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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: donna.cav on Thursday 05 January 23 04:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I've hit a brick wall finding details of an ancestor; James Drumm (Drummond). I can see he arrived in Adelaide, South Australia from Plymouth, under last name "Drunner" in 1979 aboard "Salisbury" with wife Frances M (nee. Chapel or Rees/e) and son, Arthur J. The Biographical Index of South Australia indicates James was born on 5 Feb 1851 in Greenock, Scotland. I can't find any record of his birth. I've also not found record of his death. Frances' hospital records in 1904 indicate his was deceased by this stage (marital status: W), so I believe he passed somewhere between his arrival and 1904. I also believe he was a police officer in South Australia following his arrival.
Please feel free to :)refer to my Ancestry tree, profile for James Drumm (Drummond), which contains specifics and additional evidence, sources, etc:
https://www.ancestry.com.au/family-tree/person/tree/42347091/person/332431902679/facts
If anyone is able to assist with finding any new information, particularly regarding his death, birth, or circumstances surrounding his disappearance from records that would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks in advance,
Donna
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Hi Donna
I've tried to view your tree on Ancestry but it's private. Are you able to change it to public?
Kind regards
Debbie :)
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I can't find any record of his birth.
His marriage cert should name his father and give an occupation.
Is it this one?
Marriages Jun 1872
COTTER Ellen
DRUMM James
Ganter Franz Xaver
REES Frances
Marylebone 1a 1111
Debra :)
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Was he possibly discharged in Wilcannia for misconduct?
1882
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/238467631?searchTerm=%22constable%20drumm%22
Sue
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Was this family Catholic?
Debra :)
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The daughter Frances Alice married John Edward GRAY in 1911. 247/492
And she with others of the GRAY family and mother Frances and brother Arthur are buried at West Terrace Cemetery S A.
https://aca.sa.gov.au/Records/
In Mem placed by a daughter named Alice in 1909.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88317241
Sue
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Possible Baptism record forJames Drummond
23 May 1851 Greenock
Parents - James Drummond and Margaret Orr
Added: I'm not convinced this is the correct family.
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There are 1 South Australian Police Gazette items about James DRUMM.
One in NSW.
And I see one regarding Arthur too.
Sue
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You have possibly already seen this - Police Constable James DRUMM in 1881
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/94761542 (middle of the first column)
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And another James DRUMM telegraph operator and postal assistant at Murrumburrah transferred to Trangie in 1888. Uncertain if this is your man.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13698106
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Arthur James DRUMM
Birth registration in December Quarter 1872 in Marylebone
Mother’s maiden name – REES
DRUMM, ARTHUR JAMES Mother: REES
GRO birth Reference: 1872 D Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 513
Also a daughter born in 1874 who died a few months later.
DRUMM, EMILY MAUD Mother: REES
GRO birth Reference: 1874 J Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 526
ADDED
Passenger list for arrival in Adelaide has James’ occupation as Plasterer, nationality English, born abt 1850
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Was this family Catholic?
Debra :)
When James Arthur DRUMM was admitted to the Adelaide Hospital in Oct 1887 with contusion of the lower lip, he was stated as religion being RC. He lvived at Wright Street.
When Frances DRUMM was amitted in 1887 with eye problems , she was stated as being C of E and living in Wright Street and 9 years in the colony. ADDING (edit) States W (widow ) as marital status
In the section 'Under What circumstances Admitted' the letters D B O.
I seem to remember a R’chat converstion about these initials and they may mead Destitute Board Order.
Another record of Arthur's admission in 1894 shows suffering syphilis.
Sue
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The BISA entry which our OP may be looking at as mentioned. Inconsistencies here. ::)
DRUMM, James, b 1851 Greenock RFW, Scot. Died after 1881. Arrived by 1879. Occupation Policeman, Labourer. Resided Adelaide. Religion RC. Married Frances, nee CHAPPLE.
Parents ? and Mary nee REES, born c. 1855
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So from the opening post "James was born on 5 Feb 1851"
Where does this date come from?
There is a RC baptism for a James Drumm in Glasgow in November 1851. This seems unlikely.
I wonder where BISA gets their information from?
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It comes from many sources, not all supported by documentation
"Apart from Society members, the material came from individuals, archives and public records such as church registers, ships’ passenger lists, and burial records; private papers which include, wills, family bibles, birthday books, and letters of administrations."
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According to the NSW records about James DRUMM,policeman. Reg number 4009
NSW Archives.
Appointed in NSW in Oct 1881
https://mhnsw.au/collections/state-archives-collection/
He was born Ireland in 1853.
Sue
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I can see he arrived in Adelaide, South Australia from Plymouth, under last name "Drunner" in 1979 aboard "Salisbury" with wife Frances M (nee. Chapel or Rees/e) and son, Arthur J.
In the birth registration of their daughter Frances Alice, his wife's name is Frances Mary Chappell.
Surname: DRUMM
Given Names: Frances Alice
Date of Birth: 08-Oct-1881
Gender: F
Father: James DRUMM
Mother: Frances Mary CHAPPELL
Birth Residence: North Adelaide
District: Adelaide
Book/Page: 269/465
And yes, Fances' death registration confirms James died before her.
Surname: DRUMM
First Names: Frances
Death Date: 26-Aug-1904
Age: 50
Gender: F
Marital Status: W
Place of Death: Adelaide
Residence: Adelaide
Relative: James DRUMM (DH)
District: Adelaide
Book/Page: 304/224
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Dismissed as NSW Probationary Constable in February 1882
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article251643916
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In the birth registration of their daughter Frances Alice, his wife's name is Frances Mary Chappell.
I think she was illegitimate - father CHAPEL, mother REES, which is why she used both names.
Debra :)
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Is this all the same James Drum, or are there 2 men with the same name?
James DRUMM in foot police in Sth Aust in 1879
Sth Aust Newspaper has him discharged on 31st Aug 1881
NSW Police service record has James DRUMM (Born Ireland 1853) appointed 3 Oct 1881
NSW Police gazette has James dismissed Feb 1882
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Is this all the same James Drum, or are there 2 men with the same name?
James DRUMM in foot police in Sth Aust in 1879
Sth Aust Newspaper has him discharged on 31st Aug 1881
NSW Police service record has James DRUMM (Born Ireland 1853) appointed 3 Oct 1881
NSW Police gazette has James dismissed Feb 1882
The same thought occurred to me and then I wondered if he simply moved from one police force in SA to the other in NSW and nobody actually checked his standing records.
We know these things happen (still) :o
So we see a change of birthplace and age in NSW from the SA records- making himself a tiny bit younger of course ;D
Still not performing well and is again dismissed.
Did he then head of to Trangie to be an assistant at the postal service there. Perhaps he was literate, an advantage to employment in rural parts in those times.
Just thoughts really.
Sue
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Yes, I was thinking along similar lines. Also, just because Frances says she is a widow, or her children do, doesn't necessarily mean he died. He may have left the family. :-\
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A bit more digging..... :D
I think the post office employee chap is not the same man as the policeman.
Here he has one 'm' to his surname and a middle name (Matthew).
Therefore not the person of interest.
This is a lengthy 1920 account of one his retirement gatherings. He leaves the role of Harden Post Master and moves on to Sydney.
Worth a read to see if others agree with me.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/214461234
Here is the probable death of the Postal man in NSW-
DRUM James Matthew
23151/1954
Father JOHN
Mother ESTHER JANE
At HAY
And his mother referred to in the item-
DRUM Esther Jane
18314/1942
Father James Edward
Mother Ann Jane
At HAY
Sue
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Hi All,
Wow, thanks for all your input! My post went a little quiet for a while so I assumed it got lost somewhere in the internet and forgot about it! I've now changed my tree to 'public'.
For clarity, Arthur J Drummond is my g.great grandfather (my grandfather is Brian Drummond, as per the family tree).
I have since obtained a few additional records from GRO gov UK:
- James Drumm. (24y) and Frances Rees' (21y) marriage certificate Marylebone, Middlesex London - m. 12 Jun 1872. James' profession listed as Police Constable D. Division (Marylebone). Residence at marriage 22 John Street North, both Frances and James. Fathers James Drumm (deceased, carpenter), and John Rees (deceased, stone-mason).
- Arthur James Drumm. b. 11 Oct 1872 matching the details above incl. address.
- James Drumm's Policing joining date 13 Nov. 1971 (D division), and then it appears that he has joined the police force upon his arrival in 1879 in SA.
- Frances Drumm.'s hospital records in SA 1887 record her as widowed (so it would appear James' death was before '87), arrived on Salisbury ship 9 yrs prior (i.e. 1879).
- Arthur J Drumm's hospital records confirm his birth in London, arrival on Salisbury.
- Arthur J Drumm's marriage certificate has James Drumm (his father) listed as Drummond. I believe it is Drumm (with two m's), an abbreviated version of Drummond (my Mum's maiden name).
To clarify other details:
- James Drumm has been confirmed as Roman Catholic.
- I'm not convinced James' parents were James and Margaret Orr, as I have followed through these details which do not match with my James Drumm.
- it's hard to know whether James 'abandoned' his family to move interstate. I haven't found him on the records of abandoning wife and children, though doesn't exclude the possibility. I believe there were other James Drummond's in both Vic and NSW, which don't appear to match my records. I can't remember how I came to this conclusion, but its always possible I've overlooked something.
To complicate matters further, there has been a story passed down that either my g.great or g.g.great grandmother was 'asian', specifically a woman who married a drummond (though not confirmed at this stage) in my direct lineage. We had no reason to doubt this as the Drummond's had obvious Asian facial features. My Mums DNA test has since confirmed approx. 7% Chinese decent. We'd love to know more about where this fits in, but we're really stuck with this too. Any thoughts?
I think she was illegitimate - father CHAPEL, mother REES, which is why she used both names.
I wonder whether this is where the Chinese DNA fits in?
The only details I have not officially confirmed with records is James Drumm.'s DOB as 5 Feb 1851, which I found in the BISA. There seems to be about a 5 yr discrepancy in their recorded birth year with that of his marriage record, but have connected these records through other details. Other than that, I generally try to find official records rather than borrowing from other family trees as it's easy to get it wrong.
Thanks again!