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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: rpweedon on Monday 02 January 23 17:10 GMT (UK)
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I own a lovely painting of this bloke but have no idea who he might be. Ideas?
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The uniform seems to be of a senior officer in the Indian Army, ie British army in India, probably 1860's.
I came across a painting of Field Marshal Sir Patrick Grant 1804-95, wearing a similar tunic, but he is not the subject.
I can see why you like it, his face especially is painted beautifully.
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Get a Medal Expert to identify those Medals to Help identify him
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Hello
It looks like he is wearing the shoulder rank of a general - single crown, 1 Bath star, and crossed sword and baton.
The key would be identified the medals and decorations he is wearing. The middle medal on his breast looks like a Crimea medal with four clasps. Not sure about the others.
Best wishes
Brian
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea_Medal
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https://honours.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about/orders-and-medals/
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Possibly General George Campbell of Inverneil?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Campbell_of_Inverneill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Campbell_of_Inverneill)
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Possibly Field Marshal Sir Donald Martin Stewart who served in India:
https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/field-marshal-sir-donald-martin-stewart-18241900-179492
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Donald_Stewart,_1st_Baronet
Tony
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Good attempt Hollander Well Done - BUT
Sadly None of his Medals match up with the Post
or his Medals awarded which were more.
Just need to gone down all the CB awards to find him.
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The 'clincher' is likely to be the neck order he is wearing. It looks like it could be quite an uncommon award which would narrow down the options. Any chance you could take a closer photo of it ? Also, he was a GCB (denoted by the star and sash with award attached at the bottom of his sash) so that narrows down the options as well. That would rule out General Campbell of Inverneill.
Good luck with your research.
Simon
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http://www.onlinemedals.co.uk/medal-encyclopaedia/other-medals/queen-victoria-golden-jubilee-medal-1887
Medals in Order Left to Right
1st Medal on the Left = 1887 Jubilee- Silver (Not Gold or Bronze one)
2nd Medal is Crimea Medal
3rd Medal =? Still researching it
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The Centre of his Uniform
Star appears to have above it
the Crescent of the Turkish Emblem
implies from the Sultan for action in Crimea
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Medjidie
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Could the third medal be the Knights Cross of the Order of the Crown of Belgium?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Crown_(Belgium)?wprov=sfti1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Crown_(Belgium)?wprov=sfti1)
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AlanBoyd
I would agree that you have solved that 3rd one possibly?
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Hello
Another possible candidate...
General Sir Francis Seymour
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Francis_Seymour,_1st_Baronet
Has GCB (breast star)
Has Order of Medjidie (neck decoration)
Served in Crimea (second medal)
Has Legion d'Honneur (third medal?)
Can't see a Belgian decoration, if that is what the sash is, but Wikipedia suggests he was known to King Leopold I, so a possibility.
The thing that makes me think that this isn't Sir Francis is that he also had the Grand Cross of the Order of Saxe~Ernestine, which is very different from any worn by the subject in the portrait, but perhaps this was not authorised for wear in uniform?
Still just a guess though!
Best wishes
Brian
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Rockford
I would agree your Find
Nails it for sure. Though Painting done before one award : -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxe-Ernestine_House_Order
Well Done everyone for Contributions! We solved the impossible.
Sir Francis Seymour 1813 - 1890 - 11th North Devonshire Foot
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I’m afraid it is unlikely to be Sir Francis Seymour who died in 1890.
The first medal is almost certainly the 22 June 1897 Queen Victoria Diamond Jubilee Medal. The colours are very slightly off but that is likely a bit of age-discolouring. The photo also appears to have the ‘1897’ silver bar, confirming it is the 1897 Diamond Jubilee Medal. According to Wikipedia, the bar was given to those who had previously been awarded the 1887 medal so this means the man in the photo had also been awarded the 1887 Golden Jubilee Medal. Apparently the 1897 medal was awarded to, “members of the Royal Family and the court, guests at the celebrations of Queen Victoria's diamond jubilee and the soldiers and sailors that paraded that day in London”. Wikipedia states that for 1897 3,040 silver medals were awarded (in the photo the medal is clearly silver, not gold or bronze which were the other versions). So, we just need to find a General who was involved in the 1887 and 1897 Jubilee events, who was also a GCB who served in the Crimea and had the Orders of the Crown and Medjide.
Also, just to reiterate, Sir Francis Seymour died as a KCB, not a GCB. The photo has the sash and badge of a GCB.
So, whoever this portrait is of, he was still alive on 22 June 1897 and had the GCB. And he was one of the 3,040 awarded the silver version of the 1897 Diamond Jubilee Medal (having also received the 1887 version).
One other thing that might help is if the bars on the Crimea Medal painting have any text on them. Rpweedon, can you check and see if there is any text ? If there is, could you transcribe and let us know what each says. The ‘Army List’ used to detail the bars awarded for the Crimea and other campaigns so this would be very useful. Equally, a closer photo of the medals themselves would help.
Regards.
Simon
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I’m afraid it is unlikely to be Sir Francis Seymour who died in 1890.
.........
Also, just to reiterate, Sir Francis Seymour died as a KCB, not a GCB. The photo has the sash and badge of a GCB.
At least that's one general ruled out.
It's interesting that the Wikipedia article has a source for him being advanced to a GCB, when the London Gazette consistently refers to him being KCB showing that, as you say, he died a KCB.
Best wishes
Brian
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Hi, Brian,
I see in The London Gazette of 12 Aug 1890 a reference to, "General Sir Francis Seymour, Bart., K.C.B., deceased", which seems pretty definitive.
The Wikipedia reference you mention states he was advanced to GCB in 1881. Francis Seymour only appeared in the London Gazette once that year. This was to announce the retirement of, "Sir Francis Seymour, Bart., K.C.B., Colonel the Devonshire Regiment".
So, he was never GCB thus discounting him from this search.
Thanks for mentioning this though, It is a good reminder that Wikipedia is not always accurate (whilst still being a marvellous resource).
Simon
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I think we have our man.
General Sir Daniel Lysons GCB.
At Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Lysons_(British_Army_officer)
Also photo at:
https://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/U324362/The-late-General-Sir-Daniel-Lysons-GCB?t=2&q=General+Sir+Daniel+Lysons
And:
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/general-sir-daniel-lysons-g-c-b-constab-e-of-h-m-tower-news-photo/464751373
All the medals match up and he looks like the same man.
Simon
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Here is some bio detail as well from 'Armorial Families' of 1895.
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One of the photos for ease of reference.
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And another.
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I don't think it's General Lysons either.
If the portrait that started our quest is true to life, Gen Lysons appears to be at least one battle clasp short on his Crimea Medal.
Best wishes
Brian
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Hi, Brian,
I noticed that and it does bug me. Various Army Lists state Gen. Lysons had three Crimea clasps.
But I was also bugged by the Medjidie award in the photo. The crescent is reversed from the actual award.
The Belgian award painting bugged me further. The Order of the Crown has a green wreath above it to connect to the ribbon. The Order of Leopold has a crown for the same purpose but has only a four pointed star. On the painting it looks like a five-pointed star but with a crown connecting it to the ribbon. That could be a trick of the eye, but I do not see any green paint above the star.
Everything else seems to fit but the above niggles are why I asked the original poster to take better resolution photos. Painters can get things wrong but possibly three things wrong would be a bit of a stretch. Unless they were working from notes after just one or two sittings.
All that said, I can't imagine there being that may Generals with a GCB (in itself a very rare grade even in Victorian times), the Medjidie award, the Crimea medal and the Belgian award.
Attached also is an 1882 portrait of Sir Daniel Lysons. I have to say, he looks very similar.
But, as always, happy to be shown as having got it wrong.
Simon
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Back again,
Whatever the 1st medal, he has them out of order. That one should be 2nd and another possibility for it is the 1904/5 Russo-Japanese war medal.
John915
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Good morning,
The bars for Crimea are, Alma Balaklava, Inkerman and Sebastopol. There is a 5th but for naval personnel only.
John915
This one should have appeared first.
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If the first medal is the Queen Victoria 1897 Diamond Jubilee Medal (with Clasp '1897') then his medals are not out of order. The London 5 Jan 1888 Gazette Supplement to the 1887 award stated that, "This Medal is ... to be worn ... after the Decorations of Orders, and before War Medals". This precedence of Jubilee, Coronation and Durbar medals was apparently changed in 1918 and published in The London Gazette of 22 April 1921. All credit here to the people who cited the sources in the relevant Wikipedia pages. It might seem strange to us that the precedence was once like this but at one stage the VC had a lower precedence than certain honours.
On the suggestion that the first medal is the 1904/05 Russo/Japanese War Medal, I'm not sure why a British General (or indeed any British Serviceman) would have been granted that medal but a Google search shows that medal had a horizontal bar to attach it to the ribbon whereas the medal in the portrait is suspended by a ring (as well as having a bar of some form).
In the meantime, hopefully the original poster will at some stage take some closer photos of the medals that might include some more detail to allow further research.
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Meanwhile …
I was bugged (see earlier post) by the third medal and the Belgian Order of the Crown that a poster thought it could be. The ‘bug’ was the device connecting the medal to the ribbon.
I think what the General has is the French Legion d’Honneur. All credit here to the research of ‘GrafVonEbbell’ for his graphic on Wikipedia for how the design of the award changed over time. Of significance here, from 1852-1870 (the Second Empire) the award was surmounted by a crown. After the establishment of the Third Republic the crown was, understandably, replaced by a wreath. The crimson ribbon remained unchanged. In the portrait there is a rosette on the ribbon indicating this was the award of an ‘Officier’ (i.e. ‘Officer’) of the Order.
So, the sitter in the portrait was awarded his Legion d’Honneur sometime between 1852 and 1870. Presumably in relation to his service in the Crimea (where the French were our allies).
For reference, see:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Legion_d’Honneur_Evolution.png
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Honour
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This thread is proving to be a masterclass in how to identify Victorian Honours and Awards. According to this Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_recipients_of_the_L%C3%A9gion_d%27Honneur_for_the_Crimean_War) the Légion d'Honneur was awarded to 746 members of the British Armed Forces during the Crimean War, including General Sir Francis Seymour (ruled out by SiGr on page 3) and General Sir Daniel Lysons who I assume is still in the running, despite Rockford's earlier doubts.
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Is this him at a younger age.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/General_Frederick_Horn.jpg
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He does bear some resemblance ,allowing for age , to Gonville Broomhead, of Rorke’s Drift.
Played by Michael Caine in the film Zulu .
I have no knowledge of Military Medals so am unable to comment on those.
Just a long shot.
Viktoria.
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Hi, hepburn,
Gen Sir Frederick Horn is an interesting suggestion.
Of note, he and Gen Lysons both had the GCB, Legion d’Honneur, Crimea Medal, Sardinian Crimea Medal and the Turkish Crimea Medal as well as the Order of the Medjidie, 3rd Class. The only difference here, as has been mentioned before, is that Gen Lysons had three Crimea clasps whereas the sitter in the painting (and Gen Horn) has four.
So, could he be the sitter ? Maybe. The one niggle I have here is the first medal in the row - what appears to be the Queen Victoria 1897 Diamond Jubilee Medal with Clasp ‘1897’. If that is correct, then that would exclude Gen Horn as (according to Wikipedia) he died in 1894.
I agree that the two men do not look entirely dissimilar so, if the 1897 Jubilee medal is wrong, you might be correct. That said, you mention the Wikipedia picture might be a ‘younger’ version of him. As he became a GCB in 1889, he was approx. 84 or older when that painting was done of him - so I would think he should look almost exactly similar to the sitter but the resemblance is not what I would call a strong match.
As mentioned before, if we ever get a close-up of the original medals from the original poster that might help resolve this matter.
ATB
Simon
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Hats off to you diligent sleuths! I admire your tenacity and knowledge. Here is close-up photo of sitter's medals. Painting is only 9" by 11" so medal detail limited. I was told the sitter is Wincheslea but I have my doubts hence my inquiry. Hopefully accompanying picture will help resolve my question.
Peter
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Happy to post additional pics if needed!
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Simon,
No visible text next to the Crimea medal.
Peter
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Two more pics which might help!
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Back again for your perusal :)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Sir-Augustus-Almeric-Spencer.jpg
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Good evening,
Simon,
No visible text next to the Crimea medal.
Peter
If you mean whats on the bars then they are for the following; Alma, Balaklava, Inkerman and Sebastapol.
John915