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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: sootypea on Saturday 31 December 22 14:33 GMT (UK)

Title: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Saturday 31 December 22 14:33 GMT (UK)
Hoping someone can help. My dad was born a Toner living with his family at 42 Donore Avenue Dublin. He ran away to Manchester England changed his name to Tonay. And would never talk about his family. He told me about the address and it stuck in my mind. Through DNA I have connected to a 4th cousin but the only thing she knows is the address is correct for the family. My dad was born in 1924. He said he had brothers and sisters Mona, Pauline, and a brother Desie. I have some photographs that we found when he passed away but nobody knows who they are.

Here's hoping Donna 
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 31 December 22 18:02 GMT (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat

I see you posted on this thread way back in 2004

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=7424.45  Reply 46 refers

His 2000 death reg shows his birthdate as 20.4.1924

What name does he show for his father on his 1957 marriage cert?

What was his marital status on that cert given he was 33yrs at that time & his wife was previously married

Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Saturday 31 December 22 19:24 GMT (UK)
You could try searching these indexes https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347

You don’t give your father’s name.

1924 birth (the only one I can see for a male birth) - Patrick Francis Toner, Dublin North
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F19M-HPR

There is a Pauline in 1925 but that birth is Dublin South.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 31 December 22 22:38 GMT (UK)
Per 2000 death reg - christian names were Anthony Donald Patrick.  If he changed his surname he may have rearranged his christian names (ie) used them in a different order
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 01 January 23 05:15 GMT (UK)
Through DNA I have connected to a 4th cousin but the only thing she knows is the address is correct for the family.

Who are this cousin's most recent deceased ancestors?  Who does she know who was living at that address?

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 01 January 23 05:31 GMT (UK)

"He ran away to Manchester England changed his name to Tonay."
How did you come by this piece of information?

"And would never talk about his family."
By this do you mean that he did not volunteer information?......there was an awkward silence when anyone mentioned his family?


"He told me about the address and it stuck in my mind."
When and in what context did he tell you the address?

Do you know where he comes in birth order in his family?


Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 01 January 23 05:36 GMT (UK)


Where and when did your father marry?

Can you list all the information on the marriage certificate.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 05:37 GMT (UK)
A William Toner 43 Donore Ave died in 1958 aged 76
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1958/04378/4137269.pdf
Could you have the house number incorrect.

Looking in the newspapers this man's wife was Ellen and he's buried in Mount Jerome. He had sons daughters and sisters.

It appears when this William's wife Ellen died in 1945 they were living at 3 South Summer St. so may be a family with the same surname ended up next door to your family.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 07:47 GMT (UK)
1982 Mary (Mona) Toner Donore Ave deeply regretted by her loving brother and sister.
Also to Mount Jerome.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 07:58 GMT (UK)
1981 Desmond Toner Donore Ave son of the late William and Ellen.
regretted by brother and sisters
also to Mount Jerome.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 08:40 GMT (UK)
Great finds, Sinann  :)

I saw a few newspaper snippets - I think - advertising rooms to let at 43 Donore Avenue but they only say ‘apply Toner’ so you have solved my searches.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 09:00 GMT (UK)
There is a headstone for William and Ellen
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/photos/tombstones/1mj/mt-jerome-182/target124.html
Hard to read but there is a transcript here
https://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/photos/tombstones/1mj/mt-jerome182.htm

but I was hoping to find Desmond and Mona to maybe get their ages but no joy so far
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 09:09 GMT (UK)
There are a few small ads for the 3 South Summer St address as well
including one in 1924 by Wm Toner for a house to let in Knockrow Delgany Wicklow
Wonder could there be a family connection to Wicklow.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 09:24 GMT (UK)
These records seem to show that there are children older than those born around 1920s  :-\
Ellen’s death certificate mentions Patricia Toner.
Marriage 1935
William Toner and Patricia. The address fits - South Summer Street
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1935/08945/5237710.pdf

William Snr’s  occupation is a Carrier. This might be 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Merchant_s_Quay/Summer_St_/70706/

William, b Wicklow and a Carrier.

William jnr birth - father a Carman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01583/1637232.pdf

These might fit with the ‘horse dealer’ mention.

It would be good to know who Mr Tonay, Manchester, mentions as his father on his marriage.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 10:07 GMT (UK)
Thank you for all your replies. I am afraid what I have written is really all I know. The second cousin doesn't remember him. The problem I have is he had forged documents. On his marriage cert, he has his father as Peter Toner Hoarse trader. The other problem is all that generation has passed away.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 10:36 GMT (UK)
You have named those siblings.
Were they older/younger?
Any other information about them?

It is odd that you have that address. When did he live there? Was it when he was a child or an adult? How old was he when he ran away?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 10:46 GMT (UK)
Through DNA I have connected to a 4th cousin but the only thing she knows is the address is correct for the family.

Who are this cousin's most recent deceased ancestors?  Who does she know who was living at that address?

Debra  :D

Have you seen the 4th cousin’s tree?
Who are the Toner ancestors?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 01 January 23 10:51 GMT (UK)
Marriage William TONER and Ellen STAFFORD. 

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1907/10108/5677603.pdf

Births with mother's maiden surname STAFFORD up to 1921.

William 1910

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01583/1637232.pdf

Mary 1912

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01503/1610422.pdf

John 1916

Notation: There is currently no image to display. This may be because the record was registered or amended in a later year, or there are quality issues with the original image.

Peter  1920

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1920/01217/1506160.pdf

Debra  :D

Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 10:55 GMT (UK)
There are a few trees with mention of this family.
One shows:
Pauline Toner b 1925 as a child of William and Ellen.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 01 January 23 10:57 GMT (UK)
Also John, born 1908 died 1909.  Father and occupation are incorrect on the birth registration.

Birth

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01646/1657230.pdf

Death

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1909/05471/4531490.pdf

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 11:16 GMT (UK)
Catherine Toner
Catherine Toner
My Family Tree
Birth
10 Jan 1894•Rathdrum, Ireland
Death
20 November 1974•

This lady shows up as my great Aunt through DNA
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 01 January 23 11:25 GMT (UK)
This Joseph Augustine also shows as a son on family trees but I do not see a birth reg.  His address and father at marriage are a match.  He was a minor in 1938 but surely he wasn't born after 1921.  They say he was born c1920 so I wonder if he is 'Peter' with a later change of name.  I cannot see a marriage or death for Peter.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1938/08890/5215256.pdf

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 11:32 GMT (UK)
Catherine Toner
Catherine Toner
My Family Tree
Birth
10 Jan 1894•Rathdrum, Ireland
Death
20 November 1974•

This lady shows up as my great Aunt through DNA

Her father looks to be John Toner.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Kilcoole/Knockroe/896657/

John Toner (Kilcoole)  death 1924
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Kilcoole/Knockroe/896657/

The informant - W Toner, son, 3 Sth Summer Street.
This takes us back to our information re William Toner /Sth Summer Street/Donore Ave
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 11:50 GMT (UK)
I know it just keeps taking me back there. I have hit a brick wall I'm afraid. I really thought the DNA would help me unlock this mystery.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 01 January 23 11:52 GMT (UK)
Catherine Toner
Catherine Toner
My Family Tree
Birth
10 Jan 1894•Rathdrum, Ireland
Death
20 November 1974•

This lady shows up as my great Aunt through DNA

If you look at her family tree you will see that they have her as William TONER's sister.

Catherine's birth:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02274/1854234.pdf

William's birth:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02944/2078640.pdf

This birth was in 1878.  In 1911 William said he was aged 29 and born Wicklow, in 1901 he was 21 and born Wicklow.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 11:55 GMT (UK)
I know it just keeps taking me back there. I have hit a brick wall I'm afraid. I really thought the DNA would help me unlock this mystery.

Have you asked for Toner/Stafford births after 1921 to be searched?

It all seems to fall into place.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 11:57 GMT (UK)
Have you asked for Toner/Stafford births after 1921 to be searched?

It all seems to fall into place.

How do I do that?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 12:04 GMT (UK)
In your earlier post, you mention trying to get his birth certificate.
Certificates are now dealt with by HSE, I think. See here.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/irish-records-what-is-available/civil-records


You say your father ‘ran away’ which implies a young person, I think. Also ‘forged documents’ - do you mean he just falsified names on his marriage?

I noticed that Joseph Augustine’s tree has a couple of photos. Have you looked at these to compare with the ones you have - or any other trees which might have photos?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 01 January 23 12:17 GMT (UK)
I agree that your next step would be to have another search done for his birth registration.  Someone else might know how much info you need to supply as there seems to be conflicting advice on the GRO's website.

If possible you need to just give them the surname and William TONER and Ellen STAFFORD as parents, birthplace Dublin, and years as 1921 to 1924 which is between Peter and Pauline.  It may be that all the info you have is false regarding his first names and date of birth.

This just says to supply enough information for the registers to be searched.

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/images/content/cert-request(english).pdf

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 12:24 GMT (UK)
If possible you need to just give them the surname and William TONER and Ellen STAFFORD as parents, birthplace Dublin, and years as 1921 to 1924 which is between Peter and Pauline.  It may be that all the info you have is false regarding his first names and date of birth.

Hi, this is what I think. I do believe the name and date of birth are false. I have tried the registry office a few times. I have looked through thousands of photos on all these boards. 
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 12:32 GMT (UK)
On the positive side, your father gave you an address which has been found related to William Toner.
We know that William Toner is Catherine’s brother so that would make sense - grandfather and great aunt in your DNA.
His occupation was connected to horses too.

Could the photographs you have be dated - approximately.

I wondered if he was already married when he married your mother - hence the change of name and ‘running away’.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 12:39 GMT (UK)
W Toner is still putting ads in the newspapers from 3 South Summer St in 1954. I don't see any after that.

There was also a family called Lawlor (Carriers) at 3 South Summer St, who owned stables on Island Street Usher's Island. Perhaps William worked for them.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 12:46 GMT (UK)
That rang a bell, Sinann. I had seen some Toner/Lawlor births one time.
Marriage 1920
James Toner and Margaret Lawlor (her address 3 South Summer Street)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09260/5352446.pdf
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 12:47 GMT (UK)
I wondered if he was already married when he married your mother - hence the change of name and ‘running away’.

Marion was his first wife.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 12:52 GMT (UK)
That rang a bell, Sinann. I had seen some Toner/Lawlor births one time.
Marriage 1920
James Toner and Margaret Lawlor (her address 3 South Summer Street)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09260/5352446.pdf

When Christopher Lawlor died in 1930 the informant was Margaret his daughter, when I looked at it I though her surname was Toner but had doubts
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1930/04914/4333282.pdf
I was just going to post it and ask what people thought
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 12:56 GMT (UK)
There was also a brother James to William and Catherine.
Maybe Anthony Tonay was a son of James?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 12:59 GMT (UK)
There was also a brother James to William and Catherine.
Maybe Anthony Tonay was a son of James?

You have this relationship in your tree, Donna.
What made you decide on this?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 13:01 GMT (UK)
Ignore this I'm talking nonsense
This could be James in 1901, there is a daughter Margaret (Morgaret)
He's born Meath and bit old for children born in the 1920s
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Inns_Quay/Dorset_St__Upper/1279326/
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 13:03 GMT (UK)
This is the one I meant
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Kilcoole/Knockroe/896657/

Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 13:20 GMT (UK)
Don't mind me I was getting the bride and groom confused
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 13:30 GMT (UK)
I don’t want to overload the information but as Donna has James Toner as a possible father to her father, there are a couple more records.
Margaret’s address on Christopher Lawlor’s death was Newport Street.

There are deaths here - Margaret aged 1 yr
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1928/04948/4345632.pdf

and John 4 yrs
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1929/04933/4340207.pdf

There is a newspaper snippet re John who was missing and then found in the Grand Canal.

There are current references to a family firm re James and Margaret.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 13:30 GMT (UK)
When William Toner 43 Donore Ave died in 1958 probate was granted to a William Toner
Page 546
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01gvs/

and when Desmond died probate was granted to Joseph Toner (lorrie driver)
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01s0p/
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 14:20 GMT (UK)
Again, good finds Sinann. This links Joseph and Desmond.

As Donna was given the Donore Ave address, I am more inclined to think that William and Ellen are main characters in this.

The link re Desmond isn’t working for me. I found William’s though.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 14:29 GMT (UK)
This is so helpful. You have all been brilliant in helping me. Thank you so much. Now just got to figure out which one is he.
 
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 14:39 GMT (UK)
Took me ages to find Mary/ Mona's death again.
Make a note this time
Evening Hearld Oct 4 same date as death
it says late of Donore Ave so looks like she wasn't living there at the time she died,
There is a Mary Toner 12 Madden Road death 4 Oct 1982 probate granted to Pauline Sharkey
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01s0q/
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 14:41 GMT (UK)
I found Pauline Toner’s marriage to Kevin Sharkey in the indexes earlier - 1951.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 14:42 GMT (UK)
This is so helpful. You have all been brilliant in helping me. Thank you so much. Now just got to figure out which one is he.
 

How did you arrive at James Toner in your tree?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 14:49 GMT (UK)



How did you arrive at James Toner in your tree?

Hi, I tried to do the reverse lookup using the DNA
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 14:51 GMT (UK)
I found Pauline Toner’s marriage to Kevin Sharkey in the indexes earlier - 1951.

Death notice June 2005 Pauline Sharkey nee Toner.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 15:06 GMT (UK)
Again, good finds Sinann. This links Joseph and Desmond.

As Donna was given the Donore Ave address, I am more inclined to think that William and Ellen are main characters in this.

The link re Desmond isn’t working for me. I found William’s though.

Gosh yes I did the washing up waiting on that page to load
probably quicker to use this http://www.cigo.ie/pages/guide-to-wills-and-administrations/ click on 1981 and Desmond is on page 767
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 15:14 GMT (UK)

Gender:   Male
Marital Status:   Single
Age:   19
Birth Year:   abt 1892
Birth Place:   Co Wicklow
Residence Date:   2 Apr 1911
House Number:   8
Townland/Street:   Knockroe
District:   Kilcoole
County:   Wicklow
Country:   Ireland
Electoral District:   Kilcoole
Literacy:   Read and write

I have two DNA matches with James Through lines suggest he's my paternal Grandfather
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 15:17 GMT (UK)
Found Desmond’s probate  :)
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 15:21 GMT (UK)

Gender:   Male
Marital Status:   Single
Age:   19
Birth Year:   abt 1892
Birth Place:   Co Wicklow
Residence Date:   2 Apr 1911
House Number:   8
Townland/Street:   Knockroe
District:   Kilcoole
County:   Wicklow
Country:   Ireland
Electoral District:   Kilcoole
Literacy:   Read and write

I have two DNA matches with James Through lines suggest he's my paternal Grandfather

That is the one we mentioned earlier - brother to William and Catherine. There are a couple of births in the indexes Toner/Lawlor but mother’s name only shows on later ones.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347

Added
It is the Donore Avenue information which confuses this though - William or James
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 15:22 GMT (UK)
It's also the same place William was putting up for rent
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 15:23 GMT (UK)
This is my dad when he was a very young man
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 15:24 GMT (UK)
The birth certificate of Pauline might help.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F19F-2P5
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Sunday 01 January 23 15:26 GMT (UK)

It is the Donore Avenue information which confuses this though - William or James

Are they near each other ? and could William have remarried?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 17:00 GMT (UK)
Who did we think Joseph Toner was?
There is a marriage Joseph Toner 3 South Summer St father William
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1938/08890/5215256.pdf
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 17:11 GMT (UK)
Was it Debra who found that information and wondered if Joseph Augustine was Peter at birth?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Sunday 01 January 23 17:26 GMT (UK)
and yet there is a Joseph Toner on Desmond's probate.

Very confusing family.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 17:30 GMT (UK)
It is confusing because I think I thought  ;) that the children were all children of William and Ellen and James and Margaret had (obviously) a different family.
I would hope that Pauline might be a clue.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Sunday 01 January 23 17:46 GMT (UK)
When are we going on Mastermind  ;)

More information  ::)

Earlier I posted James Toner’s marriage to Margaret Lawlor. Her address was 3 Sth Summer Strret and his address was 16, Watkins Bds.

I just saw a birth for a child of Catherine Toner (Donna’s great aunt), Henry Roberts, and the address is 16 Watkins Buildings - a close family.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1919/01249/1519052.pdf
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Monday 02 January 23 12:03 GMT (UK)
Sorry I got Hyjacked yesterday. Friends and family arrived with bottles::) If you lot are confused! What hope have I got  :'(
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Monday 02 January 23 12:22 GMT (UK)
Sorry I got Hyjacked yesterday. Friends and family arrived with bottles::) If you lot are confused! What hope have I got  :'(

Well we have got somewhere since you posted albeit a maze of names  ;)

I would stick with Donore Ave since you know dad told you the address and those sibling names.
There is a birth for Pauline and, I think, deaths for Mary (Mona) and Desmond but I don’t think we have ages for them to find births as they died more recently.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Tuesday 03 January 23 17:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks to all of you I have spoken to another cousin. Who said Donore avenue and summer street were family homes. She is William Augustine's granddaughter. And no one knows anything about my dad. She has put me in touch with a living Toner Bill Toner S.J. So fingers crossed we might get somewhere  :)
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 03 January 23 17:29 GMT (UK)
I hope so  :)
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 03 January 23 17:37 GMT (UK)
Should that be Joseph Augustine?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Tuesday 03 January 23 17:42 GMT (UK)
Should that be Joseph Augustine?

Sorry yes::) Too many names  ;D
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Tuesday 03 January 23 21:13 GMT (UK)
I've been trying to get a chance to read over this entire thread as I was missing bits as I was searched the other day.
I was thinking to make sense of the DNA matches you need to know the earlier family, I know you have been tracking some of them already but I was trying to see if I could find all of them.

John Toner (farmer) Knockrow married Catherine Connolly in 1875
In the 1911 Census they say they have 7 children 6 living.
In 1901 the family are in Dublin as Tonar, note John occupation.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Merchants_Quay/South_John_s_Street/1300312/
by 1911 they are back in Wicklow
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Kilcoole/Knockroe/896657/
Children
1 Peter 1876 married Elizabeth Carroll in 1898
2 William 1878 married Ellen Strafford 1907
3 John 1882
4 Norah 1886 Likely the one who died as not in 1901 Census with family
5 Margaret 1889
6 James 1891 - 1956 married Margaret Lawlor 1920 a daughter Johanna died 1971 and two posted earlier.
7 Catherine 1894 likely married John Roberts but marriage not found

Does that make sense and can any of the gaps be filled?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Wednesday 04 January 23 09:10 GMT (UK)
Well, what can I say with your help I have managed to speak with a living relative.

Thank you all so much. Now to find my dad's birth cert.










Tue, 3 Jan at 22:23

Yes, Donna, you have definitely reached the right person.  You and I are second cousins, so I am very pleased to make your acquaintance.  Mona, Pauline and Dessie were my aunts and uncle.  There were four other siblings, William (my father), Seamus (who died in the 1918 flu), Joseph, and Sean.  They are all now deceased.   My grandfather, also William Toner, had five siblings, Ciss, Jim, Margaret, Johnny, and Peter.  I never met Peter.  I was told that he was a bit ‘wild’ and had gone to England! The family seemed to have lost touch.  A cousin told me that he thought that Peter had a son called Don and perhaps a daughter, though perhaps the daughter was Don’s daughter (yourself).  The notes are unclear.


I don’t really do family history.   My sister, Elsie, who died in 1994 aged 57 had some interest in that, and traced out a rough family tree, and after she died I fleshed it out to some extent and explored the Grantham connection on my mother’s side.  I hope to be able to send you tomorrow the family tree I made out (father’s side only) and Elsie’s earlier sketch, which mentions Peter (England) and Don and the word ‘daughter’.  Elsie’s sketch is on the back of a large irregularly shaped calendar page so I will have to send it in parts that you can fit together if you want.  She has written down a few names that I don’t have and has also covered my mother’s side of the family.

 

Elsie was my only sibling and was unmarried and had no children, and as a Catholic priest I had no children either.  I am now 83.  I keep contact with a few of my cousins (mostly Pauline’s family) but have lost touch with most of them, and sadly do not always hear of deaths among the rather large number of them.  The family tree does not include any details about them, though I could give you further information about some of them.   Some did well in life, and one of them, Stephen Donnelly (centre left of my tree) is the Minister for Health in the Irish government.  I am further down on the left, as ‘Billy’.

 

My grandfather, Peter’s brother, did some haulage, including with horse and cart, and had a large piggery on South Summer Street.  When that street was redeveloped, they moved to 42-3 Donore Avenue, which they seemed to own already.   I remember visiting Mona and Dessie there.  When I was a small child there was still grazing land a mile or so from Donore Avenue.

 

It is getting late so must finish for now.  I still drive to the office in the Jesuit HQ early each morning and do some work there.  I live in the suburbs of Dublin with one other Jesuit priest.  Our numbers are declining fast!

 

Best wishes.

 

Bill
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 04 January 23 10:43 GMT (UK)
If I'm reading that correctly your father is the Peter born 1920 that we couldn't find anything more on
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1920/01217/1506160.pdf
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Wednesday 04 January 23 10:46 GMT (UK)
If I'm reading that correctly your father is the Peter born 1920 that we couldn't find anything more on
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1920/01217/1506160.pdf

No apparently my grandfather is Peter
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:04 GMT (UK)
He said he had brothers and sisters Mona, Pauline, and a brother Desie.

I think that the idea is that these are cousins to Anthony, not siblings, that is if Anthony's father was Peter and their father was William.

I can see Peter born 1876 with his wife Elizabeth and one son in Dublin in 1911.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:26 GMT (UK)
So it's the Peter that married Elizabeth Carroll, had a son that went to England?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:34 GMT (UK)
That is really good getting a reply so soon. I am so pleased for you.  :)

So here is Peter in 1911

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Arthur_s_Lane/85495/

still with only one child, John Joseph b 1899
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02020/1775169.pdf

Now - is he the one we are searching for?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:42 GMT (UK)
It doesn't add up, Peter's father is John and Peter only had one son John
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02020/1775169.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/South_City/Essex_Street_East/1305392/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Arthur_s_Lane/85495/
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:44 GMT (UK)
Maybe that tree will have mother's names and that it will make sense, too many men with the same names to make sense of it
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:46 GMT (UK)
The ages doesn’t make sense - Peter or John Joseph.
Anthony did not marry in England until 1950s.


Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:50 GMT (UK)
He also says James/Seamus died of flu in 1918 but James married in 1920 and I can't find a death of a James in 1918-1920.

Sorry that would be the wrong James.
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:56 GMT (UK)
I think that Peter's son John Joseph died in 1918.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05188/4432842.pdf

I suppose the question is whether Peter left the family and took up with someone else.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 04 January 23 11:57 GMT (UK)

  Mona, Pauline and Dessie were my aunts and uncle.  There were four other siblings, William (my father), Seamus (who died in the 1918 flu), Joseph, and Sean.  They are all now deceased.   My grandfather, also William Toner, had five siblings, Ciss, Jim, Margaret, Johnny, and Peter.  I never met Peter.  I was told that he was a bit ‘wild’ and had gone to England!
So there is
William
Seamus/James
Joseph
Sean/John
Mona/ Mary
Pauline
Dessie/Desmond

Earlier generation
William
Cis
Jim
Margaret
Johnny
Peter

I had this earlier generation as
1 Peter 1876 married Elizabeth Carroll in 1898
2 William 1878 married Ellen Strafford 1907
3 John 1882
4 Norah 1886 Likely the one who died as not in 1901 Census with family
5 Margaret 1889
6 James 1891 - 1956 married Margaret Lawlor 1920 a daughter Johanna died 1971 and two posted earlier.
7 Catherine 1894 likely married John Roberts but marriage not found
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 04 January 23 12:11 GMT (UK)
I think that Peter's son John Joseph died in 1918.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05188/4432842.pdf

I suppose the question is whether Peter left the family and took up with someone else.

Debra  :D

There is a Peter Toner in 1939 index, Manchester but we are not allowed to post details and, of course, may not be him at all.
Is there a death in Ireland for him?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 04 January 23 12:18 GMT (UK)
I think that Peter's son John Joseph died in 1918.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05188/4432842.pdf

I suppose the question is whether Peter left the family and took up with someone else.

Debra  :D

His death is in the newspaper John Joseph (Jack) beloved son of Peter and Elizabeth
buried Glasnevin
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Wednesday 04 January 23 12:30 GMT (UK)
I think that Peter's son John Joseph died in 1918.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1918/05188/4432842.pdf

I suppose the question is whether Peter left the family and took up with someone else.

Debra  :D

There is a Peter Toner in 1939 index, Manchester but we are not allowed to post details and, of course, may not be him at all.
Is there a death in Ireland for him?
That's him Where can I get information from
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 04 January 23 12:31 GMT (UK)
This Elizabeth Toner died 1926 is buried Glasnevin but I can't see a Peter.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1926/04991/4361418.pdf
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 04 January 23 12:37 GMT (UK)
You would have to look in Ancestry or Find my Past 1939 registers.
How do you know that’s him?

There are others with him and the address might be useful to you.

Added
There are children born in 1930s - redacted on the record but births are in indexes.

Did your dad have younger siblings in Manchester?
Title: Re: Toners Dublin
Post by: sootypea on Wednesday 04 January 23 12:55 GMT (UK)
You would have to look in Ancestry or Find my Past 1939 registers.
How do you know that’s him?

There are others with him and the address might be useful to you.

Added
There are children born in 1930s - redacted on the record but births are in indexes.

Did your dad have younger siblings in Manchester?

He always said he had brothers and sisters