RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Laois (Queens) => Topic started by: feno on Thursday 22 December 22 13:31 GMT (UK)
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hi all,am trying to verify if Murtha Fennelly, born kyle ,on 5/3/1792 to Ben and /Mary b.Murphy in Rapalagh, Durrow,Laoise,I have Murtha marrying ? Mary anne Bergin,in 1821. family.Benjamin 5/1/1822 Matthew,27/8/1824.Mary,3/1/1827, Martin,25/10/1829,John,24/10/1832.i have the bold Murtha at it again, he remarried Mary Leonard 1833 / 1836.family.bridget,B.18/10/1836.Ballacolla.Murtha.B 14/6/1844,in Kyle./kile/.I am inclined to follow the Mary Leonard thread because, /A/ the name Murtha is very strong all the way through my side,/B/ Martin crops up in the Mary Bergin marriage which is strange to see the english version of Murtha murta murty.Merry Christmas to one and all.Feno.
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hi all,am trying to verify if Murtha Fennelly, born kyle ,on 5/3/1792 to Ben and /Mary b.Murphy in Rapalagh, Durrow,Laoise,I have Murtha marrying ? Mary anne Bergin,in 1821. family.Benjamin 5/1/1822 Matthew,27/8/1824.Mary,3/1/1827, Martin,25/10/1829,John,24/10/1832.i have the bold Murtha at it again, he remarried Mary Leonard 1833 / 1836.family.bridget,B.18/10/1836.Ballacolla.Murtha.B 14/6/1844,in Kyle./kile/.I am inclined to follow the Mary Leonard thread because, /A/ the name Murtha is very strong all the way through my side,/B/ Martin crops up in the Mary Bergin marriage which is strange to see the english version of Murtha murta murty.Merry Christmas to one and all.Feno.
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Please stop quoting in your messages as it's making it very difficult to see if you are only re-quoting a previous post or trying to add something new to a thread.
I posted this on another thread of yours but you never responded to it-
HI,The information i have is not research i carried out myself,i am sure the info, on Murtha is accurate,but after reading your recent reply i am not so sure of the 1st marriage,re Mary anne Bergin.in1821.family born to Murtha and Mary anne Bergin.Benjamin,5/1822. Matthew,27/8/1824.Mary,3/1/1827.Martin,25/10/1829.John,24/10/1832. this is where the problem occurs,Bridget,18/10/1836.born in Ballacolla.Matthew,24/2/1839,born ahaboe.Murtha[2] b.14/6/1844.we have two Matthews and really two Martins,as you know murtha is the irish for Martin
was born in Kyle,
I've not come across Murta/Martin being interchangeable. Murtagh (Murdoch in Scotland) or even Mort/Mortimer but not Martin. I did quite a bit of searching online and haven't found a single reference linking Murta to the name Martin. [/quote]
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Thank you.i am finished with the whole sorry mess i got myself into,i suppose we can not always be as proficient on the keyboards as we would wish, obliged. Feno
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Happy new year to all,best wishes,
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Happy New Year to you too, feno.
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thanks Heywood.
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I've not come across Murta/Martin being interchangeable. Murtagh (Murdoch in Scotland) or even Mort/Mortimer but not Martin. I did quite a bit of searching online and haven't found a single reference linking Murta to the name Martin. [/quote]
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Not too sure re Murtagh and Martin but in Ireland Martin is often changed to Murty as have both a brother in law and a 1st cousin named Martin and both are called Murt/Murty in everyday usage.
Both are from Laois so perhaps its a regional thing ?
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Hi,yes its seems a regional thing,same as that myself, Fathers name Martin,more commonly called Murt.poor but proud.
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I can answer my own question, i think, A Michael Fennelly, Palmers hill, Ballacolla, [do not know the connection] married Mary Leonard, Aghaboe, on 25/1/1836. Also Bridget Finley, on my family tree, is Murta and Mary [Bergin's] last child. This means that Michael, and not Murtha [1] is my GGG grandfather. Thomas [1] Murtha [2] [2] and Mike,[3]. Feno.
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That’s the information that I’d found , that I could find my GGG grandad being Murty marrying Mary Bergin and not going on to marry a Mary Leonard , but i’d seen this posted on so many peoples family trees. I’d found a Michael Fennelly marrying a Mary Leonard , you’ve now also found this . I sent you a message to share the info I had cos I’m not sure how to post on here. I wonder if Murtha and Michael were siblings meaning that Ben and Bridget were still both our ancestors. Obviously Murtha the name still features in your tree as one of Mary and Micheal children , I do hope there’s still a link between us.
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...Michael Fennelly, Palmers hill, Ballacolla, [do not know the connection] married Mary Leonard, Aghaboe...
Palmershill townland, Co. Laois
https://www.townlands.ie/laois/clarmallagh/aghaboe/kildellig/palmershill/
Aghaboe townland, Co. Laois
https://www.townlands.ie/laois/clarmallagh/aghaboe/kildellig/aghaboe/
Ballacolla village about 7-8 km to the south east of both townlands.
Ballycolla t/l, Ballacolla
https://www.townlands.ie/laois/clarmallagh/aghaboe/killermogh/ballycolla/
On OpenStreetMap-
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4541255#map=13/52.8962/-7.5040
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I think Feno is local to the area but I live in Yorkshire UK but visited last summer, we visited the graveyard at Aghaboe and stayed in Ballacolla. My Grandma used to always say if ever we drove up and down an incline….. ‘ up the hill and down the holla, that’s the way to Ballacolla ‘ 😆x
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Busy trying to find if Murta and Michael are syblings .
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Feno …. Just found the marriage of Mary Leonard , as above 25.01.1836 , listed as marrying Michael on Roots Ireland , but the same marriage on Family Search as being Murt , so that’s our confusion. Still doesn’t answer whether the Murts are both the same man and that he married twice but makes some sense. I’m going to try and find out now if Mary Ann Bergin ( Fennelly) died prior to this marriage, which would make two marriages more feasible.
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Feno …. Just found the marriage of Mary Leonard , as above 25.01.1836 , listed as marrying Michael on Roots Ireland , but the same marriage on Family Search as being Murt , so that’s our confusion.
I can never understand why many people rely on transcriptions when originals are available. Especially as here, where two transcriptions differ.
Here is a link for the original parish register entry, in Aghaboe, Laois:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635288#page/112/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635288#page/112/mode/1up)
One can clearly see that the groom's Christian name is Murt.
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And here is a link for the marriage of Murtagh Fennelly to Mary Bergin in Aghaboe, Laois, on 1st December 1820 (not 1821).
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635287#page/122/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635287#page/122/mode/1up)
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I can't see why/where this Murtha/Martin question arises.
On every record I have found - both marriages, and any of the baptisms I have managed to locate (not all), the Christian name of the groom/father is Murt/Murtha - no sign of Martin, unless it is a baptism I did not locate.
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I can answer my own question, i think, A Michael Fennelly, Palmers hill, Ballacolla, [do not know the connection] married Mary Leonard, Aghaboe, on 25/1/1836.
The original register clearly shows Murt Fennelly marying Mary Leonard.
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Hi thanks for the reply. I’d realised that Murt and ‘Michael’ were one and the same . Finding a transcript is obviously easier than scrolling through records when you’re not sure of dates etc , I could see looking at the original how this had been transcribed though but then that sets you off down a rabbit hole . Thanks for looking . The info just linked our families to the same man but with the respective wives .
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Finding a transcript is obviously easier than scrolling through records when you’re not sure of dates etc
Transcripts can help finding clues to records but you still need to look at the actual record whenever possible to avoid making stupid mistakes.
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;D would hate to cone across as stupid , thank goodness I did think to go and check the records . But all adds to the fun of searching for the information . Great that there are groups like this where you can ask and where people are willing to help others with not as much experience x
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Finding a transcript is obviously easier than scrolling through records when you’re not sure of dates etc ,
That is not how you do it. It is not a question of scrolling thru the records, versus just looking at the convenient transcript. The convenient transcript should not only give you the names, but also the date. The date then allows you to go straight to the specific original record without any need to scroll thru hundreds or thousands of entries. This double check is necessary as a high percentage of transcriptions have some error. Remember, you are much more interested in *your* ancestors than some bored unrelated transcriber in Dubuque or Delhi.
[Basically the same point Aghadowey made, but thought I would expand on it]
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What attracted me to this thread was OP's original assertion that Murtha and Martin are interchangeable. I have never hear of that, and am unaware of any documentation. I looked at the original register images to check if there was any sign of the names being interchanged. I didn't see any. As I descend from a Murtha, and have several more in my family tree, this is of some interest to me.
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What attracted me to this thread was OP's original assertion that Murtha and Martin are interchangeable. I have never hear of that, and am unaware of any documentation. I looked at the original register images to check if there was any sign of the names being interchanged. I didn't see any. As I descend from a Murtha, and have several more in my family tree, this is of some interest to me.
Perhaps it is a family 'thing' to use them interchangeably.
My large Irish family had a custom of tightly defining 'relations' and 'connections' although treating them all as family. (very useful though) Here in NZ some of the ones that would have been 'connections' back in Ireland & in earlier times in NZ referred to themselves as the 'outlaws' ;D. Then it gets complicated when connections married relations......
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My large Irish family had a custom of tightly defining 'relations' and 'connections' although treating them all as family. (very useful though) .
In my family, connections was used to imply some distance. I can say that they seem to fall into two different groups:
- Descendants/relatives of direct ancestors, where the exact details of the descent had been lost. For example, while growing up I was told that one of my Roche lines had a connection to Cosgraves. Similarly, my Hayes line had a White connection. Both turned out to be direct ancestors in those lines.
- But more generally, it was used for connections by marriage and distant cousins.