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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: anotherhugh on Wednesday 21 December 22 12:29 GMT (UK)
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Hello!
Can anyone help identify a place. My GG grandfather was born in about 1861 in a place he described in the 1921 Census (taken in Scotland) as Drumilgardner CO Derry.
In previous censuses he only ever answered to where born: as Ireland.
Am i right in thinking he meant Drumagarner? I know it appears only to be a church now but looking through older records from links on this site it seems many people are from Drumagarner.
His name is Hugh Mooney he lists on death certificate and wedding certificate his father as James Mooney; Farmer.
His mother has Elizabeth (Or Bridget) Mooney nee Kane.
I cant seem to find any records for the parents.
A lady I am related to on Ancestry has the same details on her GG Grandmothers death cert. She is Jane Mooney (Hughs sister) and has her place of birth as Killygullib which i know is right next to Drumagarner church.
They were all Catholics if that is any help!
Any pointers gratefully appreciated.
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Drumagarnet is a townland, as is Killygullib
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/loughinsholin/tamlaght-ocrilly/hervey-hill/drumagarner/
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/loughinsholin/tamlaght-ocrilly/hervey-hill/killygullib-glebe/
A townland is the smallest land division in Ireland and very useful for family research so you are very lucky to have the names.
There are quite a few people living in both townlands in 1901 including Bridget Mooney aged 97 in Killygullib
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Hervey_Hill/Killygullib_Glebe/1520688/
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6 Mooney households in Killygulib in the 1831 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughenshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygulib/52/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughenshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygulib/61/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughenshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygulib/64/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughenshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygulib/68/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygullib/70/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygullib/71/
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Drumagarnet is a townland, as is Killygullib
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/loughinsholin/tamlaght-ocrilly/hervey-hill/drumagarner/
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/loughinsholin/tamlaght-ocrilly/hervey-hill/killygullib-glebe/
A townland is the smallest land division in Ireland and very useful for family research so you are very lucky to have the names.
There are quite a few people living in both townlands in 1901 including Bridget Mooney aged 97 in Killygullib
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Hervey_Hill/Killygullib_Glebe/1520688/
Thank you for your help! Drumagarnet as a possibility, interesting. I will attach to this message the exact screenshot of text from the census return.
Between accents and the time the recorder took to get the correct answer we ended up what you see!
Hmm, Bridget could have had other children who left. I have got to balance out the dates and child bareing ages, my Hugh was born in about 1861.
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6 Mooney households in Killygulib in the 1831 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughenshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygulib/52/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughenshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygulib/61/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughenshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygulib/64/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughenshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygulib/68/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygullib/70/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Loughinshollin/Tamlaght_O_Crilly/Killygullib/71/
Thank you Elwyn! I had been on that site and for some reason it never turned up anything. Maybe i missed the right or key words.
Very interesting to see some of the names like McReynolds on there as Hughs possible sister married a McReynolds in Scotland. I suspect most of later spawn of this town upped to Dunbartonshire in Scotland and continued as normal!
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If that is the correct family in 1901, there is a death of a James Mooney aged 90 in 1897, think the informant is son James but name is difficult to read.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05867/4663151.pdf
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If that is the correct family in 1901, there is a death of a James Mooney aged 90 in 1897, think the informant is son James but name is difficult to read.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05867/4663151.pdf
Hello Sinann,
Thanks for that link! Yes, it does look like a James and it always seem to be the case that first son has the fathers name.
Attached is a snip from Hughs death certificate (1939). His year of birth is about 1858, i was mistaken previously.
You can see the names, I cant find Elizabeth Kane anywhere or any recording of Marriage. I looked in the old age pensions records too, maybe she was from somewhere else in Ireland.
I suppose when Hugh was born that would make the James you found dead in 1897 at 90 about 39-40 years old. His wife was possibly similar, so she could still have have a had a child.
What do you think?
Thanks.
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Didn't find a baptism for Hugh but did find at least 2 brothers-
Elliot Mooney, son of James & Biddy, Glebe, bapt. 1849:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633026#page/24/mode/1up
William Mooney, son of James & Biddy, Glebe, bapt. 1859:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633026#page/47/mode/1up
? https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633026#page/74/mode/1up
An earlier William Mooney of Drumagarner-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1866/11540/8244503.pdf
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In my experience farmers in Ireland married locally. They had little opportunity to marry a woman who lived any significant distance away. They were needed on the farm, most days and did their courting on foot, so you would expect Elizabeth/Bridget Kane to be local. And it is a common local name in that area. She could have come from an adjacent parish but I would expect her to have been pretty local.
Information on marriage certificates should be first hand and tends to be more reliable than that on death certificates. For that reason I’d favour Hugh’s mother being Bridget rather than Elizabeth. And I feel it likely that the Bridget still alive in 1901 is his mother (and son James his brother). She was born in Co Derry according to the census. She might have been 97 but who knows? (I am sure she didn’t). Could be out by 10 years or more. Ages can be pretty dodgy in Irish censuses and death records but if James was born around 1807, it’s possible he married before 1846 which is when the local RC marriage records (Greenlough RC parish).
Greenlough RC graveyard has a splendid noticeboard, listing every legible gravestone in the churchyard. Not sure if the records are on-line but you could check it for Mooney graves. Maghera Historical Society might be able to help.
This was the only probate file I could find for Mooney from Killygullib.
Mooney Michael of Killygullib county Londonderry farmer died 30 June 1929 Administration W/A Londonderry 9 September to Joseph Mooney farmer. Effects £48.
File is in PRONI in Belfast.
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Just noticed my typo on Drumagarner, I put a t on the end. Sorry
Eldest son is usually called after the paternal grandfather, but of course that can mean the same name for each eldest son for generations, I have at least seven generations of Patrick's farming the same land.
There is a James Mooney in Griffith's Valuation in Killygullib Glebe print date 1858, there are three James Mooney listed, could be all the same man renting different plots of land or different men.
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
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Had a look through the Valuation Revision Books on PRONI's website (Killygullib Glebe & Drumagarner are in the same volumes) and the name James Mooney appears in the earliest book (which continues from the printed version of Griffith's Valuation) from 1867 onwards. Note: this could be both James Mooney & his son James Mooney. At some point in the last book which covers 1910-1929 the name was changed to John Mooney. There's also a Michael Mooney from c1903-1929.
To correct an earlier typo- there's no such place as Drumagarnet it should read Drumagarner.
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Don't think this was posted yet?
Michael Mooney & brother Charles-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Hervey_Hill/Killygullib_Glebe/591770/
The 2 brothers ten years earlier with unmarried aunt-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Hervey_Hill/Killygullib_Glebe/1520734/
She died 1907-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05542/4554231.pdf
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In the house and building return of 1901 James is listed as the Landholder
Although not at home he is still listed as the Landholder in 1911
Number 11 this time
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002811210/
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In my experience farmers in Ireland married locally. They had little opportunity to marry a woman who lived any significant distance away. They were needed on the farm, most days and did their courting on foot, so you would expect Elizabeth/Bridget Kane to be local. And it is a common local name in that area. She could have come from an adjacent parish but I would expect her to have been pretty local.
Information on marriage certificates should be first hand and tends to be more reliable than that on death certificates. For that reason I’d favour Hugh’s mother being Bridget rather than Elizabeth. And I feel it likely that the Bridget still alive in 1901 is his mother (and son James his brother). She was born in Co Derry according to the census. She might have been 97 but who knows? (I am sure she didn’t). Could be out by 10 years or more. Ages can be pretty dodgy in Irish censuses and death records but if James was born around 1807, it’s possible he married before 1846 which is when the local RC marriage records (Greenlough RC parish).
Greenlough RC graveyard has a splendid noticeboard, listing every legible gravestone in the churchyard. Not sure if the records are on-line but you could check it for Mooney graves. Maghera Historical Society might be able to help.
This was the only probate file I could find for Mooney from Killygullib.
Mooney Michael of Killygullib county Londonderry farmer died 30 June 1929 Administration W/A Londonderry 9 September to Joseph Mooney farmer. Effects £48.
File is in PRONI in Belfast.
Thank you for all that info, its helping me tie up all the bits! Before i had the records for Elizabeth i had the news paper cutting from the attachment, so her at 97 then does add up! The cutting is a death notice from 10/10/1903.
I have found the Maghera historical society on Facebook and will give them a look!
I guess all the farmers were hoping the nearby farms were not full exclusively of sons!
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Didn't find a baptism for Hugh but did find at least 2 brothers-
Elliot Mooney, son of James & Biddy, Glebe, bapt. 1849:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633026#page/24/mode/1up
William Mooney, son of James & Biddy, Glebe, bapt. 1859:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633026#page/47/mode/1up
? https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633026#page/74/mode/1up
An earlier William Mooney of Drumagarner-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1866/11540/8244503.pdf
Thank you for the above and the other links in next posts. I will add the other relatives to my tree and see if Ancestry throws anything up! I would never have got the aunt etc. without your help.
Hugh appears to be elusive all i can find for him is the attached "possible" record, which would be for about the right year of birth 1857.
No mother, just his father and no sponsor and the not the same spelling for the father. Unusual for the father rather than a mother to be only one on the cert!
Possible or likely to be someone else?
Glebe as the location which i see comes up attached to other words a lot.
There is a sister Jane, born before Hugh looking at her death cert. before those microfilm dates.
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Just noticed my typo on Drumagarner, I put a t on the end. Sorry
Eldest son is usually called after the paternal grandfather, but of course that can mean the same name for each eldest son for generations, I have at least seven generations of Patrick's farming the same land.
There is a James Mooney in Griffith's Valuation in Killygullib Glebe print date 1858, there are three James Mooney listed, could be all the same man renting different plots of land or different men.
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
Thanks for the link. I think it could all be the same man too, with the extra children it would make sense he needed to expand.
In case people are reading this in the future i will attach Jane McReynolds Nee Mooney's death cert details from 1910 to tie them altogether.
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Thank you for all that info, its helping me tie up all the bits! Before i had the records for Elizabeth i had the news paper cutting from the attachment, so her at 97 then does add up! The cutting is a death notice from 10/10/1903.
From GRONI https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
Bridget Mooney 1st October 1903 103 Female Coleraine
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If that is the correct family in 1901, there is a death of a James Mooney aged 90 in 1897, think the informant is son James but name is difficult to read.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05867/4663151.pdf
This is the detail i had James as the possible father. So many James's!
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Thank you for all that info, its helping me tie up all the bits! Before i had the records for Elizabeth i had the news paper cutting from the attachment, so her at 97 then does add up! The cutting is a death notice from 10/10/1903.
From GRONI https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
Bridget Mooney 1st October 1903 103 Female Coleraine
Thanks you, all the same person then!
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Thank you for all that info, its helping me tie up all the bits! Before i had the records for Elizabeth i had the news paper cutting from the attachment, so her at 97 then does add up! The cutting is a death notice from 10/10/1903.
From GRONI https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
Bridget Mooney 1st October 1903 103 Female Coleraine
Oh dear transcribed as Robert on Irish Genealogy
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05648/4590066.pdf
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Thank you for all that info, its helping me tie up all the bits! Before i had the records for Elizabeth i had the news paper cutting from the attachment, so her at 97 then does add up! The cutting is a death notice from 10/10/1903.
From GRONI https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
Bridget Mooney 1st October 1903 103 Female Coleraine
Oh dear transcribed as Robert on Irish Genealogy
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05648/4590066.pdf
How did the transcriber make that mistake, Sinann?
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01s04/
It's now been reported as an error.
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James (Killygullib RC) MOONEY my 4th Great Grandfather born 1804 of Killygullib, Tamlaght O'Crilly Parish, Co Londonderry, Ireland and died 1865 Killygullib, Tamlaght O'Crilly Parish, Co Londonderry, Ireland, im not to sure about my great grandmother. Im sure she was also born in Killygullib (1803)
Also is hugh Mooney brother to William Mooney? (my 3rd Great Grandfather)
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Hi Lleyton!
Your grandmother is Bridget Mooney nee. Kane!
You are my cousin! William married Amy Sutton and is Hugh brother.
I will send you a PM on here!
Hugh
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I will send you a PM on here!
Lleyton mooney needs to make at least one more post to be able to receive a PM.
See https://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Sounds good mate