RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: goldie61 on Monday 19 December 22 02:10 GMT (UK)
-
I have come across a reference in The House of Commons Parliamentary Papers for 1814, for a 'Lewis Bertolle….. late of Mount street, Bethnal Green'.
This is on a site called ‘Trading Consequences’, where there is a transcription of some of the Parliamentary Pages, but they are not complete transcriptions of each entry, and on the whole just give names and sometimes addresses of the people mentioned. It looks as if there will be more information in the actual documents.
The link on the 'Trading Consequences' page takes you to a sign-in page for ‘Proquest’, which would seem to only be accessible for institutions such as universities and research libraries.
http://gateway.proquest.com/openurl?url_ver=Z39.88-2004&res_dat=xri:hcpp&rft_dat=xri:hcpp:fulltext:1814-004264
(‘Trading Consequences’ being a collaboration between two Canadian universities, and two UK universities).
Does anybody have any ideas as to how I can see the actual document? Or have access to Proquest?
Thanks very much
-
Their website says many libraries have an agreement with them.
https://support.proquest.com/s/article/Users-not-affiliated-with-an-institution?language=en_US
-
Have you tried
https://hansard.parliament.uk/
If you know details of why he was mentioned, you might be able to find some details.
-
Have you tried
https://hansard.parliament.uk/
If you know details of why he was mentioned, you might be able to find some details.
He's in a very, very long list of 'insolvent debtors'.
Thanks for the Hansard site.
I had a look through, but it's more to do with submitting and talking about various Bills as far as I can see.
I don't think this very long list of debtors would have been read out in the actual chamber.
Interesting site though if you were studying historical government though.
I'll check at my local library here on the other side of the world next time I go whether they can access this site. I don't hold out much hope that that librarians there will know much about it.
-
If this is about debt and insolvency, then the paper of record is The Gazette (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/ (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/))
e.g. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/17876/page/2009
-
Thanks for looking degenerate.
I have seen this before. It is for Lewis Bertolle, and is dated 1822, some 8 years or so after the entry in the Parliamentary papers for Francis Bertolle.
I think they may have been father and son, and the father, Francis, is using one of his 3 first names at this time instead of the one he usually used. The father died in 1819.
I have looked in The Gazette for Francis Bertolle around the 1813 - 1818 mark to see indeed if he is mentioned in it as a debtor, but not had any luck in finding anything.
Hey ho! :)
-
Had you already seen the apprenticeship entry?
https://www.londonroll.org/event/?company=drp&event_id=DREB3045 (https://www.londonroll.org/event/?company=drp&event_id=DREB3045)
S_L
-
Hi, you mention you're on "the other side of the world". If that's Australia, you can join the National Library of Australia for free and access online the House of Commons Parliamentary Papers along with a whole lot of other stuff of course.
Anyway, had a look, for Francis Bertolle and attached are snips from the page.
This is the listed citation:
Parliament: 1814-15
Paper Series: House of Commons Papers
Paper Number: 107
Volume Page: XI.417
Volume: 11
Collection: 19th Century House of Commons Sessional Papers
Christine.
-
Had you already seen the apprenticeship entry?
https://www.londonroll.org/event/?company=drp&event_id=DREB3045 (https://www.londonroll.org/event/?company=drp&event_id=DREB3045)
S_L
Yes thanks SL. But thanks for looking and posting it. :)
It was quite a find when these records came on-line.
-
On the other side of the Ditch Christine M! :)
I suspect it would have meant a trip into Auckland Central Research Library for me to access this, quite a mission for me from where I live.
Thanks you SOOO much for getting this. :)
It tells me a little more.
75 pounds 4 shillings was a good deal of money in 1814.
I wonder what the '-----' mean between the name and the address. According to the heading, it should give his trade, (which is really what I would have liked to have seen).
Is it like that for all the other entries on the page?
Could you post a little more of the page, so that I can compare his details with others at that time. For example, the size of his debts, whether they were all discharged, etc.
I suspect there are some more records relating to this somewhere, but goodness knows where!
There ARE records of him being committed to Newgate prison in 1813 for debt, but again, I can't find many details about him like his address or occupation. One of the records does give his age, which is helpful.
Many thanks again
-
Yes, everyone is listed same as Francis but I've attached another snippet - I don't think we're allowed to post whole pages on here.
I see you and a number of others are chasing these Bertolles and you are probably already ready aware of the baptisms of children of LFAB & Sarah Adams (on FamilySearch) where he is listed as a Dyer and addresses moving close to Bethnal Green.
In the Morning Chronicle, London, Mon Dec 9, 1822 from the London Gazette of Dec 7 under Partnerships Dissolved "H Wheatley, L Bertolle, M Wheatley of Great Garden street, White Chapel Road, Silk-Dyers" but exactly which L Bertolle - well I'll leave that up to you.
You also had another posting trying to find the Bertolles on the 1841 census and I note someone mentioned LFAB's occupation listed as Steward on marriage of dau Elizabeth to John Sergeant. Well there is a Francis Bertolle, Ship's Steward listed regarding pensions paid to East India Company personnel (attached). Attached is 1815, there are others 7 May 1817, 7 May 1818 and then the next one is Sarah Bertolle Dec 8 1819 - all the information in the snippet is exactly the same for the other Bertolle entries.
Geez, thought my Irish dudes were a headache!!
Christine.
-
Many thanks again Christine.
How annoying that for many of the other people on the page it DOES state their occupation.
Yes I've got all the pension records thanks.
And all the births etc.
I think you'll probably find that all the queries that come up about Bertolle are from me over the years! It's been a 40 year slog!
I just can't find that one piece of evidence to know for certain whether Lewis Francis Augustus Bertolle, dyer, is one and the same person as Francis Bertolle, Steward.
All the records for Lewis Francis Augustus that state he was a dyer finish about 1803 with the birth of his last daughter, and the records for 'Francis' as a Steward start about 1814, when he is said to be 45 years old. On one of his pension records it says he has been a Steward for 11 years, so this fits exactly.
There is no baptism, marriage or burial for 'Francis' - he just appears out of the blue in these debtors and pension records.
There is a marriage for Lewis Francis Augustus - to Sarah Adams in 1794 in Spitalfields.
Lewis Francis Augustus was buried August 1819, 'aged 49'. No occupation in the register.
And then as you say, 'Sarah Bertolle', widow (of 'Francis'), gets a payment from The East India Company for 'distress' just 4 months after the burial of Lewis Francis Augustus.
The 'L Bertolle' in 1822 in the Gazette is Lewis Francis Augustus's son - another Lewis.
This is 3 years after the death of LFA.
Not doing too well were they! :)
It all fits together, but I'm just missing that one bit to be really positive, even with on the (third) marriage of his daughter, saying he was a 'Steward'. He had been dead for 20 years by the time of this marriage. Although I think that may well be the 'clincher' if nothing else turns up.
I just need something more to say for certain.
Driving me nuts! :D