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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Alan of Kaslo on Friday 09 December 22 05:12 GMT (UK)
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Greetings.
I have been searching for the parents of my grandfather Alexander Joass for several years. The last documents I have is for his son Walter Joass who was born in Banff 25 Dec 1780. There is a thread below this one regarding Walter Joass and his son Walter but I did not want to hijack it with questions about Alexander Joass.
Here's what I know...
-Alexander Joass married Helen Ross on 23/04/1774 at Monquhitter
-They had several children including my grandfather Walter 25 Dec 1780
-My Alexander Joass was a farmer at Burnside of Cullen , Banffshire
What I don't know...
-Correct date of birth/baptism for Alexander Joass
-Correct death date
-Correct parents
As per usual there is a wide range of birth-dates for Alexander Joass in peoples trees on ancestry. Most say 1756 but there are others given. The thing is there were several Alexander Joasses in the Banffshire area at the time. At least 2 were having kids at the same time in Gamerie.
JOASS
ALEXANDER
ALEXANDER JOASS/ANNE LUMSDEN FR542 (FR542)
M
06/07/1781
GAMRIE AND MACDUFF
JOASS
WALTER
ALEXANDER JOASS/HELEN ROSS FR428 (FR428)
M
01/01/1781
GAMRIE AND MACDUFF
Most/many trees on ancestry say Alexander Joass that married Helen Ross was born in 1756:
JOASS
ALEXANDER
ALEXANDER JOASS/MARY DUNCAN
M
17/09/1756
GAMRIE AND MACDUFF
Alexander Joass - Schoolmaster
Alexander Joass, M. A., schoolmaster,
Boyndie, who died 9th Feb., 1831, aged 75
He had a will:
JOASS
ALEXANDER
7 / 10 / 1831
SCHOOLMASTER IN BOYNDIE, SPOUSE OF MARGARET MORRISON
1831-75 is 1756 ...So Alexander Joass the schoolmaster was the one born in 1756. For the longest time ancestry has auto-suggested Alexander Joass M.A schoolmaster as father of Walter Joass 1780. Hundreds of people followed along and have the schoolmaster in their trees as Walter 1780's father.
When I discovered that Walter Joass's father was actually a farmer it became obvious he couldn't also be the 50 year schoolmaster. So that has left me trying to
find out when Alexander the farmer was actually born and who his parents are.
Like I said there are several possible Alexander Joasss in Banffshire and Aberdeenshire at the time. It's possible, even likely that Alexander the schoolmaster and Alexander the farmer (both born at Burnside Of Cullen) are related.I was hoping that someone who had any info about parentage could chime. I would appreciate and help or comments.
Thanks in advance!
Attached:
-Wedding of Alexander Joass and Helen Ross
-1775 birth of Agnes Joass , sister of Walter Joass 1780
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On the death document for Walter Joass in 1862 it lists his father as Alexander Joass -farmer.
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Here is the birth of 1756 Alexander Joass -schoolmaster. The same witness is there as Agnes Joass birth...Alexander Craig of Bloodymire.
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ADDED: You had this entry for the will already. Must read and digest info better me ::)
Alexander Joass, schoolmaster, left a will & testament (see SP, 3 different entries). One shows him as:
Alexander Joass
7 / 10 / 1831
schoolmaster in Boyndie,
spouse of Margaret Morrison
So unless he married twice, he is not your Alexander.
Monica
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-Alexander Joass married Helen Ross on 23/04/1774 at Monquhitter
-They had several children including my grandfather Walter 25 Dec 1780
Alan - a couple of thoughts.
The only children I can see are: Agnes 1775, James 1777, Walter 1780.
So am I missing baptisms; or Helen Ross died young; or they were older parents.
They were married at Monquhitter - so whose parish was that - his or hers?
There is a James Joss having children in Monquhitter around 1726-1730.
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In the old kirkyard at King Edward:
By Alexander Joass farmer in Burnside of Cullen to his father Alexander Joass and his mother Beatrice Addison. The former d. 5th the latter d. 7th Jan. 1763 and both buried on 9th of said month. Son Walter Joass d. 5 Feb. 1764; spouse Mary Duncan d. 18 Sept. 1772; above Alexander Joass d. 9 Feb. 1802 aged 80; Grand-dau. Jane, dau. of William Joass, Burnside of Cullen d. 22 June 1821 aged 11; Also to the memory of Alexander Joass M.A., more than 50 years schoolmaster of the parish of Boyndie d. 1831 aged 75.
In memory of George Joass farmer in Cowsmill, King-Edward, d. 30 Dec. 1869 aged 57; dau. Elizabeth, school teacher, Birkhall, Ballater d. 11 Oct. 1880 aged 23.
By Alexander and George Joass to the memory of their father William Joass farmer Burnside of Cullen d. 28 Jan. 1847 aged 81; his dau. Agnes d. 17 Oct. 1843 aged 39; their mother Isabella Porter d. at Burnside 17 Mar. 1854 aged 75.
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Thanks for the comments. Appreciated.
I had seen that grave info in the past but recently I went to review it but couldn't find it. Thanks for that GR2!
Hello Neale.
I think I missed the part about Alexander Joass potentially re-marrying Helen Ross after the death of Mary Duncan in 1772... What threw me was the fact that Helen Ross doesn't appear on the grave. Seems odd that his first wife would get mentioned prominently and nothing about Helen.
I spent a bunch of time searching for that grave info before posting this. I first saw it on a paid-subscription site as I recall but I didn't save it because I had discounted it. Now I can see that everything lines up ... the Burnside farmer , the second marriage , infant son Walter who dies in 1763 and then my grandfather gets named Walter in honour in 1780.
I guess the lingering questions I have are: What happened to Helen Ross ,why is she not mentioned and what connection is Alexander Joass schoolmaster (just says "Also to the memory of"). Finally what is Alexander Joass birth/baptism if he was born around 1722 as mentioned on the grave.
Thanks again for the help. I'm still figuring things out and not 100% sure but the grave info looks promising.
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If I am reading that memorial inscription correctly
I am thinking that Alexander Joass (School master) 1756-1831 is the son of Mary Duncan and Alexander JOASS who died 1802.
I wonder if the age at death (80 years) is correct for Alexander Joass died 1802?
This baptism would fit a man who married Mary Duncan in 1755
JOSS ALEXANDER (father Alexander)
M 28/04/1732 223 10 / 159 MONQUHITTER
Then it makes sense that a couple of years after Mary Duncan died, he married Helen Ross.
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By Alexander and George Joass to the memory of their father William Joass farmer Burnside of Cullen d. 28 Jan. 1847 aged 81; his dau. Agnes d. 17 Oct. 1843 aged 39; their mother Isabella Porter d. at Burnside 17 Mar. 1854 aged 75.
William was the son of Alexander Joass and Mary Duncan born 1765. He married Isabella Porter in Banff in 1803.
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Aberdeen Journal 2-3-1831:
Died, at Manse of Boyndie, on the 9th Feb. ALEXANDER JOASS, A.M.
aged 75 years, who has been the parochial schoolmaster there for upwards of
half a century. He was an excellent teacher, and highly respected by all
classes of society, and his memory will be long revered by his numerous
pupils, many of whom are the children and grand-children of those he
first taught in that parish.
There is a 1925 book, "The Schools and Schoolmasters of Banffshire", which has a section on each parish, which lists teachers and gives some biographical details. I don't think it is available to read on-line.
I have a copy of James Godsman's book on the parish of King Edward. In the entry for Cowsmill, It says that George Joass, tenant there, was the son of William Joass and Isabella Porter, Burnside of Cullen, and grandson of Alexander Joass and Mary Duncan. George's brother, Alexander, succeeded to the tenancy of Burnside. It says that Alexander the schoolmaster was George's uncle.
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Alexander bp.17 Sep 1756 Burnside. m. Helen Ross 1774 Monquitter, Parents. Alexander, Farmer Burnside of Cullen b 1721/2 m Mary Duncan Turriff 1755 Grandparents Alexander 1681, m. Beatrice Addison.
Gt Gdparents? George Joass= Margaret Priest.
Further details , siblings,witnessses etc.if of interest.
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I knew this thread sounded familiar!
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=556768.0
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Thanks for the comments!
There is a thread below this one regarding Walter Joass and his son Walter but I did not want to hijack it with questions about Alexander Joass.
Yeah, it's true... I did make a new thread about the aforementioned Walter Joass's grandfather Alexander. Just wanted to keep the two separated and not take over someone else's thread.
It seems like all the key info about Alexander Joass farmer is here in this thread. I thought I had it figured out until Douglas posted saying that Alexander was born in 1756 and married Helen Ross. We know from the grave that the Alexander born 1756 and died 1831 was the schoolmaster of Boyndie and that he married Margaret Morrison...
JOASS
ALEXANDER
7 / 10 / 1831
SCHOOLMASTER IN BOYNDIE, SPOUSE OF MARGARET MORRISON
I'm a bit down with a cold at the moment and my head is groggy...could someone please help me decipher from GR2's posts here who is the actual parents? I'm sure with enough staring at the screen and re-reading this thread I could figure it out but right now i'm back to being confused.
Thanks so much for the help so far. As I mentioned I have been at this for several years, trying to find Alexander Joass farmer's parents.
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I do have a copy of the 'Banffshire Schools and Schoolmasters' book GR2 referred to, but thanks to assorted strikes I can't actually get my hands on it in the meantime.
It's just possible that the Boyndie Kirk Session records might mention the origins of the schoolmaster.
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From the information presented by GR2
Generation 1. Alexander JOASS (d 1763) m.? Beatrice ADDISON (d 1763)
Generation 2. Son of the above
Alexander JOASS (1722-1802) Burnside of Cullen - m.1755 Mary DUNCAN (d 1772)
Generation 3.Children of Alexander J and Mary Duncan
Alexander JOASS (1756-1831) school master Boyndie - m.? - Margaret MORRISON
Thomas JOASS (b 1759)
Isabel JOASS (b 1761)
Walter JOASS (1763-1764)
William JOASS (1765-1847) Burnside of Cullen - m. 1803 Isabella PORTER (1779-1854)
John JOASS (b 1770)
Generation 4. Children of William J and Isabella Porter
Agnes (b 1804)
Helen (b 1805)
Isobel (b 1806)
Alexander JOASS (b 1808) Burnside of Cullen - m. 1860 Cecilia SHEPHERD
Jean (b 1810)
George JOASS (1812-1869) Cowsmill King Edward - m. 1854 Mary PHILIP
That does not answer your question about which Alexander married Helen ROSS in 1774.
Option A: Alexander (1756-1831) the school master. Did he marry Helen Ross before he married Margaret Morrison? What information can you glean from his will? Did he have children? (He would have been young marrying in 1774.)
Option B: Alexander (1722-1802) farmer Burnside of Cullen. Did he have a second marriage after Mary Duncan died.
From the few records you have posted, this seems the most likely option at the moment.
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Thanks for the summary Neale. Appreciated as always.
Looking again at the grave that GR2 posted:
In the old kirkyard at King Edward:
By Alexander Joass farmer in Burnside of Cullen to his father Alexander Joass and his mother Beatrice Addison. The former d. 5th the latter d. 7th Jan. 1763 and both buried on 9th of said month. Son Walter Joass d. 5 Feb. 1764; spouse Mary Duncan d. 18 Sept. 1772; above Alexander Joass d. 9 Feb. 1802 aged 80; Grand-dau. Jane, dau. of William Joass, Burnside of Cullen d. 22 June 1821 aged 11; Also to the memory of Alexander Joass M.A., more than 50 years schoolmaster of the parish of Boyndie d. 1831 aged 75.
It's clear to me now (finally) that Alexander Joass , farmer at Burnside of Cullen died in 1802 at age 80 ,born 1722. I feel confident in this info.
He married Mary Duncan 26/10/1755
She died 18 Sept. 1772
He remarried to Helen Ross 23/04/1774
They had my grandfather Walter 01/01/1781
If Alexander 1756 married Helen Ross in 1774 he'd barely be 18. Which is possible but unlikely.
I can't comprehend Alexander Joass born 1756 being anyone other than the schoolmaster of Boyndie. He would have to had remarried a third time to Margaret Morrison... plus the fact that the schoolmaster died 1831 at age 75 = 1756.
Also GR2 commented from the book:
It says that George Joass, tenant there, was the son of William Joass and Isabella Porter, Burnside of Cullen, and grandson of Alexander Joass and Mary Duncan. George's brother, Alexander, succeeded to the tenancy of Burnside. It says that Alexander the schoolmaster was George's uncle.
That makes it clear to me that the schoolmaster is not the son of Alexander Joass and Mary Duncan.
Like I said ancestry was constantly auto-suggesting Alexander 1756 as being husband of Helen Ross and father of Walter 1780. When I saw the documents stating Walter's father as a farmer at Burnside I started to have doubts.
I tried to find a birth in 1722 for Alexander...couldn't see one but I did see a John Joass born at Alvah 1724 and a Walter born 1727 both to an Alexander.
I should say also that I mean no disrespect to the hundreds of people who have Alexander Joass 1756 as wife of Helen Ross. I'm just following the facts and seeking the correct info. I've had lots of mistakes in my trees over the years that I a slowly trying to correct.
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Also GR2 commented from the book:
It says that George Joass, tenant there, was the son of William Joass and Isabella Porter, Burnside of Cullen, and grandson of Alexander Joass and Mary Duncan. George's brother, Alexander, succeeded to the tenancy of Burnside. It says that Alexander the schoolmaster was George's uncle.
That makes it clear to me that the schoolmaster is not the son of Alexander Joass and Mary Duncan.
I have to correct you Alan. Alex the schoolmaster IS the son of Alexander Joass and Mary Duncan. (See my previous post - reply #14)
George's father was William. William's oldest brother was Alex the school master. That makes Alex the school master George's uncle.
Regarding your direct ancestor Walter Joass bapt 1781 - he was brother (half-brother) to Alex the school master. They both shared the same father, but had different mothers.
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I appreciate being corrected on this stuff Neale! Thanks a lot.
So (thinking out loud) Alexander the schoolmaster is Walter's half-brother and 24 years older than him... but the schoolmaster did not marry Helen Ross and is not father to Walter. His father Alexander 1722 did indeed re-marry Helen.
The mother of the schoolmaster is Mary Duncan
The mother of Alexander farmer is Helen Ross
This is all golden info Neale! Really starting to make sense. One thing for sure is ancestry suggesting the schoolmaster is Walter's father is wrong info.
Slowly unraveling the tangled knot of history...
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So (thinking out loud) Alexander the schoolmaster is Walter's half-brother and 24 years older than him...
CORRECT :D
... the schoolmaster did not marry Helen Ross. ..... His father Alexander 1722 did indeed re-marry Helen.
This seems to be most likely. For better confirmation, I would look at the will for Alexander the school master, to see what information it gives.
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There's plenty of missing documents with this one...
No death for Helen Ross/Joass
No death for Alexander Joass 1802
No birth for above Alexander 80 years before death
No marriage for Alexander and Beatrice Addison
No death for a Beatrice Joass
No death of Mary Duncan/Joass
No death of Alexander schoolmaster 1831(though there is a will which I shall purchase asap.)
No marriage of Alexander and Margaret Morrison
Just to be sure I search for "starts with j___" and if 10 pages of results come I'll scan through all of them so as to catch all the variations of Joss.
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Just to be sure I search for "starts with j___" and if 10 pages of results come I'll scan through all of them so as to catch all the variations of Joss.
Quick people search with 'wildcards allowed' for j*ss finds 18,990 results
Quick people search with 'wildcards allowed' for j*s finds 254,516 results
Quick people search with 'phonetic variations for Joss finds 1,213,570 results #
Quick search with 'beginning with' for j.... finds 2,158,746
Have you found many variations that don't fit j*ss ?
# Much entertained to see that 1,657 pages of OPR baptisms using 'phonetic variations' of Joss include Hedger, Eggie, Cas, Zoot and a few other surprises.
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Variations seen; Josse, Foss, Zoss,Jos, as well as ones with single s or no a.
As if too many Walters and Alexanders wasn,t enough.
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I've done many searches by first name also so as not to miss anything...
For instance if I was searching for Alexander Joass's around 1756:
I'd set it to search for a male in Banff (also do the same for Aberdeenshire) between the years 1754 - 1757. No surname. First name starts with AL. 11 pages pop up and I can set the surnames to show alphabetically. Now it's easy to scan , seconds per page. I still don't jump to the J's right away.
I did the above with several people mentioned in this thread all to make sure i wasn't missing out on results.
I should mention that I'm thrilled so far at the amazing help and results here in this thread! So thankful I didn't follow auto-suggest. Sometimes I look at my tree and think , wow there is not a lot to that. Then I remember the years of constant research (and many hundreds of dollars in bought documents) that went into my wee tree.
Almost every branch came to an inevitable dead end. That's where Rootschat shines! I have received absolutely amazing help here time and time again. This thread is another example of it.
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A candidate for Helen Ross:
Alexander Ross was born at Balgreen, Gamrie, in 1708. He married Agnes Milne and had children. Helen (1745), John (1747), Agnes (1748), Katherine (1755) and William (1758).
Alexander Ross was farmer at Mill of Balmaud, King Edward, by at least 1742 (he was an elder of the kirk that year). His first three children were born at Balmaud, but by June 1755 he had moved to Gamrie and taken on the tenancy of the Mains of Cullen. He disappears from the records in December 1765, and his son John was tenant at Mains of Cullen by 1769.
Between 1780 and 1793, John Ross had seven children baptised. Six of the baptisms were witnessed by Alexander Joass in Burnside of Cullen and one by Alexander Joass in Bauds of Cullen. While Alexander Joass may have been a witness as a friend and neighbour, it might also have been because John Ross's sister Helen had married into the family.
These Rosses can be traced back to John Ross and Barbara Reid, whose son, James Ross, married Barbara Panton, daughter of James Panton of Haremoss, Monquhitter. James Ross and Barbara Panton were the parents Alexander Ross (b. 1708). Alexander's wife, Agnes Milne, was probably the daughter of Thomas Milne in Nether Foulzie, King Edward.
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Thank you so much GR2 for your generous contributions. Greatly appreciated.
I did have Helen Ross as being born in 1745 with mentioned parents in tree...but that was only by being the most likely search result, no proof of any kind. What you just shared dovetails perfectly ... the move to Mains Cullen , the witnessing etc. Everything is clicking together!
Now to digest that info (which always takes several reads and follow-up cross-referencing).
Thanks again!
PS: "Nether Foulzie" ;D
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If you want detailed files on these Rosses, send me a personal message with your e-mail address and I'll send them off to you.
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I tried to find a birth in 1722 for Alexander...couldn't see one but I did see a John Joass born at Alvah 1724 and a Walter born 1727 both to an Alexander.
Assuming the 1722 birth date is correct, I am not sure this can be your family in Alvah. These childrens baptisms are recorded (& no room for your Alexander in 1722):
James 1720, Chirstain 1722, John 1724, George 1726, Walter 1727, Walter 1728, Margaret 1730, Margaret 1731.
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I have at least 3 relatives with incorrect age cast in stone on their grave. Likely rounded off to 80 for Alexander or could even be a dozen years off...hard to say without a birth/death doc or such.
Alexander Joass 1734 seems like a popular one. For unknown reasons. He would be 22 for birth of Alexander schoolmaster.
JOSS
ALEXANDER
ALEXANDER JOSS/
M
12/03/1734
GAMRIE AND MACDUFF
Not sure where Mains of Lighnot are.
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Here's the will of Alexander the schoolmaster Joass:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MkE4hXgCPVRoThP0_lHzE4_tOLGRMEax/view?usp=share_link
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Not sure where Mains of Lighnot are.
Just east of Gardenstown. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.7&lat=57.67304&lon=-2.32741&layers=5&b=1
Lichnet on modern maps. See http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/nj8064 and https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4269048
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Thanks , that map is great. I had been looking at the Roy Military map from 100 years previous but it wasn't as helpful as this one.
I cannot find a scrap of info on Alexander Joass and Beatrice Addison. I thought I'd see at least a passing mention , a horse tax...something. Couldn't find a thing.
They did have that super-helpful grave stone GR2 posted though. Which I plan to visit in the future.
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Here's the will of Alexander the schoolmaster Joass:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MkE4hXgCPVRoThP0_lHzE4_tOLGRMEax/view?usp=share_link
Interesting to read. I was surprised a school teacher did not have a library if books.So Alexander did have 2 marriages.
Confirmation of brothers William of Burnside and John.
Mention of only one child Elizabeth B.? (Bremner?) to his 1st wife.
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JOSS
ALEXANDER
JAMES JOSS/
M
27/05/1726
MONQUHITTER
Attached is the above document. Interesting... but worth 2 dollars? Hard to say ::)
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I could literally move in ...
https://www.stewartwatson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/burnside-farmhouse-burnside-of-cullen-longmanhill-banff.pdf
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Hi Alan,
I've looked at this thread with interest but what I find is a lack of 'typed' info. which sends me elsewhere to try & help.
It's all good to post images for others to look at but it would be helpful to post the info. too in 'text' as not everyone is able to read old handwriting & if they can it can take a while.
It's also far easier to follow info. from typed up data, names, dates, events, locations et al.
It's time consuming enough for helpers reading written text to follow up on but having to transcribe old docs prior is even more time consuming...please consider this in future.
I know some of us often build trees to help others (it's much easier to work with) so all known info. (as well as images) are recommended to save a lot of valuable time.
It's also an idea to post links to all other threads you have on the same family which saves duplication of effort.
Annie
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I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.
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I'll keep that in mind. Thank you.
A timeline would be helpful for the thread with all referrals to specific images e.g. Reply # x y or z
Annie
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Here's the will of Alexander the schoolmaster Joass:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MkE4hXgCPVRoThP0_lHzE4_tOLGRMEax/view?usp=share_link
Interesting to read. I was surprised a school teacher did not have a library if books.So Alexander did have 2 marriages.
Confirmation of brothers William of Burnside and John.
Mention of only one child Elizabeth B.? (Bremner?) to his 1st wife.
I have had a read through the will and Elizabeth Bremner is not Alexander Joass's daughter. The will does not indicate that Alexander married twice, but his wife did, and Elizabeth is her daughter by a previous marriage. She is mentioned in the section of the will where Margaret Morrison accepts the provisions made for her if Alexander dies first and states what is to happen if he outlives her. She specifically leaves her daughter £20, her body clothes, and a chest of drawers, although Alexander is given liferent of them.
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Has anyone managed to find a will or other documents to support Alexander marrying twice?
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The railways having been in operation yesterday, I have made it home and am reunited with my copy of Banffshire Schools and Schoolmasters.
Alexander Joass is mentioned in the chapter on Boyndie but the references shed no light on his family connections.
On Page 74 It is recorded in 1796 that the visitors of the school were much satisfied with the diligence of Mr Joass, the schoolmaster, and the proficiency of the scholars. As to Mr Joass we will have something to say later; to everyone interested in the local past his name is anathema.
On Page 76 One of the earliest of what may be described as the modern race of [Boyndie's] dominies was Mr Joass, whose establishment was carried on in what was for a considerable time the farm-house of Upper Dallachy and is now a cottar house. Mr Joass was teacher and session clerk, and it is reported that certain session records now awanting were destroyed through his failure to regard them as valuable documents, he having as a matter of fact used them to light his pipe. Whatever may have been his distinction and his success as the head of the parish school, it is this unhappy fact through which, in the main, he lives today in local history.
Upper Dallachy https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14.7&lat=57.67444&lon=-2.60802&layers=5&b=1&marker=57.67787,-2.61367 (not to be confused with the place of the same name in the parish of Bellie in Moray).
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Thank you, Have extracts from the book but was hoping there was more in there, saved me £60. The comment on p258 under Rothiemay where he was schoolmaster and sessions clerk from 1780-88 and renowned for using the records as spills for his pipe makes me wish he was not related.
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Ah, I missed the Rothiemay reference.
Have you followed up the mention on P258 that he graduated MA from King's College in 1788? The online references I have found are not very informative but the university archives might have something more detailed. In particular they may have a record of his father's name.
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All I have managed to find is that he studied at Kings college from 1777-1781, graduated m.a.1788
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All I have managed to find is that he studied at Kings college from 1777-1781, graduated m.a.1788
Just so. But there could be information in the university archives that isn't in the books that have been digitised and made available online.
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Unfortunately due to location am unable to access records other than online.
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Unfortunately due to location am unable to access records other than online.
Surely you could e-mail the university archives and ask them if they have any more information?
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We have a will where it mentions his wife Margaret Morrison. It is hard to read and quite faint. Would like to know more about Margaret Morrison and what happened to Helen Ross. No death date at this stage. File is too large to upload.
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Edited*
Wrong info removed
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Edited*
Wrong info removed
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Edited*
Wrong information revoved
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I got so confused that I had to reread the thread myself...
Neale kindly spells it out here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=868256.msg7390384#msg7390384
Sorry for jumping the gun and making the above posts. The info was almost too much and I had forgot the details of what Neale laid out earlier in thread...
-Alexander Joass 1722 the farmer of Burnside first married Mary Duncan 26/10/1755
- then she died
-He then married Helen Ross 23/04/1774
-At age 58 he had the son Walter in 1780.
-Above Walter 1780 is half-brother of Alexander Joass schoolmaster of Boyndie (Walter 24 years younger)
- Helen Ross is the mother of Walter 1780
-Mary Duncan (Alexander's first wife) is mother of Alexander 1756 schoolmaster.
Thanks again Neale for unwinding that complicated knot of history! I need to reread it every 6 months to keep it straight.
Douglas , if you come up with anything related that is interesting please share it.
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Has anyone found any information on Alexander Joass (1756-1831) Margaret Morrison and the daughter Elizabeth Brimmer to his former? She is mentioned in his will. Also has anyone found a transcription of the will. It is not the easiest of documents to read.
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From a bunch of posts back: Post #37
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=868256.msg7392201#msg7392201
I have had a read through the will and Elizabeth Bremner is not Alexander Joass's daughter. The will does not indicate that Alexander married twice, but his wife did, and Elizabeth is her daughter by a previous marriage. She is mentioned in the section of the will where Margaret Morrison accepts the provisions made for her if Alexander dies first and states what is to happen if he outlives her. She specifically leaves her daughter £20, her body clothes, and a chest of drawers, although Alexander is given liferent of them.
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I believe that this may be the birth of Elizabeth Bemner. Daughter of Margaret Morrison from her first marriage before Alexander Joass 1756...
BREMBER
ELIZABETH
JOHN BREMBER/MARGARET MORISON
F
30/04/1810
159
30 / 430
Keith
Also, this wedding ...
BREMNER JOHN
MARGT. MORRISON/
07/12/1809
156
30 / 365
Grange
It think John Bremner died in 1817:
BREMNER
JOHN
-----
M
14/02/1817
159
40 / 362
Keith
One could assume that Margaret Morrison Bremner married Alexander Joass schoolmaster some time after 1817. By then Alexander was 60+ years old.
According to the will interpretation: Margaret Morrison was previously married but they don't mention a previous marriage for Alexander. That doesn't mean he wasn't married though...just that the will doesn't mention a first wife. Perhaps she had already passed some years previous. The will mentions two brothers but leaves out Walter Joass 1780. I'm not sure why that would be the case. Also why Helen Ross and Alexander are not buried in the family plot is a bit of a mystery.
Anyhow I would think Alexander would have had kids and married previous to remarrying at 60... I don't recall seeing any marriage or births for him but there are several decoy Alexander Joasses around. There is no mention of children in the schoolmaster's will , only the step-daughter , his wife Margaret Morrison and two brothers.
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Elizabeth Bremner , step-daughter of Alexander Joass 1756 died in 1887 aged 77. She married a Lawrance but try as I may I could not find a marriage...perhaps it's lost or took place outside of Scotland.
BREMNER
ELIZABETH
77
MORRISON
F
1887
153 / 2 / 38
Portsoy
----------
LAWRANCE
ELIZABETH
77
MORRISON
F
1887
153 / 2 / 38
Portsoy
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A bunch of clues point to this being the Lawrance that Elizabeth Brember married ...
1851 census Banffshire Lawrance:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59027d76e9379091b126f438/elizabeth-lawrance-1851-banffshire-fordyce-1811-?locale=en
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Thank you Alan, a wealth of information there.
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According to the will interpretation: Margaret Morrison was previously married but they don't mention a previous marriage for Alexander. That doesn't mean he wasn't married though...just that the will doesn't mention a first wife. Perhaps she had already passed some years previous.
As there was, at that time, no practical way of getting divorced (it required an Act of Parliament so was out of reach of all but the wealthiest) she has to have died before he married Margaret Morrison.
There's a book, Banffshire Schools and Schoolmasters. I own a copy but can't find it. It might be worth searching to see if it's been digitised and put online.
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Elizabeth Bremner , step-daughter of Alexander Joass 1756 died in 1887 aged 77. She married a Lawrance but try as I may I could not find a marriage...perhaps it's lost or took place outside of Scotland.
It could be in the Episcopal Church records of Portsoy, some of which have survived but are not on Scotland's People. I believe that they are held in the Aberdeen Diocesan Archive but I cannot be certain whether or not the registers for the dates of interest survive.
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Thanks Forfarian! Appreciated.
It used to bug me how badly ancestry wanted me to put the schoolmaster in my tree as father of Walter Joass 1780 ... they repeatedly recommended it and also Ann Lumsden as being his wife. I rejected it for years. Here's proof to the contrary.
This birth in 1781 (same time as Walter Joass) shows the schoolmaster witnessing a birth of a child named Alexander to Alexander Joass of Bauds and wife Ann Lumsden.
No matter how small I resize the doc , I can't seem to post it...so I have to link to my google drive to share it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wog27GZVp5RWlhBVxxHuQv7KiGdEFfLU/view?usp=sharing
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Alexander Craig's name comes up a bunch. He witnesses decades of births for the Joass familys of Burnside. Turns out he married a Joass named Katherine and had kids.
Same birth year as the schoolmaster 1756:
CRAIG WILLIAM
ALEXANDER CRAIG/KATHERINE JOSS
M
19/08/1756
155
10 / 239
Gamrie and Macduff
I'm thinking that Katherine Joass might be sister to Alexander Joass farmer of Burnside 173?-1802 (son of Beatrice Addison and Alexander Joass senior).
Has anyone found any links to Katherine Joass and the branch of Joasses we have been discussing?
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Brainflash*
It's quite possible that Alexander Joass schoolmaster had no children ... therefore no one could claim lineage from him. ;)
Is there any proof he married before Margaret Morrison or procreated?
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It used to bug me how badly ancestry wanted me to put the schoolmaster in my tree as father of Walter Joass 1780 ... they repeatedly recommended it and also Ann Lumsden as being his wife. I rejected it for years.
You really don't want to get me started on the evils of Ancestry.
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This birth in 1781 (same time as Walter Joass) shows the schoolmaster witnessing a birth of a child named Alexander to Alexander Joass of Bauds and wife Ann Lumsden.
No matter how small I resize the doc , I can't seem to post it...so I have to link to my google drive to share it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wog27GZVp5RWlhBVxxHuQv7KiGdEFfLU/view?usp=sharing
Having looked at this, the witness is not Alexander Joass the schoolmaster, but a schoolmaster called Alexander Tocher.
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Brainflash*
It's quite possible that Alexander Joass schoolmaster had no children ... therefore no one could claim lineage from him. ;)
Is there any proof he married before Margaret Morrison or procreated?
It is almost certain that he was not married before he married Margaret Morrison. The fact that no mention at all is made of any children of his in the will suggests this.
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Thanks a lot GR2. Your posts were really helpful in tbis thread. There are Joss/Joyce/Joass organisations that take this stuff very seriously and the findings in this thread have upset the apple-cart a bit. It's causing a rethink.
Appreciate the help here.
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"Having looked at this, the witness is not Alexander Joass the schoolmaster, but a schoolmaster called Alexander Tocher."
Ahh, okay. I thought it said teacher
I see a huge write-up about Alexander Tocher:
https://www.writinguptheancestors.ca/tag/tocher
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Bookmarking, as we have an interest in the Joass family line.
Kit
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Thanks Forfarian! Appreciated.
It used to bug me how badly ancestry wanted me to put the schoolmaster in my tree as father of Walter Joass 1780 ... they repeatedly recommended it and also Ann Lumsden as being his wife. I rejected it for years. Here's proof to the contrary.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wog27GZVp5RWlhBVxxHuQv7KiGdEFfLU/view?usp=sharing
Here is the inscription from a gravestone in the kirkyard at Alvah:
This stone is erected by Alexander Joass farmer in Bauds, in
memory of John Lumsden, sometime farmer in Carling Craigs, who
departed this life February 20th 1780, aged 66. Also his spouse,
died March 20th 1801, aged 79. Alexander Joass, farmer in Bauds 32 years,
died July 20th 1811, aged 72. Ann Lumsden, his spouse, died
February 8th 1812, aged 68, and their son, James Joss,
merchant, Boyndlie ...
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Thanks again!
Full disclosure... most of what has been discussed here lately was all sent to me by GR2 in an email...to no previous marriage , the no kids, Elisabeth Bremner etc etc ... It was just so much information (along with the history and family tree of Helen Ross!) it caused me to temporarily forget the details , to keep my head from spinning off. It's a lot to take in.
Any ideas why Helen Ross wouldn't be buried with Alexander? Was it taboo to bury a second wife in the same plot as your first? I imagine Helen buried with her parents somewhere in King Edward area. They could be in Banffshire also.
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Great question Alan and one that has got a lot of airtime.
As a matter of interests who do you have as Alex J 1722 parents and any vital details.
Just looking at the maths.
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Folks say it's Alexander Joass 1714.
I have no idea if that is right or wrong. What everyone else has had has generally been consistently wrong... so I don't know what to think.
It's cast in stone that Alexander Joass -1763 and Beatrice Addison -1763 are the parents of Alexander Joass farmer of Burnside of Cullen. So I feel confident having them as Walter Joass 1780's grandparents in my tree.
Here is my current theory:
Alexander Joass farmer of Burnside, son of Alexander and Beatrice Addison was not 80 when he died. 30 years after he died they carved the grave and they put 80 because it was close enough and no one would complain. So instead of being born firmly in 1722 ... I believe he was actually born closer to 1732. Which would make him more like 40 when he remarried after the death of Mary Duncan and 46 for the birth of Walter in 1780.
There are a few possible candidates for Alexander Joass who died in 1802.
One that i'm looking at is an Alexander that was having a series of kids in the 1720's and 30's in Alvah. He had a son named Walter ... The last child he had in Alvah was 1731.
JOASS
CHIRSTAIN
ALEXR. JOASS/
F
24/06/1722
146
10 / 16
Alvah
JOASS
JOHN
ALEXANDER JOASS/
M
04/03/1724
146
10 / 21
Alvah
JOASS
WALTER
ALEXANDER JOASS/
M
23/04/1727
146
10 / 29
Alvah
MARGARET
ALEXR. JOASS/
F
31/10/1730
146
10 / 41
Alvah
When I purchased these docs looking for clues I found that they first lived at Funkieston and then in a later birth Mill of Bredach and then later again Stoneyhill. So they moved around for sure and were farmers/crofters... Anyhow after their last child listed in 1731 comes a birth in Gamrie for an Alexander Joass in 1734. The place is Mill of Lighnot close to Gardenstown (thanks Forfarian!)
It's possible Alexander Joass of Alvah moved to Mill of Lighnot and then had a son named Alexander.
I'll keep combing for clues.
As far as Alexander Joass 1714 ...supposed father of Alexander that died in 1802? Only DNA or some serious clues could prove that.
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Any ideas why Helen Ross wouldn't be buried with Alexander? Was it taboo to bury a second wife in the same plot as your first? I imagine Helen buried with her parents somewhere in King Edward area. They could be in Banffshire also.
I wouldn't worry at all about the failure to mention Helen Ross on the gravestone at King Edward.
1. Relatively few people had grave stones and, where they survive, not everyone buried in that grave is mentioned on the inscription.
2. Being mentioned on a gravestone does not actually mean you are definitely buried there, Where detailed burial registers survive, you often find that family members might be buried in several graves, but only one has a stone on it and they are all mentioned there.
3. An inscription may be built up over the years as new burials are made, or it might all be carved at the same time when a later burial takes place.
4. There was no problem about burying more than one wife in the same grave. I can think of an example in Methlick where the names of three wives are on the same stone.
5. Sometimes there is no room left on a stone for additional writing.
6. it requires someone to go to the effort and expense of having the inscription added.
Presumably Alexander Joass had the first part of the inscription made, as far as the mention of Mary Duncan. When he died, Helen Ross was probably still alive.
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Regarding John Joass of Bloodymire -who married Isobel Riddoch ::)
DNA is saying I am related to a Helen Joass who married John Lumsden. I followed her back through the documents and find:
JOASS HELEN
WILLIAM JOASS/ISOBEL PORTER FR489 (FR489)
F
29/08/1805
155
20 / 278
Gamrie and Macduff
william Joass was born:
JOASS WILLIAM
JOHN JOASS/ISOBEL RIDDOCH FR641 (FR641)
M
15/06/1777
155
20 / 556
Gamrie and Macduff
In the documents you see that this is John Joafs of Bloodymire who appears many times as witness to Burnside Joass births.
Alexander Joass 17??-1802 had a son John 12/04/1770 with Mary Duncan and John Joafs Bloodymire is the witness. This has lead me to believe that Alexander Joass of Burnside and John Joafs of Bloodymire are brothers. I'm related to both of them at any rate.
The witness at the birth of William 1777 was Alexander Joass of Bauds who I suspect is a Nephew of Alexander Joass of Burnside.
John Joass of Bloodymire also had a son named Walter the same year ...1780 as Alexander Joass of Burnside.
JOSS
WALTER
JOHN JOSS/ISABEL RIDDOCH FR425 (FR425)
M
01/05/1780
155
20 / 153
Gamrie and Macduff
If John Joass of Bloodymire is the brother of Alexander of Burnside then it's possible he could be the John of Alexander Joass of Alvah mentioned earlier.
JOASS JOHN
ALEXANDER JOASS/
M
04/03/1724
146
10 / 21
Alvah
This scenerio would make him about 53 for birth of William in 1777. Still just a theory.
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Unfortunately I don't have time at present to read through all the 'Joass' threads again & apologise if this has already been mentioned since I looked but I thought it may be of benefit...
There's a lot of info. on NRS online catalogue re the Joass/Jos/Joss families - https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
A few examples...
GD16/23/42 - 1652-1689...
"Contract of wadset (& legal papers following thereon) between James, Earl of Airlie, with consent of Isobel Hammiltoun, his spouse and James, Lord Ogilvye, his son, on the one part and Thomas Jos in Hiltoun of Blairshinnoch, for himself and on behalf of William, Patrick and James Joss, his second, third and fourth sons, on the other part."
GD198/287 - 1658-1786 - Joass family papers...
"Bundle 1:
1. Testament of Thomas Joass in favour of his son, William, 1666
2. Confirmation of the Joass armorial bearings by Lord Lyon to William Joass, 1679
3. Testament of William Joass, 1711
4. Inhibition by Milne against Ogilvie and related papers, 1657-1659
Bundle 2:
1. Contract of marriage between Alexander Cruickshank and Helen Joass, 1731
2. Testamentary letter of Helen Joass, daughter of George Joass and sister of Major Joass, 1772
3. Release of lands belonging to General Scott by Major Joass for the sum of £1066, 1776
Bundle 3:
1. Decree by the Earls of Findlater and Seafield and Patrick Miln, his tacksman, against George Joass of Colleonare and his tenants, 1743
Bundle 4:
1. Copy of deed of entail for Glasshaugh by General Abercromby amd Captain Abercromby, 1780
Bundle 5:
1. Marriage contract between Elizabeth Abercromby and Major Alexander Joass in Edinburgh, 1767
2. Nomination of subscribers and curators for Mary Joass, his only child, by Major Joass, 1771
3. Bond of provision by Major Joass in favour of Mrs. Joass and Miss Simpson, 1786
Bundle 6: Not held
Bundle 7:
1. Memoir from Major Alexander Joass, 1762
2. Copy opinion for Major Alexander Joass from Alexander Lockhart concerning relief of sundry debts in the case of Lord Banff against Messers Hays, 1762
3. Minutes between Lord Banff and Major Joass concerning the possession of the Banff estate by two apparent heirs successively, 1763
4. Representation for Major Alexander Joass, late of Colleonard concerning Lord Banff's estate after his death, 1764
5. Memorial and queries for Major Alexander Joass, late of Colleonard, with answers regarding Lord Banff's estate after his death, 1764
6. Petition of Major Alexander Joass, late of Colleonard regarding Lord Banff's estate after his death and answer, 1765
7. Back bond from Major Alexander Joass to John Law, lawful heir to Lord Banff, c 1765
8. Account between Lord Banff and Major Joass, 1770.
Plus three small envelopes.
Bundle 5: Some of the contents listed on the bundle wrapper are not contained within the envelope."
GD36/73 - 17 Jan 1759...
"Copy Memorial for Lieutenant Alexander Joass of the Royal Regiment of Foot anent lands and barony of Caleonard in parish and sheriffdom of Banff disponed by him in favour of James, Earl of Findlater and Seafield, with Opinion by John Craigie annexed"
Any of the above would need to be ordered via a researcher e.g. scottishindexes.com or similar.
Annie
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I've been quite intrigued with this family & how they may be related as they all appear to be related in some way...
Bundle 2:
1. Contract of marriage between Alexander Cruickshank and Helen Joass, 1731
Today I found a bit more...
1731
"Draft papers relative to marriage contract between Alexander Cruikshank of Balnoon and Helen Joass, second daughter of deceased John Joass of Collenard, with consent of Mary Ogilvie, her mother"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01smu/
Variant of Collenard / Colleonard
Annie
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Thank you so much!
Greatly appreciated. Will now digest the info.
I was trying to see if there was a connection between the Joass of Burnside of Cullen and the Joass at Collenard. It's my understanding the lairdship of Collenard was in the hands of the Joass family but it changed hands later. So not all the Collenard Joasses have documents signed by sirs and important people...some of them were just farmers etc.
Anyhow , now that I see the maps I can see that Collenard and Burnside are not too far apart. It's also close to the towns that Alexander Joass (who had kids early 1720/30's in Alvah) ... Funkiestown , Brydock and Stonyhill. I believe there is a connection to Alexander Joass of Alvah.
The son of Alexander Joass and Helen Ross is Walter 1780.
The name Walter Joass repeats a few times in Banffshire.
Walter Joass 1780 had a wee brother who died young in 1764 (the year after both parents died).
Alexander Joass's brother John of Bloodymire also had a son Walter in 1780 with Isobel Riddoch.
If you go back further ... two Walter Joasses were born in Alvah to the Alexander I mentioned above. One in 1727 who died and another in 1728.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/64f9ce4c865574086e839f28?locale=en
The witnesses for the 1728 Walter Joass birth were:
"Walter Simson in Auchenbaidie; James and John Joass in Moncoffer"
Before that there was a Walter born in Banff 1684/5:
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/595ed195f493fdbd7ae3e773/walter-joass-baptism-banffshire-banff-1685-03-06?locale=en
This is a Collenard Joass birth...
Witnesses: Walter Reaburn, Walter Milne & Walter Simson
Now I realize that is not much of a breakthrough clue ... but it seems like something, possibly.
I definitely feel that there is a connection between the various Walter Joasses about Banffshire. They could lead back to Walter 1684/5 ... I need more proof though.
Thanks again for any help!
Alan
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I think there's a typo...
"The son of Alexander Joass and Helen Ross is Walter 1780.
The name Walter Joass repeats a few times in Banffshire.
Walter Joass 1780 had a wee brother who died young in 1764 (the year after both parents died)"
Walter 1780 would've been born after his parents died in 1763?
Annie
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Yes a typo! Thanks. A brain stall even.
The Walter that died in 1764 is the uncle of Walter 1780.
As far as the 2 Walters from Alvah 1720's , i assumed they were brothers. I might be wrong there.
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Not sure if you've seen these but it seems likely there's a connection with this William Joass of (what I think looks like) Collenard/Colleonard...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01smz/ & http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sn0/
From here...http://www.rootschat.com/links/01sn1/
Seems the name changed to Joyce, possibly down to their accent?
Annie
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Thank you Annie, the witnesses always make for interesting research linking the families and connections. Below the baptism of Thomas Joass it looks like below William Joss of Coleonard? and ? Ogilvie were the witness to John and William Lovie. One would expect they live in close proximity to the Joass' or have a family connection.
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Some published sources:
Annals of Banff vol 1:
https://archive.org/details/annalsbanff00cramgoog/page/n119/mode/2up?q=joss
Annals of Banff vol 2:
https://archive.org/details/annalsofbanffcom02cram/page/n7/mode/2up?q=joss
Records of the county of Banff 1660-1760:
https://archive.org/details/recordsofcountyo00banfrich/page/142/mode/2up?q=joss
I have set the search to "Joss", but if you change it to "Joass", you will find other entries.
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GR2...
I'm unsure if it's just me but the above links are not working, could it be to do with the search engine I'm using, Microsoft Edge?
Edit...I had found those yesterday & had the same problem.
Anyone can sign up free here then can view those records & 1000s more as a premium member for £11 per 3 month...
https://en.geneanet.org/library/doc/34456/records-of-the-county-of-baniff-1660-1760-one-hundred-years-of-county-government
Annie
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The links for the annals worked for me using Safari.
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Thank you GR2, some interesting and relevant items in the annals. Appreciate you posting them.
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GR2...
I'm unsure if it's just me but the above links are not working, could it be to do with the search engine I'm using, Microsoft Edge?
Annie
I use Edge and they are working for me.
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Thanks for the input. Lots to review. :o
It seems to me , through my research that all the Walter Joasses are related...
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/64fa6af6865574765b80d76e?locale=en
The name is passed down through the families and holds some importance. Walter Joass 1684 could be a brother to Alexander Joass sr. that died 1763. Assuming he lived to be 75 , he should have been born mid to late 1680's. He had a son named Walter and his other sons John and Alexander both had Walters in 1780.
I'm happy for this Freereg document because it's not on SP. It's new to me ...
Walter Joass 1684:
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/595ed195f493fdbd7ae3e773/walter-joass-baptism-banffshire-banff-1685-03-06?locale=en
If Alexander Joass sr (died 1763) and Walter Joass 1684 are brothers then William Joass of Collenard is their father. Of course they could be related but not brothers.
There are several William Joasses of Collenard. Some have Sir-so-and-so as witness and are related to the lairds of Collenard and others like Walter 1684 just have regular civilian folk witnessing baptisms. seem like a Collenard connection for Alexander Joass of Burnside (1722-ish to 1802) is more and more likely.
I'm trying to ascertain if Walter Simson that appears on the baptism of Walter Joass 1684 is the same Walter Simson that witnesses for Walter Joass 1727. In the latter instance he is Wit: Walter Simson in Auchenbaidie. It could be a related people with the same name like a father and son. Hard to tell. I thought I had a clue there. :'(
Ancestry has zero mention of Walter Joass 1684 ... Which makes me think he holds promise!
Walter Joass 1728 Alvah has Wit: Walter Gray at Milne of Ryland
Walter Simson born 1695 to Walter Simson and Janet Wilson has Wit: Walt. Gray, Walt. Gall
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/595ed1b3f493fdbd7ae3f224/walter-simson-baptism-banffshire-banff-1695-06-25?locale=en
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I'm happy for this Freereg document because it's not on SP. It's new to me ...
Walter Joass 1684:
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/595ed195f493fdbd7ae3e773/walter-joass-baptism-banffshire-banff-1685-03-06?locale=en
I was very suspicious of this. The date is given as 1684/5. In Scotland New Year's day has been 1st January since 1600, so should just be 1685. In England it would still be 1684, so 1684/5 makes sense for an English record. Maybe it's like that because it's a pro forma for the whole of the UK.
I looked at ScotlandsPeople for all 1685 baptisms in Banff, but no Walter Joasses under any spelling. I then looked for a date near to 6th March so I could see the page the alleged baptism would be on and found William Elder having a son Walter baptised on that day. Looking at the original, the entry reads:
March 6
The said day Walter ye Lawfull sone of Wil
liam Elder in Colleonard was baptized
Wtss Walter Reaburne Walter Milne &
Walter Simsone
So the father is William Elder, not William Joass. Also William Elder is "in" Colleonard, which means he is a tenant there, not the owner. If he owned it, it would say "of" Colleonard.
The baptism took place on a Friday, so probably took place in the house, rather than the church. It was not unusual at this period to get people who shared the child's Christian name to be witnesses.
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Good find GR2, perhaps what it has been transcribed incorrectly an what they are saying is the Walter is the son of Walter Joass, the elder. It would make sense however I have not checked to see if there is a Walter Joass that is the elder (father).
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The father's name is definitely William Elder, not William Joass the elder. If it had been William Joass the owner of Colleonard, it would have said "William Joass of Colleonard". Also William Joass of Colleonard graduated from King's College, Aberdeen, on 12th July 1660, so he would be referred to as "Mr William Joass". At that period Mr was not a general title for any man, but was restricted to those with a university degree of M. A.
There were two or three men called William Elder having children baptised in the parish of Banff in that period. Two have wives named, unlike the William Elder here. A William Elder with no wife named has a son, Walter, baptised in 1687. You would have to look at the original entry, but it may well be that the Walter Elder baptised in 1685 had died and the Walter Elder baptised in 1687 was a younger brother.
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Thanks for that Graham.
What an unfortunate glitch... the odds of it randomly putting Joass after Walter ::)
Cruel joke by the universe...
Had you not pointed out that this was actually Walter Elder, I would have been utterly convinced that this was a Walter Joass missing link relative.