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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: TAMOWEN4 on Thursday 01 December 22 10:32 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
after a number of years trying to find out where my maternal grand father Thomas Clarke was born, I have with the help of others, found he states he was born in Bradford Yorkshire.
That information was found on the 1921 Census of Scotlands People.
My grandfather was born c1892. He married my gran in Glasgow 1918. Died in Greenock 1979.
Clearly came to Scotland prior to 1918, however, I have no idea when and I can't find him on the 1911 Scottish Census.
On their marriage Certificate it states he was a bachelor, living and working in Greenock and that his parents were William Clarke (Occupation Milk Salesman) and Elizabeth Beaumont. Both his parents noted as deceased.
I have copies of my grandparents Marriage certs and my grandfathers death cert, however, would like to find his birth certificate, can one of you good people give me some advice/help?
thanks in anticipation
Thomas Clarke Owen
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This is the signature of a Thomas Clarke, born in Bradford in 1892, who was briefly in the army in 1915. Is there any similarity with your man's signature?
(https://i.imgur.com/3LvJsE7.png)
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Hi, thanks for your message.
I am no hand writing expert, however, I took a look at my grandfathers signature on one of his daughters birth certificate. It looks very similar, in particular the way the letter C in Clarke but as I say i'm no expert.
I seem to recall my late mother saying her father had served in WW1 and sustained a head wound the accuracy of that I can't confirm.
thanks
Tommy
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Looking at the GRO indexes, I can't see any Clark(e) births at all with mmn Beaumont in the Bradford registration district between 1890 and 1910, though there are a few in other districts not too far away.
So, are all the records you have consistent about his date/year of birth?
And, are any of the marriage witnesses possible siblings (or other relations)?
Also (ShaunJ might already have found this) are there any clues about his parents in his service record, if that is him?
Lastly, what do you know about Thomas's occupation - it might just help in tracking him down.
It would be quite unusual at that date for a birth not to be registered, so not being able to find it suggests an anomaly in the date, place or name. I did try looking for a birth under Beaumont, and there were a few of them, but more research would be needed to see if any ended with William Clarke as a stepfather, say.
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The soldier whose signature I posted was married to a widow, Annie Lilian Smith, in Llandilo in 1915, and claimed to be the father of one of her children born in Llandovery in 1909.
The same Annie Lilian Smith married Alfred Edward Watkins in Swindon in 1921 and they are together in the 1921 census, along with the child born in 1909.
That Thomas Clarke suffered from a spinal disease (Pott's disease) which led to his discharge from the army after just a few weeks' service.
Perhaps you could post a signature of your Thomas Clarke? Presumably one would be available from his 1918 marriage record as well as the birth certificate that you mentioned.
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Thanks. on looking closer I don't think the signatures are the same. I think it unlikely that it is the same Clarke as mine, however, can never be sure.
It states on his marriage certificate he was a bachelor, unless telling fibs!! ::) ::)
thank you again.
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arthurk Hi Arthur,
I am not 100% on dates. My mother and her older brother were I think perhaps incorrect with their fathers DOB. To explain, when they registered his death in 1979, his age is given as 89, making his year of birth 1890.
On his marriage certificate of 1918 he is noted as being 26 and on the 1921 census his age is given as 29 which would make his year of birth 1892.
Witnesses on his marriage certificate were a workmate and my grans sister. So no clues there.
He was employed as a foundry labourer in Greenock, what his occupation was before coming to live in Scotland I have no idea. I was told he had served in WW1, however, I don't think it was the same T. Clarke as Shauns.
The place of birth he gives on the 1921 Scotlands People census is Bradford. And his deceased parents names on his marriage cert are William Clarke and Elizabeth Beaumont.
Sorry this is all the info I have, granddad Clarke remains a bit of an enigma.
thanks for you help
kind regards
Tommy
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There’s a Thomas Clarke born 18 Feb 1891 admitted to Shadwell Centre West Yorkshire Reformatory School in Leeds. His mother listed as Elizabeth Beaumont alias Clarke. Thomas has been taken around begging no home. Mother has had 5 children by 3 different men.
There’s more information on the record which is on Ancestry.
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Well done Gibel - an excellent find
Thomas' brother - William Sterne BEAUMONT alias CLARKE
Born 26 June 1894
In 1911 William is working as a boot repairer, as a servant in the home of Ernest SILVERWOOD in Ryhill,
By 1916 enlisted as Sapper William S Beaumont in Royal Engineers
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Thomas appears to have gone to Wales in a placement when leaving the home. His brother William goes to Ryhill Wakefield.
1901 census 7 Fountain Court Leeds
William T Beaumont Head married 50 born Netherton Yorkshire
Elizabeth Beaumont wife married 36 born Berwick Northumberland
Thomas Beaumont son 10
William S Beaumont son 6
Harriet Beaumont daughter 8
Anne Beaumont daughter 1
All children born Bradford
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Date the boys were admitted to the home was 4 Feb 1904
Neither child had a home and both had been taken about the country by the mother on begging expeditions
The mother was sent to Inebriate home for 2 yrs and 3 years.
On the record for Thomas, there is mention of Mr John Jones in Llandilo, South Wales. To me, it is unclear if that is where the mother ended up, or where Thomas was sent.
Probably Thomas.
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William Tell BEAUMONT (the husband on 1901 census posted above)
was a milk dealer on the baptism of the daughter Annie in Oct 1899 in Leeds
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Harriet in 1911 is a between maid at a small school in Park Crescent Southport
Annie in 1911 is in a Leeds Union Scattered Home at 310 York Road Leeds with a foster mother and 6 other girls
William’s birth reg states mother’s maiden name Lines and Annie’s gives Lyons.
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There is a burial for a William Beaumont (correct age with census) in Leeds on 8 Jan 1904
Address - General Infirmary; occupation labourer
The Jan 1904 death date would make sense with the children being taken into care in Feb 1904
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Good find that Neale 1961.
I wonder what Elizabeth’s real name was?
Must stop now but I do enjoy a good chase for family!
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1911 Plasbach Farm Llandilo Carmarthenshire Wales
John Jones Farmer head
Thomas Clarke servant 20 cow man
They’re all stated to speak Welsh and English and all born Llandilo but…………
I really am stopping now!
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Couldn’t sleep
Elizabeth Beaumont marries again on 6 Jan 1908 to Thomas Henry Welsh at All Saints Leeds. She states her father is Andrew Lyons which ties in with 2 of her children on the GRO BMD Indexers having Lines and Lyons as the mother’s maiden.
I searched for Elizabeth Lyons in Berwick father Andrew and there she is christened 9 Sept 1869 at the parish church Berwick upon Tweed Northumberland and with her parents on the 1871 census.
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.... while I was out running errands ---- Gibel has posted excellent work. What progress!!
Off to bed now, Gibel, unless the brain is still firing on all cylinders. :D
Yes, "Plasbach" is the name of the place in Llandilo - written on 1904 Children Centre document for Thomas. I could not make out what it said.
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Birth rego
LYONS, ELIZABETH Mother: HINDMARSH
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in BERWICK Volume 10B Page 343
Elizabeth Lyons baptised 9 Sep 1869 Berwick-upon-Tweed
Parents Andrew LYONS (Tailor) and Ann
Andrew Hume LYONS bapt 14 Sept 1828 Berwick to parents George ( a weaver) and Agnes
He died Berwick 1885, aged 56.
From newspaper 11 March 1885: “Andrew Lyons, tailor, Walkergate Lane, Berwick has died from the effects of a fall while under the influence of liquor. Deceased was famed as a celebrator of irregular Border marriages at Lamberton Toll.”
Andrew’s first wife was Cresswell RAILTON – she died 1864
Second wife was Ann – who would be the mother to Elizabeth. Ann died in 1878.
(Since Andrew was responsible for irregular marriages, this may explain why there seem to be no records for his own marriages.)
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We still don't know where the name CLARKE comes from, or who the exact father is for Thomas. He probably never knew much about his parents - hence the confused names on the marriage record.
If the birth date 18 Feb 1891 for Thomas is correct, then he should be on the 1891 census - but I haven't found him yet.
Nor have I found a birth registration for him - I have tried various surname ideas. No doubt some brilliant RootsChatter will find it.
The other question is what happened to Elizabeth LYONS/ CLARKE / BEAUMONT / WELSH, after she married in 1908.
There are a number of prison records for an ELizabeth around the right age, with various alias names including Clarke, in the Manchester and Leeds area. Do you think they relate to "our" Elizabeth? I am not convinced.
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Hi, firstly I want to thank everyone for taking the time to carry out searches in connection with my inquiry about my grandfather Thomas Clarke.
I did not see a great deal of him when I was a young lad, (I'm now 69 ;)), however in later years up until he passed I got to know him quite well. He always struck me as a gentle, quiet man.
My late mum always said her dad was a kind man.
In later years Thomas became a 'soldier' in the Salvation Army in Greenock.
I know there was mention in the family that he had worked in the Welsh Mines?? and that he had served during WW1 but no way of confirming that.
I also know Thomas was subject on occasion to periods of what we now mental health problems having to be admitted to hospital.
A thought occurred, when he married in Glasgow 1918 (on the marriage certificate, it states by Declaration) he must have had a birth certificate?
I think Neale1961 may be correct in that my granfather never knew much of his younger life.
I know my late mum said her dad never spoke of his past!!
thanks again one and all
Tommy C Owen
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Just connecting up the Llandilo items
On the record for Thomas, there is mention of Mr John Jones in Llandilo, South Wales
1911 Plasbach Farm Llandilo Carmarthenshire Wales
"Plasbach" is the name of the place in Llandilo - written on 1904 Children Centre document for Thomas
The soldier whose signature I posted was married to a widow, Annie Lilian Smith, in Llandilo in 1915
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I have found the baptism for Harriet CLARKE / BEAUMONT. She was the sibling closest in age to our Thomas CLARKE
She was baptised with the surname CLARKE in Jan 1893, Bradford Holy Trinity, & born 20 Dec 1892
Parents Thomas and Elizabeth CLARKE – 12 Caine Place. Thomas was a joiner.
Her birth registration is under Harriet CLARK in 1893
and shows mother’s maiden name as LINES (LYONS)
Seems likely that Thomas Clark the joiner is also the father to Thomas CLARKE junior.
There is a Thomas CLARKE joiner living in the Leeds area. He is born abt 1849 in Lincoln and is married with two children.
Can anyone see any other possible Thomas as a joiner?
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I have found the baptism for Harriet CLARKE / BEAUMONT. She was the sibling closest in age to our Thomas CLARKE
She was baptised with the surname CLARKE in Jan 1893, Bradford Holy Trinity, & born 20 Dec 1892
Parents Thomas and Elizabeth CLARKE – 12 Caine Place. Thomas was a joiner.
Her birth registration is under Harriet CLARK in 1893
and shows mother’s maiden name as LINES (LYONS)
Seems likely that Thomas Clark the joiner is also the father to Thomas CLARKE junior.
There is a Thomas CLARKE joiner living in the Leeds area. He is born abt 1849 in Lincoln and is married with two children.
Can anyone see any other possible Thomas as a joiner?
1901c 12, Charlotte Street, Bradford
Thomas Clark Head Married 1858 Joiner Bradford
Hannah Clark Wife 1858 Eccleshill
Florrie Clark Daughter 1882 Worsted weaver Shipley
Alf Clark Son 1884 Dress goods designer Bradford
Herbert Clark Son 1891 Bradford
John W Clark Son 1893 Bradford, Yorkshire
Dora Clark Daughter 1897 Bradford
1891 family living Moss Street, Horton, Bradford, son Harry born 1879
1911 family living 33 Park Lane Bradford, Bradford
Thomas occ cabinet maker
There’s also this Thomas on 1881
19, Picton Street, Manningham, Bradford
Thomas Clarke Head Married 1850 Joiner & grocer Barby, Yorkshire
Elizabeth Clarke Wife Married 1854 Asselby, Yorkshire
John A Clarke Son 1876 Bradford
and this one on 1851 census
31, Longcroft Place, Bradford
Thomas Clark Head Married 1818 Joiner Yorkshire
Ann Clark Wife Married1820 Yorkshire
George Clark Son 1845 Bradford
Marey Clark Daughter 1847 Bradford
John Clark Son 1849 Bradford
Thomas Clark age 64, married
Admission 16 3 1920
Trade Carpenters & Joiners
Union name Amalgamated Society Of Carpenters, Cabinetmakers & Joiners
Union branch Bradford 1
Record set Britain, Trade Union Membership Registers
Added
Did an address search for 12 Caine Place on 1891 census no Clark(e) at that address, William Belsher and family living at no 12
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Just adding for Tommy a comparison signature for Thomas Clark who signed his daughter's birth registration in 1919. Unfortunately, his marriage registration on SP from 1918 is only a copy from the original and does not include original signatures. Tommy not sure if you have viewed other birth registrations for your grandparents.
The signature above is the one Shaun included earlier from the WW1 service papers. The second is the one from the birth reg.
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Monica, no signatures showing.
I tried to attach something to a post earlier, and discovered it wouldn’t upload, as this is a lookup request. :(
I don’t know how Shaun did it.
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That is odd. I can see signatures I added on my post ;D Not sure why. I can also see the one that Shaun added (which is where I got the WW1 one from!).
Monica
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Yes I can see the signature in Shaun's reply #1, but not the one in your reply. I was unable to add any attachments myself. VERY odd - maybe you have special powers, that we mortals don't. ;)
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This is a lookup board which technically doesn't allow image attachments.
At risk of being scolded by the powers that be, I used Imgur to post the signature image. You can upload your image to Imgur then copy the BB code and post it here.
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Like this? Not sure if it will show ::)
https://imgur.com/a/bCTJzc3
Well, not here but does show if you click on link.
Monica
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Those signatures are pretty much identical
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I do think you guys have finally found Tommy's granddad Thomas ;) It has been a long old search for his roots for Tommy and his family.
Tragic early years for sure...but went on to live a very happy and contented life with family in Scotland.
I am ignoring the elephant in the room of a possible first marriage before he headed off to Scotland. He was discharged in 1915 from the army and potentially marrying Helen 3 years later in Glasgow.
Monica
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The daughter, Lillian Annie, named on Thomas’ military papers, I think was adopted when he married her mother – ie. NOT his biological child.
Her birth registration is under the surname SMITH:
Lillian Annie SMITH 1909 Llandovery with mother’s maiden name KIRKBY.
I have put together a TIME LINE for Thomas CLARKE (from combining children centre records, census and military records – assuming they relate to the same man)
Nov 1906 sent from Bradford / Leeds to South Wales
Nov 1907 with Mr John Jones at Plasbach Farm Llandilo
Oct 1908 with Mr John Jones at Plasbach Farm Llandilo
Oct 1909 with Mr John Jones at Plasbach Farm Llandilo
1911 census Thomas with Mr John Jones at Plasbach Farm Llandilo
July 1912 still in Llandilo – but different address ( I cannot read place name)
On 24 June 1915, he attests for the military - Living in Ammanford and having just married on 12 June to widow Annie Lilian Smith.
He already had 1 year previous service with Welsh Territorial Force.
28 Aug 1915 He was discharged to an address in Lower Stratton, Wiltshire.
His medical record gives two different reasons for discharge
1. - Curvature of the spine [Tommy does that sound like your grandfather?]
2. - Potts disease of spine (which I understand is tuberculosis of the spine)
This caused muscle pain and rigidity, by was not the result of any military service.
I would suggest that the second diagnosis (Potts) was probably incorrect, as Thomas seems to have gone on to live a “normal” life.
Dec 1917 when Thomas first received a pension, his address was in St Thomas, Swansea.
1918 married in Glasgow. When exactly?
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Thomas’ mother Elizabeth used various names - BEAUMONT, CLARKE and her maiden name LYONS.
What is the other name recorded here, starting with H.
Alias Clarke. H??? or LYNES
https://imgur.com/a/R71EotO
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Hi, once again thank you to every one for the fantastic work done with this research.
As I have said before, my late mother said her dad never spoke of his past, so nothing that I can confirm as my mother and her siblings all deceased.
If all this information is regarding my grandfather and it does appear likely, it makes for difficult reading, having known him.
Thank you all once again.
Tommy
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Alias Clarke. H??? or LYNES
Looks like "Hunnie"
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Hunnie (Honey) is what I thought too, but it hasn’t helped me find her in the 1891 census.
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There's this 1891 census entry in
Newton Nawton, Kirbymoorside:
Elizabeth Clark 22 visitor born Berwick on Tweed
Thomas Clark, 1 month, son, born Newton Nawton
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Thomas Clark, 1 month, son, born Newton
That birth was registered in Helmsley RD, mmn Hume
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So could that other alias be Hume?
(https://i.imgur.com/7FFgUKV.png)
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Shaun, a brilliant find. That has to be them in the 1891 census.
So Thomas Clarke’s birth registration is
CLARK, THOMAS Mother: HUME
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in HELMSLEY Volume 09D Page 448
Hume was another of the names that Elizabeth used – I know where that comes from.
HUME was a family name. Elizabeth's father was Andrew Hume LYONS
Thomas’ baptism that I have been looking for was in Kirkdale on 12th March 1891.
Thomas, son of Elizabeth and Thomas Clarke. Abode Nawton. Father "a soldier"
https://imgur.com/a/rIW1rSu
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Dec 1917 when Thomas first received a pension, his address was in St Thomas, Swansea.
1918 married in Glasgow. When exactly?
Thomas Clarke married on 20 April 1918 in Glasgow. His address at the time was 7 Lauriston Street Greenock.
Monica
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Just read the posts on pg 5 (didn't see them till now).
;) You found his birth. That is brilliant.
So many aliases for Elizabeth :-\
Monica
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Abode Nawton
Ah so the 1891 census location is Nawton, not Newton !
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Link to related topic (military)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=868143.0
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Tommy, with group input, we have found your grandfather was born in Nawton, between Helmsley and Kirkbymoorside. I would say soon after his birth, he and his mother moved to Bradford / Leeds, as his sister was born there in late 1892.
You can now get Thomas Clarke’s birth certificate – details previously posted.
Tommy, in your PM to me you say you are confused about the information regarding Thomas Clarke’s parents seen on his marriage certificate (ie William Clarke and Elizabeth Beaumont)
In answer: We know that Thomas had a very fragmented childhood. He probably never knew his mother’s real surname (she used 4 aliases), but he remembered the name BEAUMONT – so that is what he recorded for her on his marriage.
The only father figure he remembered was William Beaumont (milk salesman), but he changed his surname to CLARKE. Thomas may not have fully understood where his Clarke surname came from, and on his marriage, he would have been keen to hide that he was illegitimate. The shame of illegitimacy was a great burden for many at that time in history – there are very numerous examples of incorrect information being recorded to hide illegitimacy.
Also in your PM, you say you are not familiar with researching family history. It can be daunting / confusing when you first start out. In your grandfather’s case it has been a particularly complicated search – but a very interesting puzzle.
Do ask questions (by replying to this thread) if there is anything that needs clarification. We are all happy to help.
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Tommy, I have investigated further the numerous surnames used by Elizabeth, mother to your Thomas Clarke. I wonder if she sets a record for the number of aliases? :) When you look at it all chronologically however, it begins to make sense.
Elizabeth LYONS (Aliases HUME; CLARKE; BEAUMONT; WALSH)
• 9 Sep 1869 Elizabeth LYONS baptised Berwick-upon-Tweed
Parents Andrew Hume LYONS (Tailor) and Ann (nee HINDMARSH)
Step-siblings: Adam 1842, Andrew 1852, Peter 1854, Dorothy 1857 (married Herriot), Agnes 1859 (married Tait), George 1861.
• 1871 census. Elizabeth LYONS age 2 living with father Andrew 43 a tailor, mother Ann 41, sister Dorothy 15, brother George 10 in Berwick-Upon-Tweed
• 1878 Death of Ann LYONS (Elizabeth’s mother).
• 1881 census. Elizabeth HUME age 12 a visitor to the Richardson household in Ulgham, Northumberland. [Interesting that she is not at home with her father, and she is already using another name at such a young age – had she run away from home?]
• 1885 Death of Andrew Hume LYONS (Elizabeth’s father).
• Jan 1891 Nawton Birth of son Thomas CLARKE – father Thomas CLARKE a soldier
• 1891 census. Elizabeth CLARK age 22 a visitor in the home of Thomas BOWES in Nawton, Kirkby Moorside - with baby son Thomas.
• Dec 1892 Bradford Birth of daughter Harriet CLARKE – father Thomas CLARKE a joiner. Address – 12 Caine Place
• June 1894 Bradford Birth of son William Sterne BEAUMONT – father William Tell BEAUMONT; mother Elizabeth formerly LYONS
• 17 Oct 1899 Leeds. Birth of daughter Annie BEAUMONT – father William Tell BEAUMONT a milk dealer. Address- Castle Street
• 1901 census. Elizabeth BEAUMONT wife to William Tell BEAUMONT. Living in Fountain Court, West Leeds with children Thomas 10, Harriet 8, William 6, Annie 1.
• Jan 1904. Death of William BEAUMONT (Elizabeth’s husband)
• Feb 1904. Elizabeth’s children are taken into institutional care, and she is sent to an “inebriate home” for about 3 years.
• 6 Jan 1908 Leeds. Elizabeth BEAUMONT widow and servant , age 36 (actual age 39) Married Thomas Henry WELSH age 35, a cloth dresser.
• 1911 census. Lizzie WALSH age 37 (actual age 42 ) wife to Thomas WALSH age 39, cloth dresser in cloth mill. Living at Fleece Square, South East Leeds. She records 2 children born and 2 children living – possibly in contact with only 2 children?
? Possible death in 1935 for Elizabeth WALSH, burial 18 June 1935 Dewsbury
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Great summary, Neale :)
Monica
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Just had another look at this thread today, what fantastic work everyone, I could not have achieved this without the help of so many.
So many alias's for my grandfathers mother!! Maybe I should change my middle name of Clarke to Hume, Lyons etc etc ;)
Thank you again Tommy
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Hi all, just a wee update. I found records of Thomas Clarke inmate in a reformatory, his brother William also an inmate.
1901 census shows Thomas, William, Harriet and Annie.
My cousin has been in contact with a grandson of one of Thomas Clarkes sister.
Wonderful being able to find out about my grandfathers past although I'm not sure my late mother would have been so happy!
Tommy