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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: curtainhooks on Tuesday 29 November 22 21:25 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I was wondering if anyone could help me find either:
Alfred Ernest Walker b.circa 1881 in Kent
Letitia Pitcher b.1879 in Kent
Alfred Ernest Walker b.1900 in Kent
in 1901.
Alfred and Letitia married in 1902 in Kent, but had their son Alfred before that and so he was registered and baptised under the name ''Alfred Ernest Pitcher'', with no father listed. I have them together on the 1911 census and Letitia on the 1891 but not Alfred on the 1891 (if anyone happens to find that that would be great too but don't worry about that one).
Almost 100 percent sure they would be in Kent, but could be in: Sussex, Surrey or London
On Alfred Ernest Pitcher (Walker)'s baptism record it states their abode as ''5 Harry/Henry Court'' from what I can see, but can't find that on a census anywhere. Maybe I read it wrong.
Letitia and Alfred, although lived in houses, were both from romany travelling families and travelled throughout their childhood, so there is a chance they were in tents/caravans at the time or not on the census at all, so if they're un-able to find that's fine :)
Any help is appreciated, Thanks!
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No towns mentioned? Eg which town was the place of baptism?
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Sorry, Alfred (b.1900) was baptised in Folkestone, Alfred (b.1881) and Letitia were in Dover on the 1911 census and married in Elham.
(Alfred born in Dartford) (Letitia born in Sandwich)
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Hi,
No Letitia and family but found the following in 1901
Surname transcribed and looks like on the original, Pridcher.
Address transcribed Harvey Court but not too clear on original.
5 Harvey Court, Folkestone, Elham, Kent.
Julie Ann Pridcher head mar 54 Hawker in Flowers Wittersham, Sussex.
George " son 18 Mariner Folkstone, Kent
Ada " dau single 16 Hawker in Flowers "
Cathy
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I think it is Judith Ann Gatehouse who married Dangerfield Pitcher in 1876 in Eastry.
Letitias parents ?
Cathy
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Does Letitia appear twice on the 1911 census? Once with Alfred Ernest WALKER and family at 6 Mill Lane Dover. There is another Letitia WALKER (32, Sandwich) at 169 West Street, Deal.
William S KENNAIRD 84 (or 34?) Lee, Kent (pedlar)
Letitia WALKER 32 Sandwich (flower seller)
Letitia 6 Folkestone
Frank 1 Deal
John PITCHER 34 Sandwich (hawker flowers)
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Thank you that’s really helpful Cathy! I had given up trying to find them on the 1891 census. Yes, that is Judith (Julia) who was Letitia’s mum. Thank you!
Yes she does appear twice, there was a bit of confusion about an affair going on between Letitia and William Kennaird. Hence why she was at two different mens houses at the same time… I think that’s what was going on there as after the 1911 census she stays with William and Alfred Walker goes off with another woman.
Thanks everyone
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A possibility?
1901 Folkestone, Kent, England Census
A E Pilcher, age 10 months, born c1900, Folkestone, Kent, England
Relation to Head - Son Boarder (Boarder's Son)
Mother - Lillie Pilcher, Boarder, Single, age 22, born Sandwich, Kent, Charwoman
Ecclesiastical parish - St Michael and All Angels
44? Peter Street
Boarding with Charles T. Dalby and wife, Eliza
Note: the census taker was not keen about crossing his t’s - the name could be Pitcher
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Thank you lisa, I think that this is probably them,
Letitia often went by ''Letty or Lettie'' and Lillie isn't too far off sound wise, but it definitely looks like lillie rather than lettie on the census..
These are the most reasonable people I've found and I think it's likely it's them so thank you ! :)
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You’re welcome. If you view the census image, you will notice that a number of t’s were not crossed. If one would add the cross marks, Lillie almost becomes Lettie. (I don’t have the census image open right now, perhaps it could actually be Le rather than Li?)
Also, according to the internet, the 1901 census was taken 31 March 1901. According to his father’s WWI pension record, little Alfred was born 29 May 1900. In the 1901 census, Alfred was recorded as being 10 months old. So, the age fits. No guarantee that it is the correct family, though.
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PS. I looked at the image again, it does look like Lillie. The l’s are “open”, rather than just a single stroke.
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I think I can see the dot above the ''i'' in her name but you're right it could easily be Lettie without the t's crossed. And Letitia wrote her name down as Littice or Lettuce sometimes so Lillie doesn't seem that far off compared to Lettuce! I also have little Alfred's birth being 29th May, I'm sure this is them. Thank you very much :)
(sorry for another question but you've all been so good at finding them I want to ask about finding Letitia's parents on the 1911 census because I've never been able to find them either, could I ask it on here or do I need to create a new post?)
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I don’t mind it here; I’m actually not sure what is preferred by others, though. But, I do need to go to sleep soon, so I can’t help too long (as much as I would like to do).
PS. I do like the name Lettuce, though. :)
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I'll quickly write their information here and if anyone wants me to delete it I will:
Judith (Julia) Ann Gatehouse 1847-1912 b.Sandwich
Dangerfield Pitcher 1851-1923 b.Tenterden in Kent or Sussex maybe ?
both changed what they put as their birth place.
Dangerfield went by: Danny, John and James also but mostly Dangerfield in case that helps
Either of them on the 1911 census would be great! (Or Dangerfield on the 1901)
Don't worry about helping you've helped enough with the 1901 census already!
edit: Judith's surname may have reverted back to Gatehouse as they both split up after Dangerfield got let out of prison.
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Glad to help; I have trouble pulling myself away. ;D Be back in a few moments. Someone else might find them before me, too.
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I’ve not been able to find them in 1911, sorry. I will look again on Wednesday if they haven’t been found. Good night.
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That's fine, thank you for looking :)
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Dangerfield Pitcher 1851-1923 b.Tenterden in Kent or Sussex maybe ?
both changed what they put as their birth place.
Birth
PITCHER, DANGERFULL
Mother's maiden surname: BAKER
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in MEDWAY Volume 05 Page 349
In 1871 his father gives Chatham as the place of birth.
Debra :)
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Sorry I wrote the wrong things for their birth places
This is what I meant to write:
Dangerfield Pitcher 1851-1923 born in Chatham but put his birth place as: Sandwich and Ramsgate and Chatham
Judith (julia) Ann Pitcher 1846-1912 born in Tenterden but put her birth place as: Appledore, Wingham, Sandwich and Wittersham (Wittersham is in Sussex).
Please ignore what I said earlier, I'm not sure why I wrote the wrong places
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Just to add- I can confirm that the ''Lillie Pilcher'' and ''A E Pilcher'' were Letty and little Alfred, so thank you for finding it lisa
The couple they're boarding with: Charles T Dalby and Eliza Dalby are related to Letty, Eliza Dalby (Eliza Todd) is Letty's cousin, so it's definitely them :)
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Just to add- I can confirm that the ''Lillie Pilcher'' and ''A E Pilcher'' were Letty and little Alfred, so thank you for finding it lisa
The couple they're boarding with: Charles T Dalby and Eliza Dalby are related to Letty, Eliza Dalby (Eliza Todd) is Letty's cousin, so it's definitely them :)
Excellent! I’m just popping in for a moment but I hope to return tonight, California time. In the meantime, perhaps someone can find Dan* (it sometimes helps to use an *)/John/James in 1901 and 1911. Is there a possibility that he used an alias surname?
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There is a possibility as many travellers did, but haven't seen Dangerfield ever do it himself..
Further back one of the Pitcher's used the alias ''Cork'' but that's all I can think of
Thank you, will try using the *
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Just found this, wondering if it could be Judith, she's in a workhouse in Elham:
Julia Ann Pitcher b. 1839 field worker b. Ashford, kent
Her birth date is a little off and so is her birth place, but could be her...
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Just found this, wondering if it could be Judith, she's in a workhouse in Elham:
Julia Ann Pitcher b. 1839 field worker b. Ashford, kent
Her birth date is a little off and so is her birth place, but could be her...
Have you searched for this Julia in other census returns? It could eliminate her if she is found (elsewhere in other years). Otherwise, perhaps it is her.
Out to rake leaves now…
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On Julia Ann PITCHER' s cemetery record it says she was from "85a Marshall St Folkestone" (on 23 Aug 1912). Have you looked for this address in 1911? I don't have a findmypast subscription (which lets you search by address), but will try a bit of sleuthing.
Danderfield died at "Hill House" (the Elham Workhouse) 6 Nov 1923, so presumably he also stayed in the area, though in 1911 he could be elsewhere.
Will keep looking.
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There is a "D PIETARD" (60, born Chatham) dealer, married, 5 children, lodging at 15 & 17 Radnor Street, Folkestone in 1911. I can't see this person in any other census. A possibility? :-\
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Meant to add also that the entry you found for Julia Ann PITCHER at the Elham Workhouse certianly looks possible, though the age is out. It has "married" but that is crossed out and "widowed" written above, which to my mind makes it seem more possible. I can't see a similar person in previous censuses.
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Just looked at the census for ''D Pietard'' Maddy and I think this is probably him (or at least it's the best match so far)! He often was down as a general dealer and the birth and birth place are correct.
The only thing is that he put that his 5 children were living when 1 had died, but this could have been a mistake and his son died while he was in prison so there's a small chance he didn't even know...
Thank you for finding this! :)
I agree with what you said about the married/divorced part on the 1911 census for Julia- makes it more likely to be her.
Will look for 85a Marshall Street now, thanks for that information too
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85a Marshall Street in 1901:
Annie Eliza Dodd wife 29
Ernest Richard Dodd head 33 carter carrier
John Dodd nephew 9
can't see any relation to the Dodd's and Judith Pitcher but I do know there were travelling ''Dodd'' families in Kent, so maybe they were friends?
Interestingly, I looked at 87 Marshall Street just in case and found Gilderoy Scamp (30) and family living there. Gilderoy Scamp is relative of Judith's husband (dangerfield), wonder if that's just a coincidence... ???
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85a Marshall Street in 1901:
I think you meant the 1911. :D
Yes, perhaps just acquaintances, or could be a different family in a years time. Interesting about the neighbours. Are the family on the other side recognisable at all?
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Sorry, yes, 1911
I should probably go to sleep now I'm getting all the dates mixed up!
Thank you a lot though Maddy you were very helpful :)
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Ha! I know that feeling, always one more thing to look up before bed. ;D
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There is a "D PIETARD" (60, born Chatham) dealer, married, 5 children, lodging at 15 & 17 Radnor Street, Folkestone in 1911. I can't see this person in any other census. A possibility? :-\
Bit of a coincidence...
Folkestone Express, Sandgate, Shorncliffe & Hythe Advertiser
17 February 1906
page 5
Hythe County Bench
- Daniel Pitcher,
- of 15 Radnor Street, Folkestone
...
There's a number of other likely newspaper items for Dangerfield/Dan and Julia.
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Good find cuffie, that certainly sounds like PIETARD should be PITCHER. :D
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Thanks for that cuffie!!
I think that can confirm it’s dangerfield pretty much…
Unless there was a daniel pitcher born in the same year as dangerfield in Kent but seems unlikely.
There are lots of newspapers on dangerfield, doesn’t seem he was a very nice man… but never found this one so thanks :)