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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: Rds on Tuesday 29 November 22 09:36 GMT (UK)
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Old Suffolk Photo – Who are they? Would love to get the photo to their relatives!!
2 unknown People, safely assuming Husband and Wife with lots of medals.
In the Suffolk Area… Maybe Hessett, Beyton, Rougham etc. general Stow, Suffolk area.
Maybe connected to – Bullett family, Feakes family, Cobbold family, Sergeant family or Cocksedge family… just to name a few!
Medals include what looks like a “Queen's South Africa Medal” so per WW1, two 1914 Star and/or 1914–15 Stars and many others relating to WW1.
Not sure what the lady is holding, it has the word “South” on the right-hand side, so maybe something to do with South Africa?
Very much think it is a long shot, but they might be related to someone here, or someone might recognise them… who knows!
Anyways… if they are your relatives, then you are welcome to the photo and I would love to know how/why it came to be in my late Grandmother’s (or her parents/in laws) possession.
Thank you!
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My first thought was that they could be brother and sister, and she is wearing her late husband's medals.
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My first thought was that they could be brother and sister, and she is wearing her late husband's medals.
Looks likely, they do have similar facial features, chin, over the eyes, both seem to have brown eyes, face shape is also not dissimilar.
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The lady appears to be holding a Boer War Christmas Gift Tin:
https://www.godalmingmuseum.org.uk/?page=boer-war-christmas-tin
Tony
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At least 3 of the medals worn are the same on both people.
I agree with ShaunJ they look like brother and sister.
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Yes She is wearing the medals on Right breast. Done for a deceased relative
I wear with pride my deceased fathers On Armistice day.
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Yes, could always be a brother and sister. I always assumed Husband and Wife, wearing their Son's medals... but then would be on the wrong side for the gentlemen, as they are on his left breast they must be his own!!! Interesting!
So yes, it could also be a brother and sister, him wearing his own medals and her her late husband's or Son's medals.
or a Husband and Wife, him wearing his own and her their deceased son/s.
Would definitely agree with tonepad, it is a Boer War Christmas Gift Tin.
Was this a gift from the State? And for a reason? Or was it widely available for all to purchase... will do some research on this Tin to find out more!
As I do have a very very distant relative that was KIA in the Boer War, he also had 4 bothers that served in WW1, only one of which came home... this could be the sole survivor of the brothers and a sister/wife/mother etc.
But again how the photo ended with my grandmother is another mystery, as I said it is a very very distant relative... something like a 3rd or 4th cousin 3 or 4 times removed...
But I will explore this branch on the tree more and see where it leads!
Thanks all for your replies, information and time!
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Good evening,
She is wearing the QSA with 4 or 5 bars, KSA with 2 bars. The 1914 or 1914/5 star, the war medal and victory medal.
He is wearing the same six medals plus two others (top Left) which I have to go and ID. Interestingly he has all his sewn on to the waist coat. Maybe done for the photo or he has them on there permanently to wear when going out.
John915
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Back again,
He was obviously a career soldier. He is wearing, top row L to R, India general service medal 1895, Queens sudan medal. Queens South Africa medal and Kings South Africa medal.
Bottom row L to R, 1914 or 1914/15 star, War medal, Victory medal and the General service medal 1918.
I believe he probably wore them all the time as the colours are faded more than would be normal.
John915
Added; Due to the fading I first thought the 2nd medal top row is the East and Central Africa medal. But when I blew the picture right up There is a vague strip down the middle so that made it the QSM.
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Fabulous photo.
Great work identifying the medals and the tin which I was interested to see. I thought it might be like the WW1 Queen Mary Christmas tin given to all those serving abroad - contents included cake, cigarettes, etc, (as well as a picture of Queen Mary). Google tells me the Boer War was a tin by Cadbury and contained bars of chocolate.
Rds. If I were you I would be keeping that photo. If it was in your grandmother’s possession it is extremely those lovely people are extremely likley to be family members. Maybe start by trying to find any who died in the Boer War. :)
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Hi John915,
Thank you so much for the detailed information on the medals, this will be a massive help!
I only recognised a few myself, and was struggling with the rest.. as some of them I had never seen until today!! Thank you !!!
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Ruskie, Thank you! I was always keeping the Photo, it is my Nans!! But if I could find closer relatives, that may have never seen the photo I would love them to have a copy, physical and digital!!
It is a photo to be proud off, and I am! Even if I do not yet know who they are!!
I do have a very very distant relative that was KIA in the Boer War, he also had 4 bothers that all served in WW1, only one came home.
I have a picture of their parents (attached) and I would think it is different people, and definitely many many years later.
So this could be the sole survivor of the brothers with a sister, or wife.
But again they are very distant relative, something like 3rd or 4th cousin 3 or 4 times removed...
But my grandmother did love to write and keep in touch with lots family so anything is possible.
I just wish I had of listened more when I was younger...
Anyways, will continue to explore this branch on the tree more and see where it leads!
Thanks again all
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What you said in the first post about “if these are your relatives, you are welcome to the photo” gave the impression that you were looking to give the photo away. Glad to hear that is not the case.
In your last post you say you were always keeping the photo and “this is my Nana” …. Are you saying that the woman in the photo is your Nana? :-\
Sorry I am a bit confused. Might just be me. ;D
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Good evening,
I have been looking again at the last medal the gentleman is wearing. I said it was the GSM 1918. However I was wrong, it has the wrong type of hanger, the metal piece between ribbon and medal.
The only other medal I can find that fits is the Cape of Good Hope service medal. However that was only given to colonial troops for three campaigns in South Africa between 1880 to 1897. Basutoland 1880/81 Tembuland and Griqualand 1880/81 and Betchuanaland 1896/97.
The last would be the obvious one given the other medals. Chronologically it should be in the top row before the QSA. However medals awarded by other countries are worn after the UK medals. It was this position that threw me off course. Also it is the wrong way around, it should have the Queens head showing because it is a British medal although for colonial troops only. This begs the question, why does he have it. It may be that he was attatched to a colonial unit in the late 1890s.
That would mean he is not one of the families you named as none of them appear on the CoGH medal roll. Unless he got it unofficially but wears it on his suit anyway.
If you know the name of the distant relative you could see if his records have survived or his medal index card. If the name is different to the others you gave I can check the medal roll again.
I will do a little more research anyway.
John915
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I agree that knowing the names of any who served in these conflicts would be useful - even knowing family names and some dates dates of birth may help.
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Rds,
There is a tree on Ancestry for a William Cobbold b.1847 Bradfield St.George, Suffolk & who married a Sarah Elizabeth Gill in Bury St.Edmunds in 1882??.(should be 1871)
If I'm following their entries correctly, they had a son named Frederick Cobbold b.1880 but later killed during WW1 in Flanders, France 1915. (leaving a wife & 2 children)
This may help inputting names to the people in the 1st photo.
As an aside; in the 1881 census for Bradfield St.George, there is William Cobbold, his wife Sarah and 6 children including Frederick aged 3 months but also an Emma Gill a dau aged 14 yrs.
Could the above be of interest?
Alan
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What you said in the first post about “if these are your relatives, you are welcome to the photo” gave the impression that you were looking to give the photo away. Glad to hear that is not the case.
In your last post you say you were always keeping the photo and “this is my Nana” …. Are you saying that the woman in the photo is your Nana? :-\
Sorry I am a bit confused. Might just be me. ;D
Hi Ruskie, sorry for the confusion. Yes it was a bit ambiguous... apologies just meant they are welcome to a copy of the photo! Physical copy, digital both... but gotta find them first!
Also I said "it is my Nans" ie the photo was my Nan's, it was her possession, who I am to give it away!
It is not her in any of the photos.
The first, was the "unknown" people.
The second is parents of a very very distant relative that was killed in action in the Boer War.
So, as the unknown couple have items relating to the Boer War, I thought the two maybe connected.
But (to me), they look so different (the second couple) I don't think it could be the same people.... or at least many many years later...
I am thinking the unknown people could be a brothers with a sister, wife, or other female relative of the man KIA in the Boar War, rather then his parents as they look so different.
But if siblings I would've thought they would've been too young to have some of the medals this gentlemen has... but I need to go through and date all of the medals.
Hope this helps clear thing up.
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I agree that knowing the names of any who served in these conflicts would be useful - even knowing family names and some dates dates of birth may help.
Details for the man KIA in the Boer War are
Charles Cobbold
B:22 Nov 1871 Hessett, Suffolk, England
D:6 Feb 1900 Modder River, South Africa
Details for the men in WW1 (Charles brothers) are
William Cobbold
B:January 1876 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:8 May 1915 France & Flanders
Frederic "Freddy" Cobbold
B:January 1881 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:24 Apr 1915 & Flanders, France
Arthur Cobbold
B:3 Mar 1889 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:19 August 1916 Balkans
The only surviving brother;
Alfred Cobbold
B:7 Apr 1878 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:6 Feb 1937 Ellesmere, Shropshire, England
So maybe this first photo is Alfred Cobbold... and a female relative.
Details of parents of all these men (the people in the second photo) are;
William Cobbold
B:abt 1847 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:Jun 1922 Bury St edmunds, Suffolk, England
Sarah Elizabeth Cobbold (nee Gill)
B:July 1844 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:Sep 1924 Bury St edmunds, Suffolk, England
If the name is different to the others you gave I can check the medal roll again.
Thanks again John915, the surname would be one you already checked. All details above.
Thank you so much for checking
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Rds,
There is a tree on Ancestry for a William Cobbold b.1847 Bradfield St.George, Suffolk & who married a Sarah Elizabeth Gill in Bury St.Edmunds in 1882??.(should be 1871)
If I'm following their entries correctly, they had a son named Frederick Cobbold b.1880 but later killed during WW1 in Flanders, France 1915. (leaving a wife & 2 children)
This may help inputting names to the people in the 1st photo.
As an aside; in the 1881 census for Bradfield St.George, there is William Cobbold, his wife Sarah and 6 children including Frederick aged 3 months but also an Emma Gill a dau aged 14 yrs.
Could the above be of interest?
Alan
Thank you Alan, I think that maybe one of my trees on Ancestry, or one I have connected with.
Just posted the details, and all seem to match with what you have seen.
But without photos of these people, (I only have the parents, William and Sarah) I think it will be impossible to ID any of the children to see if they match the unknown people I posted.
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The man in the photo is wearing the Meritorious Service Medal, MSM (top row, far left). Many of these medals were issued between 1916 and early 1920s as Immediate Awards (as opposed to Annuity Awards of the MSM, which carried a pension. One of these Immediate awards was earned by Corporal/Acting Sergeant A.F. Cobbold in the second quarter of 1918. London Gazette 17 June 1918:
"His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve of the award of the Meritorious Service Medal to the undermentioned Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men, in recognition of the valuable services rendered with the Forces in France during the present war: ---
Then follows a list of 4,251 names including A.F. Cobbold. A.F. Cobbold was serving with the Bedfordshire Regiment. He is the only "Cobbold" to be awarded the Immediate MSM.
There is a memorial in Ipswich of soldiers from Suffolk who lost their lives during the Second Boer War 1899 -1902. Among them is: Private Harry COBBOLD, 1st Suffolk Regiment. Disease, 7.3.1902.
In addition, further Suffolk soldiers who died in the same war in South Africa are listed on the War Memorial in Bury St Edmunds, including Private C. Cobbold, 2nd King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, died of disease 6 Feb 1900.
If I find any further info I'll post it.
francoso
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Thanks Francoso!
I have conflicting information on the medal now.
One was he is wearing, top row L to R,
India General Service medal 1895, Queen's Sudan Medal. Queens South Africa medal and Kings South Africa medal.
Bottom row L to R,
1914 or 1914/15 Star, War medal, Victory medal and the Cape of Good Hope service Medal.
Or maybe the General service medal 1918 but it was thought more to be the Cape of Good Hope service Medal in the end.
But you are saying top row, far left is Meritorious Service Medal, not the India general service medal 1895. I have looked at both and they have a very similar type of hanger. But I think the ribbon here matches the MSM more.
If the Corporal/Acting Sergeant A.F. Cobbold who earned one of these MSM is
the same as I have:
Alfred Cobbold (Middle name not yet known.)
B:7 Apr 1878 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:6 Feb 1937 Ellesmere, Shropshire, England
He died as a Sergeant Major.
If they are the same man then I am more and more starting to think this photo is Alfred Cobbold and a sister, or a brothers widow due to her wearing medals too, medals that would be too old for any of her sons to have earned. So must come from a husband - which could either be one of Alfred's brothers that fell in WW1 or the brother that died in the Boer War due to her holding the Boer War Christmas Gift Tin, or even this is Alfred sister (as it was said the people in the photo look similar).
I don't think it can his Wife as where would the medals come from?
As I said they are too old to be their sons, and he is wearing his own so she must be a widow or a sister wearing one of her fallen brothers medals.
The brothers widows would have been;
(Frederic "Freddy" Cobbold) - Rosina Cocksedge
B:11 Jul 1884 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:Dec 1926 Bury St edmunds, Suffolk, England
(William Cobbold) - Alberta Phyllis Willingham
B:31 Jul 1879 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:Dec 1979 Hendon, Middlesex, England
Arthur and Charles Cobbold doesn't seem to have married.
The brothers full details have already been posted.
Alfred's sister were;
Elizabeth Cobbold (married "Mr Humphreys" no other details)
B:Oct 1873 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:24 Sep 1937 England
Emma Gill (married Charles Winter B:abt 1861)
B:abt 1867 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:sep 1932 Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England
Annie Cobbold (married Samuel John Norman B:October 1883)
B:19 Feb 1884 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:1 Mar 1969 Greenwich, Greater London, England
Lillie Cobbold (married George Alfred Newman B:4 Mar 1873 D:Jul 1950)
B:8 July 1886 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:15 Dec 1964 The General Hospital, Barnet, Hertfordshire, England
The second photo I posted would be Alfred's parents
William Cobbold
B:abt 1847 Bradfield St George, Suffolk, England
D:Jun 1922 Bury St edmunds, Suffolk, England
Sarah Elizabeth Cobbold (nee Gill)
B:July 1844 Rougham, Suffolk, England
D:Sep 1924 Bury St edmunds, Suffolk, England.
Private C. Cobbold, 2nd King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry on the Bury St Edmunds Memorial is Sergeant Major Alfred Cobbold brother, Charles.
Charles Cobbold
B:22 Nov 1871 Hessett, Suffolk, England
D:6 Feb 1900 Modder River, South Africa
Charles doesn't seem to marry, and he is the only brother the falls in the Boer War, and as the lady has the tin from the Boer war, the widow route doesn't work... so back to her being a sister...
I will see if i can find any more pictures of Alfred and his sister and see if it matches the photo first posted.
Thanks all
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Hi Rds. The medal top row far left is definitely the MSM with Field Marshall's Bust of GV; The medal next to it is most likely the Queen's Sudan medal 1896 -1898, which has a ribbon half yellow half black with a thin red line down the middle (not really distinguishable in the photo). This medal was awarded at the same time as the medal bottom row fat right which is the Khedive's Sudan medal 1896-1898 and has a yellow ribbon and a broad blue stripe down the middle (the desert and the Nile running through it).
Thus, top row L to R is: Meritorious Service Medal (Immediate Award) GV Field Marshall's Bust; Queen's Sudan Medal 1896-1898, Queen's South Africa 11 Oct 1899-31 May 1902, King's South Africa 1901-1902 with two bars South Africa 1901 and South Africa 1902 (these were the only two bar awarded for the KSA medal)
Bottom row L to R: either the 1914 or 1914/15 Star (I think it would be the 1914 Star as your man was a full-time regular and would have been part of the standing arming when WW I broke out. The 1914 Star was awarded only to those who served in France or Belgium between 5 Aug 1914 and midnight on 22/23 Nov 1914. This is followed by the Victory Medal and then by the Khedive's Medal.
If this is indeed A.F. Cobbold's Medals, I will see what else I can find about him.
The medals being worn by the lady are from L to R: QSA with what looks like six bars (the bottom two appear to be issues rivetted together, The KSA with two bars South Africa 1901 and 1902, the 1914 or 1914/15 Star, and the Victory Medal. And of course she is holding Queen Victoria's Box.
Best
francoso
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Hi again Rds. Further to above, the male in the photo wearing the medals is not A.F. Cobbold. Alfred Cobbold attested to the Rifle Brigade on 19 Oct 1899 but he served in India, Aden, Home, then WW I in Europe. Back to the drawing board.
francoso
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Good evening,
My apologies for mis identifying the MSM. A little research tells me that the ribbon was plain crimson until 1916, 1916 to 1917 it gained white edges. In 1917 it gained the centre stripe.
Further, as an immediate award it is worn AFTER the Victory medal, 26,000 were issued, 6 with bars for subsequent awards.
In 1917 however it was decided to give them for acts of gallantry out of the front line. 366 of these were issued with only one with a bar. This affects where it is worn, gallantry medals are worn before all campaign medals.
So we are looking for a man who was awarded the MSM for gallantry. I have looked but can't find a list of recipients for this.
John915
Added; https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/medals/meritorious-service-medal-army
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Thanks John for reminding me re MSM for Gallantry: that was the trigger Their is a small booklet published in 1979 compiled by Major J.D. Sainsbury, titled "For Gallantry in the performance of Military Duty". in that book there is only ONE MSM awarded to the Suffolk Regiment, No 4450 RSM W.A. Read, 2nd Bn Suffolk Regiment. I found further information on the man's award from "The Meritorious Service Medal --- The Immediate Awards 1916-1928" viz "His Majesty the King has been graciously pleased to approve the award of the meritorious Service Medal to the undermentioned Warrant Officers, Non Commissioned Officers, and Men, in recognition of devotion to duty and valuable services rendered whilst Prisoner of War or interned, which services have been brought to notice in accordance with terms of Army Order 193 of 1919. To be dated 5 May 1919.
He was part of the Standing Army as he embarked on 15 Aug 1914, thus qualifying got the 1914 Star. He also qualified for the "Mons Clasp" No. 2/1107. He was taken Prisoner of War.
His Medal Index Card states: Read, William A., Suffolk Regiment, W.O. 2 and then CSM 4450. 1914 Star, Clasp and Rosette dispatched 16 Jul 1920, British war Medal and Victory Medal. Date of Entry to Theatre of War 15-8-1914.
Has anyone got the Roll for QSA and KSA --- I gave away many of my books many years ago.
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RSM William Arthur Read, MSM, born 1882 3rd Qtr Samford Reg. District, died 29 Jan 1961 Ipswich Reg. District. Probate of William Arthur Read of 13 Goring Road, Ipswich, died at Ipswich and Suffolk Hospital, Administration (and Will) London 10 April 1961 to Beatrice Noel Hitchens, married woman. Effects pounds 797 5s 1d. Do the names ring any bells ?
francoso
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Thank you both so much for the detailed information on all the medals! Amazing! Means a lot to me!
Sorry for the delayed response, YES! The name Read is on my tree, but not one I have looked into yet. And I need to explorer that branch more to understand the relation.
I will be back very shortly!!
Thanks again!
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Rds. I think references to the "married woman" Beatrice Noel Hitchens also includes "Hitchins" so keep in mind both spellings when checking the name.
Cheers
francoso
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Hi Rds. When checking out your connection to William Arthur Read, perhaps take the following into consideration:
At the Weselyan Chapel, Pyle Street, Newport, Isle of Wight on 25 Oct 1911, William Arthur Read, 29, Bachelor, Sergeant 2 Battalion, Suffolk Regiment, Resident at time of marriage "Beulah", Clatterford Royal, Carisbrooke; father Edwin Arthur Read, Gardener, married Beatrice Ellen Goodman, 24, Spinster, Resident at time of marriage same address as Read above, father William Goodman, Captain in Army (Retired). [Captain in Indian Army Department].vMother of William Arthur Read was Alice Augusta Read (not found maiden name yet).
William Arthur Read born 01 Aug 1882, Holton St Mary, Suffolk
Beatrice Ellen Goodman, father William Goodman, mother Ellen Jane Godden, born 24 Aug 1887, Dum Dum (now name of airport for Calcutta), West Bengal, died 19 Mar 1964, Ipswich, Suffolk.
On 13 Nov 1913, baptised at St John the Evangelist (Bath) Leonard Alfred, son of Arthur and Beatrice Ellen Read, abode 27 Hungerford Road, Weston, Bath, occupation painter.
William Goodman aged 26 (born about 1859), father John Goodman, married Ellen Jane Godden or Goddess, aged 20 (born about 1865), father George Godden or Goddess, on 3 Feb 1885, at Dum Dum, Bengal, India
Maybe of significance is a William James Goodman born in 1869 with father Henry Augustus Goodman, who married a Mary Margaret READ on 4 Oct 1897 in Bengal, India with father Robert Read. William James was 28 and Mary Margaret was 26 (born about 1871).
Hope this is helpful and not confusing matters further ! It could be that the Goodman family and Read family go back some way in time.
Cheers
francoso
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1. There is a Beatrice Noel Read born Naas, Co. Kildare, Ireland in Apr 1914 Qtr. I cannot find info regarding her parents. Perhaps William Arthur Read and Beatrice Ellen Goodman were stationed in Ireland with the Army at this time.
2. Beatrice Noel Read married Brian Thomas Hitchins Apr 1939 Qtr at Deben, Suffolk (if she is the correct Beatrice Noel Read, then she would have been 25 in 1939).
3. When, RSM William Arthur Read, MSM, born 1882 3rd Qtr Samford Reg. District, died 29 Jan 1961 Ipswich Reg. District, he left his estate to Beatrice Noel Hitchens, married woman. This would make Beatrice Noel Read the daughter of William Arthur and Beatrice Ellen Goodman. Is that likely ?