RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kerry => Topic started by: siljegampedalen on Sunday 27 November 22 22:37 GMT (UK)
-
Hello,
I have hit quite a "brick wall" in my search for relatives of Michael Mahoney sr. More specifically, his parents.
Im aware there could be different spellings of names, I just don't know where to start as I am not irish myself.
Known information
Michael Mahoney sr was born in 1856 in Coed Duon, Monmoutshire, Wales. When he is born we are given the information that his parents are Martin Mahoney of Londonderry, Kerry, Ireland and Margaret Calahane of Kerry, Ireland. He has at least three siblings: Johanna, Patrick and Mary.
In the 1861 census it is stated that Martin is from Ireland, and 50 years of age. This would mean his birthyear to be around 1811. Martin passed away on the 4th of April 1879 in Aberkenfig, Wales. Unfortunately less is known about Margareth. One birth-year we have "somehow" obtained is 1829.
Questions
My questions would be if anyone had any information about Martin and Margaret? I have tried to locate their birth-records or marriage records but have not have any success. I have not found any proof of them being irish other than what is stated in the census. But I have tried every other trail and thought I would ask for help here. Maybe someone comes across it and happens to be a relative, og know anything about them.
I have a lot of information about their son Michael, and therefore I know a little bit about their life in Wales. Anything before moving to Wales is a mystery.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
In advance, thank you so much.
-
Just wondering if the "Kerry' has been mistranscribed from Derry so that Martin Mahoney may have been born in Londonderry (the City) in Derry or Co Londonderry the County.
You have given the names of the siblings of Michael (Johanna, Patrick and Mary) were they born in Wales? Have you tracked their BDM to see if there are clues? What was the birth order of Michael, Johanna, Patrick and Mary?
When did the parents (Martin/Margaret) died in 1879 & ? who reported the deaths?
ETA
Could you let us know the religion please? Essential/useful for searching Ireland.
Also the occupations of Martin & Michael.
-
Just wondering if the "Kerry' has been mistranscribed from Derry so that Martin Mahoney may have been born in Londonderry (the City) in Derry or Co Londonderry the County.
You have given the names of the siblings of Michael (Johanna, Patrick and Mary) were they born in Wales? Have you tracked their BDM to see if there are clues? What was the birth order of Michael, Johanna, Patrick and Mary?
When did the parents (Martin/Margaret) die and who reported the deaths?
Hello. I realise I should have added more information. Thank you for your questions.
It could have been transcribed wrong as you say. Margaret however it says Kerry County, IReland, which makes me wonder if the whole of Michaels Londonderry is plain wrong information and something that was lost along the way.
Patrick is the oldest known sibling and was born in Ireland around 1847 and followed his parents to Wales. This is based on his age in later censuses. In the 1861 census for Llanvihangel Llantarnam, Monmouthshire, Wales, it is stated that he is from Kerry County, Ireland as is his parents. It is also mentioned that he is 13 years old.
Mary was born around 1859 in Llantamam, Monmouthshire, Wales. She was two at the time of the 1861 census.
Julia is a unknown sister that was born around 1861. I say unknown because we found out about her yesterday. She is ten years old in the 1871 census.
Johanna was born in 1864. We have a copy of her birth certificate. She was born in Aberkenfig, Wales.
As for the parents deaths, Martin died on the 4th of April 1879 and it was his daugther Mary (then married Fitzgerald) that was present at the death and reported it. We have a copy of his death certificate. Unfortunately we have not managed to find information about Margarets death. I will note that her name varies from Callahane/Callaghan/Cochrane based on different registers and certificates. I dont know the reason for this, I guess it could be due to people hearing different things or not understanding handwritten information when it has been transcribed.
I hope this clears some of your questions up.
I am not too sure what BDM means. :)
-
I unfortunately do not know their religion.
At Martins death it is stated that he was a general labourer. During the census for 1861 he is a masons labourer.
Michael worked as a railway packer/worker in 1901. In 1911 he was a platelayer.
-
When Michael and Alice get married, the marriage certificate states "Solemnized at the registers office in Bridgend". I do not know if this is useful information about their religion or not, but that is all information I have managed to gather unfortunately.
-
Welcome to Rootschat :)
In 1861 4025 /69/22
Martin shows as born Co Kerry and Margaret and son Patrick are dittoed the same.
Here is 1871 5420 /26/19
with more children.
Michael also dittoed as Kerry
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V516-Z6Q
If you have not used Famiky Search before, it is free but you need to register/log in.
-
Where do you have the information re Michael’s birth especially Margaret’s name and ‘Londonderry’
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
Births
Michael Mahony mothers name Coughlin
1856 March quarter Newport Volume 11A Page 176
1858 Newport
Mary - mother’s name Coughlin
1861 Bridgend
Julia - mother’s name Cochrane
1864 Bridgend
Johannah - mother’s name Cochrane
1867 Bridgend
Margaret - mmn Cochrane
1870 Bridgend
Catherine - mmn Cochrane
These children look like your family.
-
There’s no Londonderry anywhere in Co Kerry, as far as I am aware. There are however 3 places named Derry and a host of others with Derry in them. (It just means oak grove or something like that).
You can see all the townland names on this site:
https://thecore.com/seanruad/
-
Here is a marriage July 29th 1843, Killarney
Martin Mahony and Margaret Calahan which matches the names you give.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634329#page/252/mode/1up
It is difficult with the later surnames for Margaret.
There is an age gap between Patrick and Michael which would indicate child deaths or another marriage.
However, looking at Killarney records there are these for you to look at. You can use the link and then work through if you wish.
They are from the Latin which is what you will see.
All Killarney https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0675
10 May 1844
Joannam Mahoney -Martini and Margarita Cahalane
12th October 1845
Patritium Mahoney - Martini Mahoney and Margarita Cahalane
14th September 1851
Catherina - Martini and Margt Callaghan
16th July 1848
Mariam Mahoney - parents Martini Mahoney and Margarita Cahellane
Whether these are right, of course, is another matter.
The townland mentioned in the records is here The townland mentioned is Ballydribeen https://www.townlands.ie/kerry/magunihy/killarney/killarney-urban/ballydribbeen/
-
Wow! First of all thank you all so much.
As for how Londonderry came into the picture, I have realized that this must have been misinformation or misinterpretation from us. I should have specified that in the first post. I think, with you guys help, it is now clear he was not born in Londonderry and definitely from Kerry.
As for our known spelling of her name, comes from family "story", meaning what her name was thought to be spelled as. Her name has been spelled and said differently and unfortunately no one alive now had a solid answer.
I myself is mostly used to norwegian geneaology. The case here is that often names are misspelled because they were just written down how they were heard and hardly ever proof-read. Would I be mistaken if that is the case here as well? Could that explain why Margarets last name seem to differ?
Again, thank you so much for all of your questions and replies. It was quite overwhelming to see. Thank you!
-
Yes, peoples names and place names in Ireland were spelled differently all the time. And sometimes still are. It’s to do with literacy but also variant ways of anglicising Irish words. And there was an indifference to consistent spelling then too. Having a precise spelling is very much a 20th century phenomenon to meet modern requirements with officialdom.
In 1899, the Rev Smith reviewed the early records of Antrim 1st Presbyterian church (covering the years 1674 to c 1736) here in Ireland. He noted: “Even the same word is not always spelled alike by the same hand. Indeed spelling with most of the recording officials (and they must have been fairly numerous) was a matter of the most sublime indifference. The name William, for instance, is spelled 3 different ways in as many lines; while Donegore, a neighbouring parish, is spelled 10 different ways; but these extend over a good number of years. Many families names are spelled phonetically, while others are given in the most round-about fashion.”
Spelling varies.
-
Yes, peoples names and place names in Ireland were spelled differently all the time. And sometimes still are. It’s to do with literacy but also variant ways of anglicising Irish words. And there was an indifference to consistent spelling then too. Having a precise spelling is very much a 20th century phenomenon to meet modern requirements with officialdom.
In 1899, the Rev Smith reviewed the early records of Antrim 1st Presbyterian church (covering the years 1674 to c 1736) here in Ireland. He noted: “Even the same word is not always spelled alike by the same hand. Indeed spelling with most of the recording officials (and they must have been fairly numerous) was a matter of the most sublime indifference. The name William, for instance, is spelled 3 different ways in as many lines; while Donegore, a neighbouring parish, is spelled 10 different ways; but these extend over a good number of years. Many families names are spelled phonetically, while others are given in the most round-about fashion.”
Spelling varies.
Ah yes thats what I "feared" going into it as Irish names is not something I am familiar with. But that makes a lot of sense.
Thank you so much!
-
Martin Mahoney pops up in the "House Books" for Ballydribbeen in 1848 (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007246838_01153.pdf) and 1850 (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007246838_01048.pdf)
His house was rated as 3C "Thatched house with stone walls with mud or puddle mortar; dry stone walls pointed or mud walls of the best kind"/"Old and out of repair".
By 1853 he's gone and they seem to have built a lunatic asylum on the site! https://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/z/zoomifyDynamicViewer.php?file=123102&path=./pix/123/&rs=25&showpage=1&mysession=2851628426720&width=&height=
PS The list of the 1825 residents of Ballydribbeen are at http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004625671/004625671_00011.pdf
-
By 1853 he's gone and they seem to have built a lunatic asylum on the site!
Lunatic asylum in Ballydribbeen townland.
OSi National Townland and Historical Map Viewer.
Select MapGenie 25 Inch [1887-1913] in Basemap Gallery.
https://arcg.is/1H48Tq0
I am not too sure what BDM means.
Births, Deaths & Marriages