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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Caithness => Topic started by: PaulJC on Wednesday 16 November 22 16:46 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I have been trying to find out the family history of a sailor called John G Sutherland. I know that he definitely served in the 1950s because he was decorated for his part in the funeral of King George VI in 1952 as part of the HMS Excellent gin carriage. Through the 1911 and 21 Census I had thought that he was born in Dorset and the son of a Robert Baxter Sutherland (Born 1877 from Caithness) who served in the Royal Navy in Portsmouth BUT I have just seen a newspaper article From the Aberdeen Evening Express of April 1952 saying that OrdinarySeaman Jon Sutherland was from Halkirk, Caithness.
If this is correct my earlier research about his family is incorrect despite the connections with his fathers birthplace, his occupation in the Royal Navy and Portsmouth (father and son both served and lived there).
A medal also adds a further initial being J G C Sutherland.
I thought I had him but this nespaper article could mean a complete rethink ??? ??? ???
Paul
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If he is an ancestor you would know more details so what is your interest in him?
Have you considered he may still be still be alive depending on his age at the time of the funeral?
Have you looked on SP for a birth in Caithness. www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Have you looked for a JGC Sutherland birth in England or checked the 1939 register
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If he is an ancestor you would know more details so what is your interest in him?
Have you considered he may still be still be alive depending on his age at the time of the funeral?
Have you looked on SP for a birth in Caithness. www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Have you looked for a JGC Sutherland birth in England or checked the 1939 register
Not a relative. I am undertaking some research on sailors who served the Kings funeral for a publication on medals. I would guess his age would be at least 90 and quite possibly more. The England births and 39 Register drew a blank and we have ordered a cert from SP for a possibility born in Halkirk. Unfortunately, that will not estbalish if this man was the sailor but it might be a start.
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...as part of the HMS Excellent gin carriage.
Couldn't resist. You mean gun carriage I would imagine....though the idea of a gin carriage is interesting ::)
Monica
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The birth you have identified as a possibility, was this for a John George Sutherland b. 1928 in Halkirk?
I think his parents may have been George Sutherland and Helen Moodie who married the year before in Thurso, Caithness. George Sutherland's father was called John George so likely the John George b. 1928 was called after his paternal grandfather.
This John George b. 1928 I think may have died in 1999
JOHN GEORGE SUTHERLAND
Age 70
Mother's maiden name MOODIE
1999
280/ 165
Elgin
Monica
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Just a little more for this John from http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/people/mainfilter.asp
NM228514
JOHN GEORGE SUTHERLAND
c. 1929 to 18 APR 1999
Date of Birth : c. 1929
Spouse's Name : ANNE
Date of Death : 18 APR 1999
Place of Death : SPYNIE HOSPITAL ELGIN
Monica
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Thanks.
Yes the 1928 birth is the one we identified. I am trying to find a connection with the Navy.
The 1906 birth in Dorset had everything - a father who was in the navy who lived in Portmouth which is close to where John G was shore based. The I saw his father was from Caithness so I thought bingo. But then the newspaper article saying the seaman John G Sutherland on the gun carriage was from Halkirk nor Dorset. But there is that connection with Caithness.........
I have a feeling that the 1928 man is not the one I am after. The death in Elgin doesnt feel right unless he decided to go home after sailing the seven seas.
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This period you enter in the 20th C is always frustrating due to the lack of online records isn't it.
Monica
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Was this the medal you mention that was given to J G C Sutherland? https://www.emedals.com/naval-general-service-medal-1915-1962-near-east-gb2348
Monica
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The Elgin death looks like the same person as the Halkirk birth.
The information in the Moray database is from items in the Press and Journal on 20 April 1999 and the Northern Scot on 23 April 1999. However it's probably classified death announcements rather than an actual obituary with details about his life, because if there had been a fuller obituary the listing on the Moray web site would have contained, for example, his occupation or where else he lived if that information was in the obituary.
The death certificate would, of course, confirm his occupation, but it may well be that his occupation at the time of his death was something other than a sailor in the Royal Navy.
It seems much more likely that a sailor involved with King George VI's gin (sic) carriage would be quite a young man, so a birth in 1906 doesn't seem likely - that JGS would be 45 or 46 years of age in 1952.
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Is this the medal you were referring to?
https://www.emedals.com/naval-general-service-medal-1915-1962-near-east-gb2348
(https://www.emedals.com/naval-general-service-medal-1915-1962-near-east-gb2348)
Let me know if there is specific information you are looking for and I can go and check in Nucleus: The Nuclear and Caithness Archives which are not far from where I work.
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It seems much more likely that a sailor involved with King George VI's gin (sic) carriage would be quite a young man, so a birth in 1906 doesn't seem likely - that JGS would be 45 or 46 years of age in 1952.
The possible birth for a John Geoge in Halkirk is showing in 1928 on the SP index. Looking at the seamen who took part in the 1952 gun carriage procession on film now, they do look to be young and likely in their 20s (just like we saw in the recent funeral of Queen Elizabeth II).
Monica
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Was this the medal you mention that was given to J G C Sutherland? https://www.emedals.com/naval-general-service-medal-1915-1962-near-east-gb2348
Monica
No. Same man though and it forms part of the story. He was given a silver Royal Victorian Medal in 1952 for his part in the Kings funeral.
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Thanks.
Yes the 1928 birth is the one we identified. I am trying to find a connection with the Navy.
The 1906 birth in Dorset had everything - a father who was in the navy who lived in Portmouth which is close to where John G was shore based. Then I saw his father was from Caithness so I thought bingo. But then the newspaper article saying the seaman John G Sutherland on the gun carriage was from Halkirk not Dorset. But there is that connection with Caithness.........
I have a feeling that the 1928 man is not the one I am after. The death in Elgin doesnt feel right unless he decided to go home after sailing the seven seas.
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It seems much more likely that a sailor involved with King George VI's gin (sic) carriage would be quite a young man, so a birth in 1906 doesn't seem likely - that JGS would be 45 or 46 years of age in 1952.
The possible birth for a John Geoge in Halkirk is showing in 1928 on the SP index. Looking at the seamen who took part in the 1952 gun carriage procession on film now, they do look to be young and likely in their 20s (just like we saw in the recent funeral of Queen Elizabeth II).
Monica
I agree but the authorities are not being precise about what he actually did during the funeral. The men of HMS Excellent were responsible for the gin :D carriage but I know that some walked by the side rather than pulled so an older man could have done this. Although its frustrating we are glad we did not publish on the basis of the 1906 Dorset man. I wonder if any local newspapers had more information than The Aberdeen Evening Express of 1952 who just gave a name and place of birth?
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The England births and 39 Register drew a blank
There's an unmarried schoolmaster, born 16 September 1906, in the 1939 Register in Enfield, who could be John George Sutherland born in Poole and registered in the December quarter in 1906.
Also a death of John George Sutherland, born 16 September 1906, in Hampstead in the June quarter of 1977.
Clutching a bit at passing straws, it occurs to me to wonder who would have been walking alongside rather than harnessed to the gin :) carriage. Surely any such men would have been officers or petty officers, in which case would their rank not have been listed? If JGS' rank wasn't mentioned, would it not be reasonable to assume that he was a rating or AB and not an officer, and therefore young rather than middle aged?
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If JGS' rank wasn't mentioned, would it not be reasonable to assume that he was a rating or AB and not an officer, and therefore young rather than middle aged?
His rank is mentioned. He was an Ordinary Seaman. By the time he was awarded the Near East medal he was a Leading Seaman.
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Thanks again,
I saw the 1906 Poole man in the 1939 Register but I doubt that a schoolteacher would later have joined the navy as an ordinary seaman. The Halkirk reference has thrown us but there is this intriguing connection between the 1906 Dorset birth and his navy father from Caithness based in Portsmouth?
I guess were are hoping for someone in the area to know of the man and perhaps the local library might help?
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They all look like fairly young men so a birth registration in 1925-1934 seems likely.
Photo: https://tinyurl.com/ynkudph2
There's a JGC birth in Dunnet (not far from Halkirk) in 1933. Also a JG in Halkirk in 1928.
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I saw the 1906 Poole man in the 1939 Register but I doubt that a schoolteacher would later have joined the navy as an ordinary seaman.
Exactly so. That's why I don't think he is your man.
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They all look like fairly young men so a birth registration in 1925-1934 seems likely.
Photo: https://tinyurl.com/ynkudph2
There's a JGC birth in Dunnet (not far from Halkirk) in 1933. Also a JG in Halkirk in 1928.
Thanks,
On an earlier post you will see that we identified the 1928 Halkirk birth and have asked for the birth certificate. However, this will probably not help much.
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There are 10 public trees on Ancestry for the one born in Halkirk in 1928. Have you tried contacting the tree owners?
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There are 10 public trees on Ancestry for the one born in Halkirk in 1928. Have you tried contacting the tree owners?
No access to Ancesty so we didnt know that. Is it possible without membership?
Just some context re the medal that one or two posted about. Its anaval general service medal which is awarded for minor campaigns where there is no specific campaign medal. The clasp Near East refers to Suez in 1956 so we have him at the funeral in 1952 and still serving in 1956.
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You would need to be an Ancestry subscriber to use their messaging system.
Your money would be better spent ordering the service record from the MoD. That will answer your questions. ADDED Hmmm but you would need the death certificate to do that, so not as easy as I thought.
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This is a long shot, but there is a death of Cathol Magnus Sutherland, aged 93, mother's maiden surname Moodie, in Inverness in 2008, and a birth of Cathol Magnus Sutherland in Kildonan on 1936.
That led me to https://larcheinvernessblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Cathol%20Sutherland and it occurred to me to wonder if someone at Braerannoch might have some knowledge or record of Cathol Sutherland having a brother who was in the squad who drew King George VI's gin :) carriage?
The comments mention a brother Dai. There is a death of David Robert Sutherland, 68, mmn Moodie, in Thurso in 2005, and a birth of David Robert Sutherland in Kildonan in 1936. Might this be Dai, and if so did he have family who might remember Uncle John George and the gin :) carriage?
Or perhaps John George himself had family who would remember this story? I wonder who signed his death certificate?
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You would need to be an Ancestry subscriber to use their messaging system.
Your money would be better spent ordering the service record from the MoD. That will answer your questions. ADDED Hmmm but you would need the death certificate to do that, so not as easy as I thought.
We thought about the MoD but they also need a DoB.....................
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This is a long shot, but there is a death of Cathol Magnus Sutherland, aged 93, mother's maiden surname Moodie, in Inverness in 2008, and a birth of Cathol Magnus Sutherland in Kildonan on 1936.
That led me to https://larcheinvernessblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Cathol%20Sutherland and it occurred to me to wonder if someone at Braerannoch might have some knowledge or record of Cathol Sutherland having a brother who was in the squad who drew King George VI's gin :) carriage?
I appreciate all avenues but have other projects that hopefully will be easier to complete......
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From Dumfries and Galloway Standard - Saturday 05 April 1952.
Searches of the British Newspaper Archives show an Inst. Lieut. Sutherland on the HMS Excellent in 1950 (I don't know anything about Naval ranks so this could be a complete red herring).
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Thanks All.
He was identified from a Portmouth newspaper article on a motoring conviction in 1959 which gave his age as 25.
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He was identified from a Portmouth newspaper article on a motoring conviction in 1959 which gave his age as 25.
So who was he, then?
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From the Portsmouth Evening News 7 March 1959, there was mention of a John George Sutherland, aged 25. He had his driving licence taken away due to drink driving and he was applying to the court to have it back.
So following through on the numbers, this John George would have been c. 18 in 1952 when he took part in the funeral procession.
So expanding the search back in Caithness brings up this birth:
JOHN GEORGE C SUTHERLAND
1933
036/ 7
Dunnet
And there we also have the additional middle letter of 'C', which gives us J G C Sutherland mentioned earlier.
Monica
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Looks good .... but if he was from Dunnet, how did Halkirk come in to it?
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Hard to say with the little we have. Maybe family moved and lived in Halkirk in later years?
Details from the birth cert are needed really to narrow down his family and early years.
Monica
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Less than 13 miles between Dunnet and Halkirk....
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Less than 13 miles between Dunnet and Halkirk....
True, but they are separate parishes and not adjacent to one another.
If you were from either of those parishes you might, if you were giving information to someone with no knowledge of Caithness, say you came from near Thurso, but no native of Caithness would confuse the parishes of Dunnet and Halkirk, any more than they would say they were from near Thurso if they came from Wick.
It's just a small inconsistency that needs to be explained.
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There are two possible births in Caithness - J G Sutherland in Halkirk 1928 and J G C Sutherland in Dunnet in 1933.
What is the evidence that the J G Sutherland who was awarded the Royal Victorian Medal in 1952 is the same man as the J G C Sutherland who was awarded the Naval General Service Medal 1915-1962 - Near East?
J G C Sutherland's number seems to be P/JX.865395, according to the particulars of his medal. Is there a record anywhere of J G Sutherland's number?
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There are two possible births in Caithness - J G Sutherland in Halkirk 1928 and J G C Sutherland in Dunnet in 1933.
What is the evidence that the J G Sutherland who was awarded the Royal Victorian Medal in 1952 is the same man as the J G C Sutherland who was awarded the Naval General Service Medal 1915-1962 - Near East?
J G C Sutherland's number seems to be P/JX.865395, according to the particulars of his medal. Is there a record anywhere of J G Sutherland's number?
Its the same man. I have papers showing the additional initial J G C Sutherland showing that he was in attendance at the funeral. I am convinced he is the man from Dunnet born in 1933. Why it said Halkirk in the newspaper is a bit of a mystery but people have done stranger things.
An interesting side note - the article says he cancelled his honeymoon because of the motoring conviction (1958) but I cant find a likely marriage for that year.......
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John G Sutherland to Cynthia E Farquhar, Harrow 1958/Dec/5f/726?
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John G Sutherland to Cynthia E Farquhar, Harrow 1958/Dec/5f/726?
Saw that one as the only likely one. Was hoping for somewhere nearer home or perhaps Portsmouth area.
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From reports of the original trial in August 1958 he was " Leading Seaman George Sutherland (25), of 31, Braal Terrace, Halkirk, Caithness". He was due to be married in October.
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From reports of the original trial in August 1958 he was " Leading Seaman George Sutherland (25), of 31, Braal Terrace, Halkirk, Caithness". He was due to be married in October.
Thanks.
Perhaps the simple answer is that he was born in Dunnet but lived in Halkirk and so thats what was quoted in the Newspapers.
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Perhaps the simple answer is that he was born in Dunnet but lived in Halkirk and so thats what was quoted in the Newspapers.
That is the most obvious explanation.
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The marriage seems to be our man as there is a son born in 1960 in PORTSMOUTH............
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Your instinct about the 1928 birth seems to be correct.
There is reported to be a gravestone in Elgin that reads In loving memory of JOHN GEORGE SUTHERLAND died 18th April 1999 aged 70 a dear dad and grandad and loving husband of ANNE MACKAY
John George Sutherland married Annie Reid Mackay in Kildonan in 1960.
So I think that almost certainly eliminates the son of George S and Helen Moodie, born 1928 in Halkirk and died 1999 in Elgin, as a possibility for your J G Sutherland.
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There is only one child showing following the 1958 Harrow marriage that I can see.
Wondering if a divorce or the death of JGC following this? There is a possible marriage for Cynthia in Harrow in 1968 (Cynthia E Sutherland 5b/2189).
Monica
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There is only one child showing following the 1958 Harrow marriage that I can see.
Wondering if a divorce or the death of JGC following this? There is a possible marriage for Cynthia in Harrow in 1968 (Cynthia E Sutherland 5b/2189).
Monica
Yes there is but theres also the death of a Cynthia E Sutherland in Hampshire in 1999.
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Hard to say, isn't it. All guesswork without being able to see original documents.
Monica