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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: lukeedward on Tuesday 15 November 22 12:01 GMT (UK)
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I have been looking for information about Sophia Crowther for about 10 years. tried roots chat about 6 years ago but got nowhere. I have now tried following through her siblings. Florence Crowther led to me Kathleen Barrett (who was born Clara Crowther). This led me to Nellie Devine (nee Crowther) who was the daughter of Lester Crowther. Nellie had a daughter Brenda Devine who had two marriages in the 1970's. Firstly not sure if i have the correct Brenda. Last believed to live in St Helens area. Not sure if i am following the correct family. . would like to make contact to establish whether i am following the correct line or not. would appreciate some help
Luke Edward
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1911 census
Broughton, Lancashire
60 Charlotte St, Hightown
Morris Gross, 25, born Austria
Sophia Gross, 25, Saddleworth
Clara Crowther (sister), 18, Oldham
plus a boarder
...and there is a matching marriage record for Q4 1908. However I cannot find either Morris or Sophia in the 1921 census.
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Rootschat has a strict no living persons policy & your post suggests some of the people you mention could still be alive so you need to remove their names from your post to protect their privacy
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re 1908 marriage
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk shows him as Morris Gross & also Morris Simelman
An Annetta Gross Simelman b 1920 died 1996 Hertfordshire. Birth shows mmn Entin
Marriage 1919 Leeds - Rachel Entin to Morris Gross/Morris Simelman
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Son Sam Simelman born Prestwich March qtr 1910 mmn Crowther died June qtr 1911
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thanks for replies. sophia disappears after 1911 census. morris remarries 1918 stating he is a widower,. cant find death records for sophia
luke edward
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Morris remarries 1919 - not 1918
As you appear to already know about the remarriage & the 2 surnames plus he was a widower when he remarried - it would have been helpful to have included it in your post as it would appear Sophia died between 1911 & 1919.
Can you please edit your post to remove the names of the living persons
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Carole w
can you delete post please. apologies for breaching rules but was getting desperate after 10 years researching
luke edward
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Do you want to remove your post or just amend it to remove the names of living persons?
If just to remove the names - click on the MODIFY icon which will give you access to delete the names
If you want to remove it - no member can delete or amend another persons post. If you click on the "report to moderator" button you can ask the moderator to remove it for you
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had a go at modify. hope acceptable now
luke edward
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This is just a theory
Sophia is last documented in 1911 and Morris remarries 1919 - 8yrs later
Did she go "missing" & was declared "dead" after 7yrs. Doesn't mean she was actually dead
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Thanks for that. it is a possibility but i have found no trace of her using crowther gross or simelman names after 1911. As i mentioned the second marriage shows Morris as a widower. I am wondering if this was so he could get married a second time. As i have got nowhere with this after 10 years, i thought i would try and track down some of sophia's relatives to see if any of them might know what happened to her
luke edward
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There is a marriage in 1913 in Liverpool
Sophia Crowther 27 - spinster to William Beeby Lister - her father is shown as Samuel - station master
Only 2 Sophia Crowther births 1885-1887 & the Halifax one died as an infant
1891 & 1901 show your Sophia's father as Sam but not station master
A tree on Ancestry for William Beeby Lister shows her details match the 1891/1901 entries - birthplace Saddleworth
Might be worth checking the 1921 for her under Lister to see if birthplace matches
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Carole, just did the exercise you you posted and in 1921 she is Lister, born Sowerby Bridge, 2 children 1 aged 12 other 6.
John
added, Sowerby Bridge comes under Halifax reg district , so possibly not our Sophia.
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There are these interesting references in Newspaper Index Cards
29th April 1962
Will Sophia Lister (nee Crowther) born 1886 who married William Beeby Lister at Aigburth , Lancs in 1913 … communicate with ..
Same date as above
Will Sophia Morris, formerly Lister (nee Crowther) who left New Zealand about 1917 ….
Same date
Will William Beeby Lister , seaman born abt 1885 who married …
All asking them or anyone to contact the Public Trustee’s Representative, London.
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Thanks everyone. the plot thickens
as suggested checked 1921 but this shows birthplace as batley (25 miles from Saddleworth). So gut feeling this is not her. Also she is shown as spinster. Is she bending the truth like Morris who said he was a widower. in 1921 she has 2 children 15 and 11.
Heywood. I wasn't aware of Newspaper Index Cards. this appears to be on ancestry whereas i tend to use find my past. As I said gut feeling not right Sophia Crowther. do we know whether any of them contacted the Public Trustee office
Thanks again
luke edward
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The one that John quotes us, I think, Sophia Creamer married to Willie Lister in 1907, Halifax.
That is if I have the right one.
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I don’t think she is the one born Batley either.
William Beeby Lister married as a widower.
Added - sorry I meant re married later as a widower in 1927
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There is a marriage of a William Beeby Lister, widower aged 44, master Mariner 1927, Leeds. Son Lister/Speed born 1930 appears with mother in 1939.
Does this indicate that Sophia died 1913-27??
Death of a Sophia Morris -----MORRIS SOPHIA 80 MQ DEWSBURY 2B 462 Year 1966
John
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Sophia married morris gross or morris simelman. dont think she was ever sophia morris. Been researching this for 10 years. which is why i thought if i could find some relatives they might know what happened
luke edward
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Could be why she was Sophia Morris??
IGNORE
Think the Sophia Morris who died 1966 is the one on the 1939 register living in Batley - married
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A Bessie Lister mmn Crowther was born 1919 North Bierley
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thanks for replies. sophia disappears after 1911 census. morris remarries 1918 stating he is a widower,. cant find death records for sophia
luke edward
Is this definitely the same Morris?
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A Bessie Lister mmn Crowther was born 1919 North Bierley
Looking at another record, she is likely to be the daughter of William H Lister and Elizabeth A Crowther - married 1915 N Bierley.
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Sophia married morris gross or morris simelman. dont think she was ever sophia morris. Been researching this for 10 years. which is why i thought if i could find some relatives they might know what happened
luke edward
Do you have the marriage details for this marriage?
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marriage details at Lancashire BMD
https://tinyurl.com/yc4ahj8u (https://tinyurl.com/yc4ahj8u)
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Sorry, I meant place, her father’s name, occupation and witnesses.
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Sorry about my last post re Sophia Morris death. I have posted some wrong ideas in the past but that takes the biscuit. Had Morris on my brain, what brain you say. ;D
John
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Do you have Sophia's birth certificate with an exact dob, not recorded on her baptism record image sadly.
John
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Sorry about my last post re Sophia Morris death. I have posted some wrong ideas in the past but that takes the biscuit. Had Morris on my brain, what brain you say. ;D
John
If I recall that death is shown in public trees for William Beelby Lister and Sophia Crowther.
*and it’s a very good brain and very helpful :)
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These are the children of Samuel Crowther the labourer in an Iron Works and his wife Esther Martha
nee Lester.
Mary 1884 reg. Saddleworth -- death reg. 1884 age 0 Saddleworth
*Sophia 1886 reg Saddleworth (June Quarter)
James 1888 reg. Oldham
Lester 1888 reg. Oldham (twins)
Anne 1889 reg Oldham ----death reg 1892 age 2 Oldham
Caroline 1891 reg. Oldham -----death reg. 1891 age 0 Oldham
Clara 1892 reg Oldham
Florence 1895 reg. Oldham
Sarah Ellen 1897 reg. Oldham
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This corresponds with 1911 census
Esther Martha Crowther, 55 widow married 28 years Children 9-6-3
Florence 16
Sarah 14.
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The father Samuel Crowther death reg. 1907 age 46 Oldham
The mother Esther Martha Crowther death reg. 1911 age 55 Oldham
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Thanks for all replies.
Morris gross simelman is my wifes grandfather. So i know all about him and about sophia up to 1911.
My wife has an aunt who is in her 90's. the daughter of morris and his second wife. a few years ago when she was visiting she saw her parents wedding certificate showing her father was a widower. She got so agitated that we had to hide the wedding certificate. the conclusion was either that she never knew her father had been married before or that she did know and that we had uncovered a family secret. i.e that her father was not a widower. there is no one else to ask.
it is a mystery which i would like to resolve. The implications of him not being a widower could be mind blowing.
This is why I would like to trace relatives of sophia to see if any of them know what happened to her
luke edward
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Do you have Sophia's birth certificate with an exact dob, not recorded on her baptism record image sadly.
John
Luke , do you have this document?
John
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I have got loads of certificates but unfortunately not Sophia's birth certificate. I have kept the GRO in business with all the certificates i have ordered over the years.
luke edward
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I fully understand Luke about certificates. My reason for asking it may narrow down where she is if still alive in 1939, or a death after 1967.
John
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birth cert applied for. keeping GRO in business
luke edward
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Well done Luke, please please do let us know the details of certificate.
John
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From birth cert.
Sophia Crowther born 27th April 1886 Saddleworth. Sub District of Uppermill in the County of York
Address looks like Dobcross Saddleworth.
Interestingly father Sam is shown as a police officer but in 1901 census as a labourer in an iron works
I am now of the opinion that the marriage of Morris and Sophia ended about 1911/12. He claimed to be a widower and she a spinster so that they could continue with their lives. it sounds as untruths in those days were quite common, and checks on information supplied hardly ever checked. I believe Sophia married William Beeby Lister in 1913 and later Sophia Lester nee Crowther married Benjamin Morris in 1917 in New Zealand (found marriage in New Zealand records). Benjamin died 1955.
The entry in Newspaper Index cards is interesting. Dont know if contact was ever made with Sophia Morris
Thank you to everyone who has tried to help me. I think I have established as much as I am likely to get. Morris remarried in 1919 and the marriage was deemed legal. so thats it .
Luke Edward
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Hi
Just a quick update. I now have the three wedding certificates for Sophia Crowther. 1908 to Morris Gross. 1913 to William Beeby Lister and 1917 To Benjamin William Mawl Morris in New Zealand.
NZ certificate shows her birth place as York. Parents as Samuel and Esther and Samuels occupation as railway official. Interestingly all three certificates show her as being a spinster. Obviously a case of selective amnesia
Luke Edward
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Thanks for the updates, Luke.
I am glad you are sorted out now. :)