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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: avrilw on Tuesday 15 November 22 11:54 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I am researching the GEEN family from Parracombe, Devon.
I am specifically searching for the baptism of Agnes Geen. She married 1766 and was buried in 1816.
There are two choices of baptism
1 - 3rd May 1741 in Martinhoe, Devon the next parish to Parracombe. This date ties with her age at death which was 75. BUT she would then have had 3 children in her forties, the last at 46. The naming pattern also adds up, her mother also being Agnes.
2 6th May 1747 in Parracombe. The other trees on ancestry have all chosen this option, but have not bothered to find other children apart from their direct line, and have all taken the info from each other.
I chose the first option, but am a bit worried about her having children so late. My Nan had a child at 44 but is 46 reasonable gien lack of health care at the time?
Which option would you chose?
Avril
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I don't think healthcare has anything to do with it. It is more a question of biology.
The onset of puberty is regulated by the number of day/night cycles the person has had and the amount of nutrients they have consumed. There are well documented occurrences of late, or delayed, puberty of males in mining communities. Bad food and lack of daylight caused the slow start. I believe the oldest start was aged 26.
All women are born, more or less, with the same number of eggs in their ovaries. This gives them a certain number of years of possible fertility. If the onset of puberty is delayed by a few years, it will push that fertile period to later in life.
So I think that your number 2 woman could quite possibly have fallen pregnant later in life. Whether the child survives is a whole other question.
Regards
Chas
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thanks Chas
I never thought to check if the last child survived, good thinking
Avril
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I have had a few women giving birth in their mid to late 40s according to their own baptism, and the baptism of their last child. One Suffolk ancestor born in 1739 had her last child in 1787, aged 48.
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oh, good grief, my heart goes out to her! Of course another explanation is they were hiding a pregnancy of an elder daughter.
I chose the 1741 birth, so I think I'll track the 1747 and see what I think happened to her.
At this rate I'll be sorting out the whole village- I would if I knew how
Avril
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Another thing, if she was born in 1747 she would have been a minor when she married in 1766. Does the marriage register say if she was of full age or a minor? Not conclusive, as she could have lied and said she was over 21.
A bit later in time, but my great grandmother (1852-1945) had 15 children, the last in 1899 when she was 47. They all survived childhood and Uncle Bert, the youngest, lived until 1990.
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You do wonder if you have the right baptism if the woman is still having children in her mid to late 40s, but it was not impossible to have had older mothers back then like now.
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Enumerated
no mention of being a minor or not. I have just been reading about Parracombe marriages one vicar Reverend J Fosse, refused to marry anybody for several years, because an hour after he married one couple, the went back to him and asked to be 'unmarried'.
Even though he remained in the parish for several years afterwards, other vicars did the deed. Unfortunately, the book is not specific in the dates, only that the vicar served there mid 1800s
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My neighbour had a baby when she was in her 50s
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The oldest authenticated natural pregnancy in the British Isles: Dawn Brooke age 59.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_Brooke?wprov=sfti1
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One of my husband's ancestors had 14 children in the early/mid 1800s --the first when she was 20, then at fairly regular intervals but the last 5 (including a set of triplets) were born when she was between the ages of 41 and 45
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Do you have siblings for the Agnes born 1741 Martinhoe?
I see on the 1766 Marriage a witness was Anthony Geen.
(FreeREG)
A Berry Anthony Geen married Elizabeth Hoyls 17 Jun 1759 Martinhoe
(Anc)
So could Berry Anthony be a sibling of Agnes?
Trish :)
PS my Mother was 46 when I was born.
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I cant see a Marriage for Richard Geen to a Agnes but did notice this on F/S.Org
AGNES Berry christened 20 July 1712 Martinhoe to ANTHONY/AGNES
Several siblings christ. 1707-1722
(I checked 1700-1731)
Possible Marriage on FreeREG;
13 Feb 1705/06, Holy Trinity, Challacombe
Anthony BOWRY to Agnis GUB
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oh my God, I feel for her
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Not sure who you feel for ???
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I've just run a query on my tree. Out of 388 females who had children, eight were over 45 at the birth of their last child; four were 46, two 47, and one each at 48 and 49.
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I've just run a query on my tree. Out of 388 females who had children, eight were over 45 at the birth of their last child; four were 46, two 47, and one each at 48 and 49.
And who says that romance is dead ...
Regards
Chas
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And who says that romance is dead ...
;D
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Both my grandmothers had children born in 1949 though my paternal grandmother was born 1902 and my maternal granny in 1903.
So I have 2 Uncles who are 2 years younger than me, both still alive and well.
One grandfather was born 1901 so he was 48 but the other was born in 1884 so would have been 65.
Of course, there have been sniggers and rumours of a mystery boyfriend - but only DNA testing will find that out.
cheers, Ian
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It might follow that a delayed puberty can mean a longer fertile period. It is thought that most Victorian girls did not menstruate until 16, on the average.
Plenty of women had babies at 46, just found one today. As long as she was fertile and healthy, no problem, but today I think any woman over 38 is considered a geriatric mother. Who decided that?
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It might follow that a delayed puberty can mean a longer fertile period. It is thought that most Victorian girls did not menstruate until 16, on the average.
Plenty of women had babies at 46, just found one today. As long as she was fertile and healthy, no problem, but today I think any woman over 38 is considered a geriatric mother. Who decided that?
Shows that much of the time, the theories that the last child was an illegitimate grandchild, are just that, theories.
I just worked out a female ancestor born 1762 had her last child in 1809.
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There is also the myth of very young women, 15 or 16, having babies. It happened but not that often. I hear people who have not done any genealogical research say, and of course lots of women had babies at 16.
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There is also the myth of very young women, 15 or 16, having babies. It happened but not that often. I hear people who have not done any genealogical research say, and of course lots of women had babies at 16.
Although when my ancestor was born in 1835, her mother would have been 51 at the time. The baby had a middle name of a much older sister born 1813 who went on to have more baseborn children. Distant cousins who are doing this line think she was an illegitimate grandchild. Again, just theories, as the mother could have had a bout of fertility before the change, and had a final child at 51. The previous one was born 8 years earlier.
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Just reposting in case you missed this avrilw.
I can see you have been on line.
I cant see a Marriage for Richard Geen to a Agnes but did notice this on F/S.Org
AGNES Berry christened 20 July 1712 Martinhoe to ANTHONY/AGNES
Several siblings christ. 1707-1722
(I checked 1700-1731)
Possible Marriage on FreeREG;
13 Feb 1705/06, Holy Trinity, Challacombe
Anthony BOWRY to Agnis GUB
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I have a DNA match to a man who discovered at 82 years of age as a result of his test, that his parents (as he thought and had been led to believe) were actually his grandparents, and his sister, 15 years his senior, was actually his mother. His father, a distant relative of mine, married a different woman shortly after the birth and died a few years later.
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Diana Canada
every time my daughter went to her doctor, he would ask if she'd gone to tell him she was pregnant and then said don't come crying to me when you've left it too late.
She was about 29. I was 26 when I had her and was considered a bit past my orime.
Ian Nelson
some of my family are shall we say 'smudged generations', nothing new there and why the sniggers? Jealousy probably
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Diana Canada
every time my daughter went to her doctor, he would ask if she'd gone to tell him she was pregnant and then said don't come crying to me when you've left it too late.
She was about 29. I was 26 when I had her and was considered a bit past my orime.
Ian Nelson
some of my family are shall we say 'smudged generations', nothing new there and why the sniggers? Jealousy probably
I think perhaps your daughter should have switched doctors!
Certainly there is a “prime” for fertility and childbearing from a scientific point of view, but in reality women can bear children for about thirty years.
I had mine at 27, 29, and 32. Sailed through the process with hardly a hiccup.
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This is a really interesting discussion, because I grew up in a family of 'older' mothers, and it is completely the norm for me. I find it mind-boggling when people claim women in their 20s are "running out of time."
I am my mother's first child and I was born when she was 37, going on 38! They called her a 'geriatric primigravida', yet she conceived within a month of trying and had absolutely no problems during the pregnancy.
My mother (the third child) was born when her mother was 37 - my grandmother only wanted two but then my mother came along unexpectedly! - and my father was born when his mother was 36.
My paternal grandmother was born when her mother was 44 and my paternal grandfather was born to a 43-year-old mother. My paternal grandfather wasn't even the youngest child as 3 years later his younger sister was born; my great-grandmother would have been 46 or 47!
My great-great-grandfather has a half-sister, from his mother's second marriage, who is 23 years his junior! His mother would have been around 45 when his half-sister was born.
In fact, it is very unusual in my family to have children under 30; my mother, my aunt and both of my grandmothers were over 30 when they had their first.
Queenie :)
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My grandmother was 38 when she had my father, he was an after thought, apparently, as they used to refer to a "surprise".
Just working on a family in my tree - my relative had his first child at 25 and his last at 62. From electoral registers it looks like he was living with his second wife before the first one died, and two children were registered with his surname before they married. Second wife was 30 years younger.
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Just working on a family in my tree - my relative had his first child at 25 and his last at 62. From electoral registers it looks like he was living with his second wife before the first one died, and two children were registered with his surname before they married. Second wife was 30 years younger.
I feel there could be a whole nother thread on how old a father could be - my ancestor (DNA confirmed) was 74 when he had his first child!
Queenie :)