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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Sophie_Glen on Sunday 06 November 22 22:26 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I have reached a brick wall for about 5 months researching my ancestor, Eliza Kelly (nee Maloney). Any help would be much appreciated!
Her date of birth seems to be c.1840-1845, born in Galloway Ireland. The first time I can find her on records is the 1871 England census, where she appears as the wife of Thomas Kelly in Blyth, Northumberland.
I don't hold out much hope of a birth record, but I would love to locate a marriage record for her and Thomas. From the 1911 census they are recorded as being married 49 years, which would mean they married around c.1862-1864.
I have found one record that records an Eliza Maloney marrying a Kelly in Houghton-le-Spring in January 1863, but that is for a Mark Kelly who is born in 1829. Thomas was born c.1845.
Both Eliza Maloney and Thomas Kelly are Catholic if useful.
Sophie
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First child Matthew born circa 1864 Durham from 1871 census
There is a Elizabeth Maloney 3rd quarter 1865 Teesdale Durham
The others on the page Elizabeth Clement and George Hall- so there is a missing name of a groom
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"Both Eliza Maloney and Thomas Kelly are Catholic if useful."
How do you know this?
Do you have baptism records for the children?
Where is this family for the 1881 England census?
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FreeBMD has two grooms with one of them recorded with two different first names
Marriages December 1/4 1865
Clement Elizabeth Teesdale 10a 376
Hall George Teesdale 10a 376
Maloney Elizabeth Teesdale 10a 376
Winn Daniel Teesdale 10a 376
Winn David Teesdale 10a 376
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Do you have births of the older children showing mother as Maloney?
I see Sarah Bridget, 1867, Tynemouth and Eliza in 1869 and then later children.
I can’t, at the moment, see Matthew, Charles or Henry.
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Morning,
I have found a mixture of census, GRO, and baptismal records for 10 children. I can't find the older children on GRO, but I have found a baptismal record for John Henry born in 1868 which lists Thomas Kelly and Eliza Maloney as his parents.
The children are:
Matthew born 1864
Charles born c1866
John Henry born 1868. I have found his
Sarah born c.1868
Elizabeth born c.1869
William born c.1871
John born c.1873
Thomas born 1874
Margaret Ann born 1876
Stephen born 1879
Heywood: I suppose the adults may have converted after marriage, but for the records I have located, all children are bapitsed as Catholics.
The family move to Mount, Usworth on the 1881 census.
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If I have the correct Thomas in all census he was born Ponteland, Northumberland.
KELLY, THOMAS mmn STYANS
GRO Reference: 1845 J Quarter in CASTLE WARD UNION Volume 25 Page 252
Brother John
KELLY, JOHN mmn STAINES
GRO Reference: 1843 S Quarter in DURHAM AND LANCHESTER Volume 24
1851 census
Piece: 2394
Folio: 411
Page Number: 36
Household Members:
Name Age
Mathew Kelly 45 Manchester
Sarah Kelly 45 Cox Heath, Kent.
John Kelly 8 Durham
Thomas Kelly 6 Ponteland
Trying to find in 1861 to see if still single.
John
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Hi John, I believe that is the correct Thomas, as later census' mark him as being born in Ponteland. I've ordered both his and John's birth certificates, but not sure if that will help much.
I'm struggling on the 1861 census to locate him as well. They are an elusive couple!
Thanks everyone for your help so far.
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"all children are bapitsed as Catholics."
For each baptism record that you have located can you list all the information....everything please.
Catholic baptisms are a useful source of information because they name godparents....who are often family members.
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Of course wivenhoe.
The writing is not very legible in the records but to the best of my ability I have found baptism records for the following children. They were baptised at Our Lady & St Wilfred Roman Catholic Church, Blyth:
John Henry: born 13 March 1868 and baptised 30th April 1868. Godparents: John Maloney and Brigitta (Bridget?) Maloney
Eliza: born 27 February 1869 and baptised 10th April 1869. Godparents John Flood and Margarita (Mary) Holmes (sp).
William: born 27 December 1870 and baptised 5 February 1871. Godparents Jacob Hardy and Catherine M'Namara (sp)
John Kelly: born 20th August 1872 and bapisted 29 September 1872. Godparents James (sp) Kenney and Catherin Kenney
Thomas: born 11th November 1874 and baptised 13 December 1874. Godparents Patrick Melie/Meliu and Bridget M'namara.
Margaret Ann: born 20th June 1876 and baptised 1 July 1876. Writing difficult but godparents Edward Melie/Meliu (sp) and Anna M'Pherson.
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Transcript info from FindMyPast
Thomas Kellly(3 L's) baptised 15th June 1845 Newcastle upon Tyne, father Mathew, mother Sarah Stains
John
added, possible 1861 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7Z9-JZX
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John Henry: born 13 March 1868 and baptised 30th April 1868. Godparents: John Maloney and Brigitta (Bridget?) Maloney
Possibly the following
Marriages Dec 1863
Hogan Bridget Houghton 10a 504
Maloney John Houghton 10a 504
Reynolds Marcella Houghton 10a 504
Wynn William Houghton 10a 504
Wynne William Houghton 10a 504
1871
RG10 /5011 /46 p 30
John Maloney 29
Bridget Maloney 27
Margaret A Maloney 5
Michael Maloney 2
Daniel Maloney 6/12
MALONEY, DANIEL HOGAN
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 534
John
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The children are:
Matthew born 1864
Charles born c1866
John Henry born 1868. I have found his
Sarah born c.1868
Elizabeth born c.1869
William born c.1871
John born c.1873
Thomas born 1874
Margaret Ann born 1876
Stephen born 1879
John Henry: born 13 March 1868 and baptised 30th April 1868. Godparents: John Maloney and Brigitta (Bridget?) Maloney
This can't be 'Henry'. In 1871 Henry and Charles are both aged 5, in 1881 they are both aged 15.
Debra :)
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John Maloney gives his place of birth as County Clare in 1871 5011/46/30 and 1881 32/5/3 (if I have the right one - he is in London in 1881.)
You have Elizabeth/Eliza born in Galway.
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Hi Debra, I noticed that issue also.
The John Henry baptismal record lists Thomas Kelly and Eliza Maloney as his parents. But if his brother Charles was born on the same day/year, there should have been a record for his baptism as well...
I've not found GRO or Baptismal records for Matthew or Charles, so perhaps they may have been informally adopted?
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Possible birth registrations?
KELLY, SARAH BRIDGET MALONEY
GRO Reference: 1867 D Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 204
KELLY, ELIZA MALONEY
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 220
10B
KELLY, THOMAS MALONE
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 223
KELLEY, MARGARET MOLONE
GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in TYNEMOUTH Volume 10B Page 252
John
added
KELLY, STEPHEN MALONEY
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in CHESTER LE STREET Volume 10A Page 509
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There is a death for Thomas Kelly, 1 yr in 1873 Tyneside.
There is a birth 1874 for Thomas Kelly with mother Maloney, Tyneside.
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Possible death for Matthew 1872 ?
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Hi Debra, I noticed that issue also.
The John Henry baptismal record lists Thomas Kelly and Eliza Maloney as his parents. But if his brother Charles was born on the same day/year, there should have been a record for his baptism as well...
I've not found GRO or Baptismal records for Matthew or Charles, so perhaps they may have been informally adopted?
A published tree shows this baptism record (transcription) for Charles
Carolus Kelly
Birth Date 28 Mar 1866
Baptism Date 13 May 1880
Our Blessed Lady Immaculate, Washington, Durham
Father Thoma Kelly
Mother Elisabeth Meloney
The children you mention were baptised close to birth so this seems odd.
Maybe baptised before confirmation?
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I looked up Charles b June quarter, 1866 Castle Ward which is the right one for a birth in Newburn, Northumberland.
Free BMD shows Charles Hills.
GRO - couldn’t find so just looked for Hills.
Charley Hills mmn Minns plus…
Henry Hills mmn Minns
I can’t see a Hills/Minns marriage
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This is very interesting, following that line I've been able to find transcribed baptism records for Sarah which also show a late baptism on the same day in May 1880. I wonder why this might have been!
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Baptism Date 13 May 1880
Our Blessed Lady Immaculate, Washington, Durham
Who else is baptised, same day, same church?
Possibly a cousin?
Who was married same church, same day....might be why the older children were baptised.......other family business.
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This is very interesting, following that line I've been able to find transcribed baptism records for Sarah which also show a late baptism on the same day in May 1880. I wonder why this might have been!
Was the Sarah who was baptised on that day definitely the correct Sarah and sister of the Charles who was baptised on the same day? Sarah and Charles would have been the right age for confirmation in 1880. Are
Confirmation or First Communion registers available? Charles and Sarah may have received conditional baptism if their parent or guardian wasn't around/couldn't be contacted to verify that the children were already baptised. Other older children in the parish may have been baptised around the same time in preparation for the sacraments of First Communion or Confirmation.
Were parents of Charles and Sarah alive in 1880? Were the family still together on 1881 census? How far away was the church where Charles and Sarah were baptised in 1880 to the place they were born?
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Her date of birth seems to be c.1840-1845, born in Galloway Ireland.
You meant Galway. Which source gave that information about her birthplace?
Galloway is in Scotland. A region, a Catholic and a Scottish Episcopal diocese and home of Belted Galloway cattle.
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Does anyone think that Charles and Henry could be the two boys registered in Castle Ward as I wrote earlier?
June 1866 Castle Ward 10 pg 249.
Charles Hills
Henry Hills
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Maiden Stone
Here is a link to 1881 for the family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-67HY
Also 1871 5132 /60/22
Elizabeth Kelly 28 yrs b Galway, Ireland
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Does anyone think that Charles and Henry could be the two boys registered in Castle Ward as I wrote earlier?
June 1866 Castle Ward 10 pg 249.
Charles Hills
Henry Hills
Hi heywood, it would be more than coincidental if this was not the 2 boys born in 1866. It does lead though to more issues, as you and I have found.
If we do have the right Thomas Kelly born in 1845 Ponteland he would have been aged 26 in 1871 census which he was. His first child seemingly with Eliz Maloney would appear to be Sarah Bridget in 1867. The 3 earlier recorded children in 1871 Matthew, Charles and Henry I suspect are not his, but took them on as step-children who took his surname. My thinking is that Eliza possibly had a relationship with a Mr ?? and those 3 children are hers from that relationship.
One of the birth certificates either Charles/Henry might reveal some interesting details.
John
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Does anyone think that Charles and Henry could be the two boys registered in Castle Ward as I wrote earlier?
June 1866 Castle Ward 10 pg 249.
Charles Hills
Henry Hills
I do. Charles birth cert would most likely settle it because his baptism gives a date of birth.
The 3 earlier recorded children in 1871 Matthew, Charles and Henry I suspect are not his, but took them on as step-children who took his surname. My thinking is that Eliza possibly had a relationship with a Mr ?? and those 3 children are hers from that relationship.
But where does the HILLS/MINNS come into it if they are Eliza's children?
Debra :)
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Dundee
"But where does the HILLS/MINNS come into it if they are Eliza's children?"
In short "not a clue"
John
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I can't thank you all enough, this has opened up so many new potential leads and ideas!
Eliza Maloney's age relative to Thomas Kelly's moves a lot over the years, and I believe she may have been older than him when they married. So the potential that she was married prior and had issue holds some weight.
The GRO must be very happy today, as I have just ordered a number of birth certificates (including those for Charles and Henry Hills). I will update here with results when they arrive.
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I for one really look forward to hearing the outcome details of those certificate,fingers crossed.
John
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I for one really look forward to hearing the outcome details of those certificate,fingers crossed.
John
Me too :)
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added, possible 1861 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7Z9-JZX
John
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Good evening,
I have the GRO records!
Charley and Henry Minns
These are two twins born on the 28th March 1866 in Winning, Newburn, Northumberland, England. They are the sons of Thomas Hills and Eliza (foremerly Minns).
They are most likely not related to my family line, but part of my does wonder if there was an issue with surnames. Thomas Hills may be Thomas Kelly, and Eliza Minns may be Eliza Maloney. Perhaps a reach too far... I've not been able to locate either boy on later census, nor death records. And there is similarly nothing for a marriage Hills/Minns marriage record.
Sarah Bridget Kelly
This looks to be correct, Sarah Bridget is the daughter of Thomas Kelly and Eliza Maloney. Born in October 1867, Newsham, Blyth.
Matthew/Mark Kelly
I also did some digging for the eldest boy, Matthew, listed as a son of Thomas and Eliza. According to the 1871 census and his death record, he was born in Thornley in 1864. Interestingly, i found no record for a Matthew Kelly - but two GRO records for a Mark Kelly born in Thornley in 1864.
One Mark was born on the 24th September 1864 to a Matthew Kelly and Eliza Maloney (birth registered 29th September 1864). The second Mark was born on the 26th September 1864 to a Mark Kelly and Eliza Maloney (birth registered 2nd November 1864).... Not sure what this means, a clerical error?
I have a marriage certificate from 1863 for a Matthew Kelly and Eliza Maloney in Co. Durham. Mark is listed as being 16 years old than Eliza, so this definitely isn't a case of Thomas using a different/middle name.
Be interesting to hear all your thoughts on these new clues! I'm happy to post the birth records if of use/interest.
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Looking at all the certificates:
Are there addresses?
Is there an occupation for Thomas Hills?
Occupation for Thomas Kelly /Matthew Kelly ?
*these will likely be miners though.
Are there fathers’ names and occupations on the marriage certificate?
Who are the witnesses to the marriage?
Are there similarities on the two birth certificates for Mark Kelly?
*just a reminder that full certificates shouldn’t be posted. If necessary just snippets but that may not be necessary.