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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: chris_49 on Saturday 05 November 22 13:30 GMT (UK)
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I may have solved this one but I'd like Rootschatters feedback, there are so many variables. Bear with me please - I give full info so people don't do unneeded searches.
My relative George Thomas Cox was registered in Warwick district in the first quarter of 1889 and baptised 3rd February at St Mary's Warwick. His mother Mary Lewthwaite was from Middlesex, his parents married in Woolwich where his elder sister was born, his father Thomas died in 1890, his mother remarried to James Mackonachie (spelling varies) in 1892 in Greenwich, and in 1901 he is with them in Greenwich as a Mackonachie, though on Ancestry someone has helpfully added a correction that he is a Cox. In 1911 he is in the Army in India (Rifle Brigade) born Salford Warwickshire which might mean Salford Priors but which I think is a mistake for the Saltisford area of Warwick town (His brother Thomas Albert gave his address as Saltford, Warwick when joining up later).
Thomas Albert didn't survive the war, but I know George did because I found an "attestation" for him from the Rifle Brigade dated 1919 which, stupidly, I didn't save and now can't find. And that was the last of I saw of him - no death except in Thanet 1934 which would be a year out in age - except that I saw a George T Cox in Wandsworth on the 1939 married with an Elizabeth E born 1899 and a Daphne G b 1919 presumably a daughter - and this George's biirth date of 7/1/1899 was very close to my George's baptism. However I could find no marriage of a George T to an Elizabeth E in the time period, neither could I find a birth record for Daphne G Cox, so I put the matter aside.
Then I got access to the 1921 census at FindMyPast. I know that requests for this are prohibited, but surely I'm allowed to give a brief outline of what I found? George Thomas Cox 32 and Elizabeth Ellen 22 are boarding in Southend. He's born Salford Warwick, which makes me confident he is my George. He has the same profession as one of those he gave in 1939.
But who is Elizabeth Ellen born Bardfield, Essex? FreeBMD (searching without surname) finds plenty of those born in Essex around 1899, but none found in Braintree district where Great Bardfield is. I next tried Daphne G, missing in 1921, and the best birth record I could find was Daphne Georgina Gilbey, illegitimate, registered Dunmow district in the right quarter.
I trawled for Elizabeth on censuses and found that she may well be Elizabeth Ellen Gilbey born and living in Little Sampford, Essex, a daughter of Charles Gilbey - and this fits a birth record in July quarter 1899 in Saffron Walden district which is where Little Sampford was - and also fits the birth date she gave in 1939 as a Cox. Moreover, by 1921 Charles and family, though given as living in Great Bardfield, were in fact at an address in Little Bardfield, which was in Dunmow district.
So I think this is my George and his never-married partner. Do you agree?
There's a further problem with Daphne Georgina Gilbey, later Cox. I can't find her in 1921 - she's not with either grandmother - and I'm not allowed to ask you to look for her. (Daphne Georgine Rice in Colchester and Daphne Coe in Dunmow are not her.) The 1939 gives her future married names Pound and Moore,but I can find no marriage for her to a Pound as either a Gilbey or a Cox, though I found her 1973 marriage to a Moore as Pound.
More seriously, is she George's daughter? She was born 10/7/1919 exactly 9 months after the Armistice, but I think I've read that it took a long time to get all the soldiers home, and "regulars" like George would not be demobbed. Although he could have been on leave at the right time. He could have just taken up with a young woman with a baby - but why was she given the unusual middle name Georgina?
If anyone's had the patience to read through all of the above, I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks, Chris
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To start this off:
Daphne G Cox married Norman J Pound in 1941 in Lambeth, London.
Queenie :)
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I found Daphne's baptism record:
First name(s): Daphne Georgina
Last name: Cox
Baptism date: 14 Sep 1919
Place: Elsworth, Cambridgeshire
Father's first name(s): George Thomas
Father occupation: motor mechanic
Mother's first name(s): Elizabeth Ellen
I think the father had to be present at the baptism (if I recall correctly) so it looks like he is the father.
Queenie :)
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Wow, that's brilliant! Thanks a lot Queenie. Proves she was my George's daughter - registered correctly as Gilbey, baptised as Cox - who was to know any different? Is this why the (late-ish) baptism was some way from Bardfield.
Father's occupation tallies too. Thanks again.
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Glad I could help :)
I'm just wondering whether George was already married when he started his relationship with Elizabeth and that's why they were unable to wed. I've seen it a few times in my family.
What was the occupation of Thomas, George's father? I'm just looking through marriages to see if I can find any possibles.
Queenie :)
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He might have done. Single in 1911, he'd have been a soldier that whole time but would have had leaves, of course - but none of the marriages look suitable - none near Greenwich whether his mother lived. Or he coulld have married abroad.
His father Thomas was an Ag Lab when he was at home aged 18 in Saltisford, the only census that finds him as an adult, but I have that in 1890 Thomas "died in an accident on the railways". I don't know where that info came from, and of course that doesn't mean he was a railwayman. If a father is deceased at a wedding, you often don't get his occupation anyway. Elizabeth's dad was a farm carter.
I missed that Pound wedding because she was given as "Daophne".
I don't know whether the Cox-Gilbey birth in 1927 in Luton is their daughter too - they do seem to have moved about, and no other marriage fits. She was not found dead or with them in 1939, or at all that year - probably redacted.
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It would seem that your George Thomas Cox was indeed in the Rifle Brigade but am puzzled about this "attestation" you have seen that was dated 1919.
Bit of a long road round but the Pension index card for his brother Thomas Albert shows that his mother had another son who was still serving when Thomas was killed. He was no 2653 Sgt G T Cox of the Rifle Brigade.
As you seem to have access to FindMyPast, then there are two records in the Military records for this man, one dated 1906 and one dated 1908. The later one is a pension application as he was discharged in July 1916 as being no longer physically fit for war service. The pages are in no particular order and would need a fair bit of sorting through the info but they do confirm his n.o.k. as being the people you have mentioned.
Boo
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I was just going to mention the military record for George, but Tickettyboo got there first!
He was discharged in 1916, with his next of kin being Mary, his mother, his brother Thomas and his sister Elsie.
This could be completely wrong, but there is a marriage that interests me:
George Thomas Cox, born c.1889, son of Thomas Cox, soldier, married Minnie Mitchell in Romford, Essex in October 1916.
The reason it interests me is that they had a child, Samuel George Thomas Cox, born in late 1917, but baptised in late 1918. The child died soon after it was baptised. After that, the trail goes cold.
Maybe I am completely wrong, but I thought I would put this forward as a possible candidate.
Queenie :)
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Thanks again Queenie and Boo. Always useful to find the military records.
I can't find this attestation again either. It may not have been in 1919.
The Romford one looks interesting. In 1911 sister Elsie Bayfield was in Blackheath with her family and her twice-widowed mother, but by 1921 they were all in Romford so this is a definite possibility for a marriage for George. I'd need to send for the certificate to be certain though - which I might since there are none worthwhile to send for, for George and Elizabeth.
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The only thing that doesn't match is the fact that George's father is described as 'soldier.' However, since Thomas died when George was so young, he may have not known his father's occupation.
Interesting to note the Romford connection.
Queenie :)
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Oh, does this mean you've found the church marriage record? Is his father Thomas, deceased? Maybe George just made an assumption, or gave his own occupation.
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Oh, does this mean you've found the church marriage record? Is his father Thomas, deceased? Maybe George just made an assumption, or gave his own occupation.
Only a transcription of FindMyPast, I'm afraid. No other information is given.
I feel what you really need to confirm this is the correct George is a transcription of the witnesses. However, I cannot find this online, so you may need to order a certificate.
Perhaps someone else may know of another resource for Essex?
Queenie :)
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Groom was 27, bachelor , electrical engineer, father Thomas , soldier, dec'd
Bride was 26, spinster, father John , stableman
witnesses Charles Alfred Hines, Rosina Elizabeth Hines
Boo
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Yes, but the witnesses may be people I've never heard of. Bit of a gamble sending for the cert.
I can't find Minnie as a Mitchell in 1911 or a Cox in 1921 in Essex even giving her a wide birth range. Nor can I find her with father John. She could be anywhere of course.
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Hi.
In Ancestry there is an Old Bailey case for
George Thomas Cox soldier aged 26 August 1915 ... obtaining money by false pretences from Alfred Dye. Found not guilty and discharged.
I haven't got a sub for find my last but the case is featured in the newspapers on there.
Is it him??
Tazzie
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Groom was 27, bachelor , electrical engineer, father Thomas , soldier, dec'd
Bride was 26, spinster, father John , stableman
witnesses Charles Alfred Hines, Rosina Elizabeth Hines
Boo
Great find, Boo. Where did you get this information? I couldn't find it.
Queenie :)
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Crossed.
Thanks Boo. No, I don't know the witnesses. Crucially, the age for George is right, but electrical engineer is a bit of a stretch from motor mechanic (twice).
Now I have Minnie's age I can have a better look for her.
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Hi.
In Ancestry there is an Old Bailey case for
George Thomas Cox soldier aged 26 August 1915 ... obtaining money by false pretences from Alfred Dye. Found not guilty and discharged.
I haven't got a sub for find my last but the case is featured in the newspapers on there.
Is it him??
Tazzie
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Hi.
In Ancestry there is an Old Bailey case for
George Thomas Cox soldier aged 26 August 1915 ... obtaining money by false pretences from Alfred Dye. Found not guilty and discharged.
I haven't got a sub for find my last but the case is featured in the newspapers on there.
Is it him??
Tazzie
Added..... Seems this one disappeared on his wedding day! .......and he was in the rifle brigade.
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Thanks Queenie :)
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Interestingly, he was found not guilty by the verdict of the jury. The question still remains, why would he not go on to marry again? He never actually married Miss Dye. Could he still be the George who married Minnie?
Queenie :)
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Curiouser and curiouser. Of course there are other men born George Thomas Cox, but far away except the Pancras one who seeems a little young.
Was he a sergeant? I can't find it. I thought 2nd Rifles rather than 5th but he could have been moved.
If he deserted Miss Dye, he may have had no scruples about leaving Minnie, who I still can't find in censuses despite knowing her age.
Another bad lad like his cousin James Alfred Levey who has a thread to himself?
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Groom was 27, bachelor , electrical engineer, father Thomas , soldier, dec'd
Bride was 26, spinster, father John , stableman
witnesses Charles Alfred Hines, Rosina Elizabeth Hines
Boo
Great find, Boo. Where did you get this information? I couldn't find it.
Queenie :)
https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk
Boo
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Was he a sergeant? I can't find it. I thought 2nd Rifles rather than 5th but he could have been moved.
He was indeed in the 5th Rifle Brigade, at least he was at the time of his 1906 attestation.
Queenie :)
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Curiouser and curiouser. Of course there are other men born George Thomas Cox, but far away except the Pancras one who seeems a little young.
Was he a sergeant? I can't find it. I thought 2nd Rifles rather than 5th but he could have been moved.
If he deserted Miss Dye, he may have had no scruples about leaving Minnie, who I still can't find in censuses despite knowing her age.
Another bad lad like his cousin James Alfred Levey who has a thread to himself?
Both your George Thomas and the one in court were Sergeants
There are reports in various newspapers about this case. The report on the Leicester Daily Post 27 Aug 1915 was made after the case closed.
I'd say he was extremely likely to be the same man as you are looking for.
the defendant had remarked he had not been the same man since his brother was killed at Neuve Chapelle. He has served a considerable time in India and he had been in France. From there he was sent back to England suffering from frost bite and was made musketry instructor.
Boo
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Yes I think the brother killed in France and the long service in India are clinchers. Soldiers were expected to fight on after a brother died. He was not so far from Romford to marry there next year, and "electricakl engineer" may be just an exaggeration.
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I'll wrap this up with thanks again to Queenie and Boo. My first venture into Essex after 20+ years at this game, all good experience.
If George was the one who married Minnie Mitchell, and attended his son's baptism, this was also around the time that he was getting Elizabeth Gilbey pregnant!
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There is a rather sketchy tree on Ancestry which includes:
Minnie Mitchell born in Belfast, Antrim, 1890 daughter of John
married to George Cox - no further details of George or the marriage.
then having two children with a James Arthur Read (born London 1880 died 1941):
James Read - no dates
Irene Read born 1926 died 2009.
There doesn't seem to be a marriage.
Minnie died in 1932 in Edmonton - registered as Minnie Cox aged 42.
(There is no requirement for either parent to be present at a baptism.)
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Thanks, Galium. I'll treat this with my usual skepticism about Ancestry trees, and since Minnie isn't my relative anyway I'll take it no further.
Barbara Florence Cox born 1927 Luton MMN Gilbey seems to have died 2017 unmarried, also in Luton - so she's probably not George and Elizabeth's daughter - though whose marriage she's from, I cannot tell.
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Tidying up - George Thomas Cox seems to have died 1953, but Elizabeth Ellen Cox b 1899 died 1992 with the same birth date as given on the 1939 register. Daphne Georgina Moore 1919 was even more long lived, dying in 2015.
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Thanks, Galium. I'll treat this with my usual skepticism about Ancestry trees...
Agree that it is wise not to take online family trees at face value, but in the case of the one I mentioned, the tree owner is a grandchild of Minnie Mitchell.
I am guessing, from the lack of dates given for George Cox, and the more precise information about where Minnie was born and died, that they are working from their own oral family history, and might possibly know more about the story of Minnie's marriage, since they are aware that she did marry, and of the name of her husband. (They have been logged in recently).
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Hi, I am the granddaughter of Minnie Mitchell who was married to George Thomas Cox in Romford on 16th October, 1916. Minnie died when my Mum Irene Read was 6 years old. Minnie was living with my Grandad James Read at 12 Gilpin Grove, Edmonton.she died in 1932 of tuberculosis. On her death certificate it says she was the wife of George Cox, taxi cab driver. I would love to find out more about my grandmother. My mother was too ashamed to tell me she was illegitimate and so I had been searching for a Minnie Cox (maiden name) which didn't help matters. Any info greatly appreciated. My ultimate goal would be to find a photo of Minnie. I live in hope. Thanks to all contributors thus far. Interesting info re George Cox
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Welcome to Rootschat LinndiLoo. I'm sorry I've only just seen your post, I must have missed the usual update email from Rootschat.
I'm sorry I have no more information on Minnie. I'm glad you found George Thomas Cox interesting but I gather he is not yor ancestor. Chris
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Hi Chris, no Minnie is a real mystery, but I am fairly certain she was married to this George Cox for a while and then ended up with James Read, my grandfather. I never knew either of them as they died while my mum was still a child. Will keep trying, though. Thanks for msg.
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Hi, I am the granddaughter of Minnie Mitchell who was married to George Thomas Cox in Romford on 16th October, 1916. Minnie died when my Mum Irene Read was 6 years old. Minnie was living with my Grandad James Read at 12 Gilpin Grove, Edmonton.she died in 1932 of tuberculosis. On her death certificate it says she was the wife of George Cox, taxi cab driver. I would love to find out more about my grandmother. My mother was too ashamed to tell me she was illegitimate and so I had been searching for a Minnie Cox (maiden name) which didn't help matters. Any info greatly appreciated. My ultimate goal would be to find a photo of Minnie. I live in hope. Thanks to all contributors thus far. Interesting info re George Cox
An 1890 Belfast birth for consideration:
Wilhelmina (indexed incorrectly as Withelmina) Isabella Mitchell daughter of a James John Mitchell
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/c51d0610381144
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Thank you for this.
Lynn