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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: boscoe on Tuesday 01 November 22 23:28 GMT (UK)
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In English names, sometimes their is a "de" preceding it. This seems to occur more the earlier in time. Not many modern English use it. But go back a thousand years and it seems easy to come across, especially among landowners. That leads me to the conclusion that these individuals have some or all Norman blood. Am I right, here? We're their many English "de"s in 1065?
I ask this because I have come across a possible relative in 1405 with "de" preceding his name.
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It means "of". It was used in names to identify some people before they had surnames. A man named Adam de Bolton for example would be a man named Adam who was born in or came from a place called Bolton. The man you found a record for in 1405 may have belonged to the place which comes after "de" in the document or perhaps his parent or grandparent came from that place.
French was the language used by the Norman rulers of England for generations after the Conquest.
French also turns up in placenames. There are several places called Bolton in Lancashire, full names of 2 are Bolton-le-Moors and Bolton-le-Sands.
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I am slightly puzzled as to why this query is posted under "Isle of Man"?
Moderator comment: now moved to the Common Room
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I have no idea about the Isle. I wrote in "General" after hitting it.
I just see in early names using de a French-looking name afterward. Mine is not after any place name, so I was wondering if it was of Norman origin. Thanks.
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The use of 'de' in a name does not necessarily mean that the person was of Norman origin.
Given that the language used in official documents for centuries after the conquest was either Latin or Norman French, it is not that unusual to see the use of 'de' before any apparent name in the 15th century. That was how the clerks wrote it in Anglo-Norman French.
Sometimes the 'de' becomes incorporated into the eventual surname, for example Dawtrey/Dawtre or Hawtrey started out as de Haute Rive (Latin - d'Alta Ripa). Over time the original pronunciation changed and so did the way in which the clerks wrote the name.
I would also make the suggestion that often the word or words after the 'de' may not be a specific place-name but a description of a type of place. To use the example above again, this means a high bank. In medieval inquisitions post mortem, the name (de) Beauchamp is often found as (de) 'Bello Campo' - both mean beautiful field or similar.
Hope that helps.
Nell
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I have Depledge ancestors. They are from Yorkshire as far as I have traced them back (mid 1600s). There are on line trees with the same line going back to mid 1550s in or near Barnsley, but I haven't fully verified that. Haven't come across a place called Pledge (or similar) or what the name could describe.
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Normally I would recommend the excellent books by George Redmonds, but I have just checked his Yorkshire West Riding book on surnames and found no Depledge. So I tried Reaney and Wilson A Dictionary of English surnames and can't find Depledge. Which I'm sure you knew anyway, Lizzie L, but to the original poster I would advise you to read some of George Redmonds' books, which will tell you all about the development of English surnames.
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George Redmonds does mention Depledge in his Dictionary of Yorkshire Surnames.
He traces it back to Depleach (Hall) in Cheshire, and notes a Nicholas Deepleache in Ashton under Lyne PRs in 1594. He also comments that it had arrived in Barnsley by then, with a reference to Surnames, DNA and Family History, which he co-authored with Turi King and David Hey.
In this latter book it's said that most pre-1600 references in Cheshire were in Mottram-in-Longdendale, and that Depleach Hall was near Cheadle. The early Barnsley example is dated to 1570.
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There are several places called Bolton in Lancashire, full names of 2 are Bolton-le-Moors and Bolton-le-Sands.
I'm not sure if there is anything French about the 'le' here. This affectation pops up quite often in certain parts - Newton-le-Willows and Poulton-le-Fylde in Lancs, and another crop in Durham such as Chester-le-Street and Hetton-le-Hole. There is nothing French about the main parts of these names, and the north of England was never very Normanised.
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George Redmonds does mention Depledge in his Dictionary of Yorkshire Surnames.
He traces it back to Depleach (Hall) in Cheshire, and notes a Nicholas Deepleache in Ashton under Lyne PRs in 1594. He also comments that it had arrived in Barnsley by then, with a reference to Surnames, DNA and Family History, which he co-authored with Turi King and David Hey.
In this latter book it's said that most pre-1600 references in Cheshire were in Mottram-in-Longdendale, and that Depleach Hall was near Cheadle. The early Barnsley example is dated to 1570.
That's interesting, thank you
The earliest I've found in Barnsley is a baptism in 1575 for a son of William Depledge, maybe William had earlier children or was married there. Some researchers connect them to my line but I'm not sure yet.
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Going back to the original question, The Record Interpreter by C.T. Martin gives de Bosco as a Latinised version of English surnames such as Wood or Boyce, the latter being derived from Norman French Bois, Dubois etc. So presumably de Bosco could have been used for those French names too.
(I have an old copy of The Record Interpreter in book form, but I think it's also available at the Internet Archive.)
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Thank you for all your comments about de. I am familiar with names and their D beginnings. Walt Disney the cartoonist is a good French example. I'm afraid books of names in England are not so widespread in the world.
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Thank you arthurk for the information. I don't have that book, just a bit too dear for me, unfortunately, but I borrowed it on inter-library loan for the surnames I am interested in.