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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: DonnaMarie1982 on Tuesday 18 October 22 11:43 BST (UK)
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Hello guys! Im trying to decipher what I think is a court case between these individuals to extend my personal understanding of the Clements family of Antrim.
Any help would be so much appreciated.
The first part is the title here which I cant make sense of
So far I have..
The ?Sounde ?Cusio of Francis Clements Esq ?? the Deft to the bill of ?Comptt Henry Ellis ?aninon by his ?pro??nary ffrancis Ellis Comptt?
Thank you so much,
Donna
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The Severall Answ(er) of Francis Clements Esq(uire) [one of] the Def(endan)ts to the bill of Comp(lainte) of Henry Ellis a minor by
his Prochein amy Francis Ellis Compl(ainant)
This heading shows that the plaintiff is Henry Ellis. As a minor, he has no legal entity and has to be represented by an adult, Francis Ellis, his ‘prochein amy’ (= ‘next friend’, usually an immediate relative). The defendant in the case is Francis Clements, esquire.
For a better understanding of such a court case, you need to start with the plaintiff’s Bill of Complaint, if it survives. This is the defendant’s Answer to that complaint, and therefore not the best place to start.
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Thank you so much Bookbox that is so incredibly helpful. I'm unfamiliar with these documents so knowing these terms makes a lot more sense. I appreciate your time.
Francis I believe is the father of Henry which sounds as if it would work in this instance.
There was another document in the same set but I think it might be another response paper rather than the original complaint - its come from a microfilm at PRONI and I don't think they are in any sort of order.
(Practicing) The Schedule to which the ans? ?? ?? and which the deft. Francis Clement praise may be taken as ?pte office and ?answer to the bill of complaint of Henry Ellis by his prochein amy Francis Ellis -----
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The Schedule to which the Annexed Answer Referrs and which the Def(endan)t Francis Clements prays may be
taken as p(ar)te of his Answer to the bill of Complaint of Henry Ellis by his p(ro)chein amy Francis Ellis
This is, as it says, part of Clements’ Answer. I’d expect it be a schedule of goods, or a set of accounts, or similar. Is it a probate-related case?
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Hello Bookbox, the second document does indeed seem to have a long list of items along with values.
The first document (its very long and Ive only just started working through it) refers often to the Late Edward Clements so I was thinking it would be something to do with his will and a contestation around it.
Donna
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Kicking myself now as in my inexperience I may have missed the original complaint in with the papers - Its a large collection and only my second visit to PRONI as its a ways for me to go. I feel I will have to schedule a holiday to go back and look at the earlier documents in the series. :)
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It's easy to overlook part of a case. At TNA (Kew) the pleadings (bill, answers etc.) are usually filed together, and the other parts (interrogatories, depositions, orders etc.) separately, but that may not be so at PRONI.
If you don't have the Bill and still want to do the Answer, I daresay people will help with any hard-to-read snippets. The hand is not too difficult, once you get used to the abbreviations. Is it early 1700s?
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This was from a box of family papers, so it may be that the correspondence is one sided in that it will only be replies going one way. The original documents were closed so I was working on Microfiche which I can imagine would be hard to miss things on, the white writing on black background is hard on the eyes after a few hours!! With limited time I was scanning through some hundreds of documents and getting copies of things where I saw family names appearing. It will likely still be useful as I can see further down that it mentions family relationships and I was currently trying to ascertain information about the family as there are a muddle of secondary sources commonly referred to that look as if they were written in the 1800s with some inaccurate information.
I'll keep working down the document (its good to practice so I can gain better skills in this area) and pop it up as it may well be useful for someone else. Any verification is fantastic. Thank you so much for your help and putting some context to what Im looking at.
The first document has 1725 at the bottom.
Donna
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First segment (i think my brain is struggling as much with this as it was when I studied Chaucer at A-level. The words I know but put together they are still unfamiliar)
Clements Hill / Mulligan Hill is a townland outside of Carrickfergus.
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The first two and a half lines are just the standard verbiage that introduces most Answers. The main part of the text starts at Saith (in line 3):
This Def(endan)t Saveing and Reserveing to himselfe Now and att all times hereafter all and all Manner of Advantages and benefitt of
Exceptions that may be had and taken to the manyfold Incertainties and other Insufficiences in the Compl(ainan)ts said bill of Compl(ain)t Contained for answ(er)
thereunto, or soe much thereof as Materially concerns this Def(endan)t to make answer Unto, Saith that Edw(ar)d Clements late of Clements hill
al(ia)s Milligan hill in the County of Antrim Esq(ui)r(e) dec(eas)ed in the Compl(ainan)ts bill named did die seized of a small Estate of Inheritance p(ar)te of the towne
Land of Mullingamhill in the said County of Antrim Containing about Eighty foure Acres together with about Sixteen Acres of the towne Land of
Le Ballyclare in the same County which lands were for and in Consideration of 100li [= £100] paid by the said Edw(ar)d Clements to Richard Dobbs late …
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Thank you once again, your transcription is certainly making a lot more sense than my own.
Im a little bit further along and it looks like it might be a land dispute of some sort.
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cont.
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Clements Hill / Mulligan Hill is a townland outside of Carrickfergus.
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/belfast-lower/ballynure/ballynure/clementshill/
Clementshill townland just to the east of the town of Ballyclare.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4483354#map=13/54.7559/-5.9711
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from reply #10
… of Castle Dobbs in the said County of Antrim Esq(ire) Dec(eas)ed Granted and Conveyed to him the said Edw(ard) Clements and his heirs by the
said Dobbs att the yearly rent of two pounds Ster(ling) as does app(ea)re by the said Deed beareing date the 18th day of June 1691 now in this Def(endant)s
hands and this Def(endan)t does believe that the said lands were in the lifetime of the said Edw(ar)d Clements of the yearly rent Vallue of about [deletion]
26li 10s for that the said lands were Sett Since his the said Edw(ar)d Clements death and are now Sett att the rent of 29li 5s p(er) ann(um) and Noe
More out of which the said Chiefe rent of 2li is to be deducted and this Def(endant) Saith that ye said Edw(ar)d Clements did not to his this …
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from reply #11
… Def(endan)ts knowledge hearsay or beleife dye seized of any other Estate in Fee or other Estate of Inheritance butt the aforesaid lands Exepte [the?]
acres of land called Maidens Mount in the liberties of the towne of Carrickfergus Sett att about 4 or 5li p(er) ann(um) which after the said Edwards
death were sold by Henry Clements the said Edwards Eldest Son to whom the same Came as heir to his said Father and therefore this Def(endan)t
doth deny that the said Edward Clements was Seized of a Considerable Estate in Fee as in the Compl(ainan)ts bill is all[eadged] [conjectural: and this Defendant doth]
deny that the said Edward Clements was pos(ess)ed of and Intitled unto a very great [p(er)sonal] Estate as in the said bill is alleadged butt Confesses
that the said Edw(ar)d Clements did die poss(ess)ed of the Tenem(en)t Called the Slate[?] house in the bill menc(i)oned together with about 48 Acres of land thereunto …
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the ? estate (its coming easier now and the husband has a better knack for reading the script it seems)
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Donna, I read that as "of the p[er]sonall Estate".
Bookbox, unfortunately here in Ireland many of our records were destroyed in the Four Courts fire in 1922. Frustratingly the index has often survived (e.g. listing plaintiffs and defendants in bills going back to the 1600s), but the full court papers perished! In this case the records seem to have survived in estate papers.
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Bookbox, unfortunately here in Ireland many of our records were destroyed in the Four Courts fire in 1922. Frustratingly the index has often survived (e.g. listing plaintiffs and defendants in bills going back to the 1600s), but the full court papers perished! In this case the records seem to have survived in estate papers.
Thanks for the explanation.
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Sorry hopping back a bit to start. Was there an age children were considered minors up until at this time?
D
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I wonder if I could get an opinion on this line as it might be important to my own tree.
Many thanks,
Donna
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… the said Francis Ellis to enter
into and possess the Same Immediately from & after the death of Sarah Clements late wife of the said Edward this def(endan)ts said late Father and did alsoe Leave
to his said Sister Millisent Crumble[?]* six broad pieces of gold to the Vallue of twenty five shillings [each] …
* - could be Crymble
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Thank you Bookbox,
I read third in there somehow last night instead of thisd eft but sussed it out with fresh eyes this morning. It is Crymble yes.
Donna
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In general, if you're able to resolve something after you've posted, can you please post again to advise that, to save others spending time on it unnecessarily? Thanks.