RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: BristolClark on Saturday 01 October 22 14:45 BST (UK)
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As the title suggests, there is a potential DNA connection that works out spot on paper trail wise. The only part that has me being hesitant to believe both the paper trail and the DNA connection is the inclusion of two children with the same names whilst both are still alive.
eg: Richard married Sarah and named their 3rd child Elizabeth b.1738 - d.1791.
Sarah dies and Richard remarries to a Hester and eventually has another child (9th) named Elizabeth b.1752.
Was this a thing that happened? I've never seen it happen before.
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I have a woman giving her children the same names during her second marriage, but of course the surnames were different.
The children in your case would have the same forename but different mothers. I don't know if this is allowed.
John Patrick McEnroe has a full brother named Patrick John, tht's allowed.
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I have the same within 2 years of each other and same parents , I can only assume he might have been inebriated when registering his second daughter, about 1900
LM
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The first Elizabeth was 14 when the second was born, and may even have left home. She may have been known as Lizzie, Liza, Beth or another name altogether. The second wife may have had family reasons for wanting the name. Just random thoughts!
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The first Elizabeth was 14 when the second was born, and may even have left home. She may have been known as Lizzie, Liza, Beth or another name altogether. The second wife may have had family reasons for wanting the name. Just random thoughts!
Yes, you get a lot of this. One family had both an Elizabeth and an Eliza, must have assumed they were different names. Anoth5r family had a Mary Elizabeth (known as Bessie) a Mary Ann Martha and then an Ann Eliza, both known by their first forenames.
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I've come across this several times where a husband and wife give same Christian names to 2 different children because the name seemed to be special to them in some way. Not common now but can't think why it wouldn't be allowed.
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I forgot Bessie! I have a family with Maria, Mary Ann and Mary Lucy, in the 1830s.
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I have a woman giving her children the same names during her second marriage, but of course the surnames were different.
I have a woman who named her eldest 2 sons after her father. First was illegitimate, born when she was 17/18 and was brought up by his grandma. Second was 10 years later, elder child of her marriage, so a different surname. I suspect that her husband's family accepted the fiction that her eldest son was her brother.
My GGM and her youngest sister were both named Elizabeth. GGM was known by her first and middle name. Younger sister had only 1 name. Another sister was Mary Ann but was known as Sarah. I've noticed other families on censuses who had 2 daughters with variations of Elizabeth.
A family with 10 daughters named one Mary and the youngest one Maria. Baby Maria died within a week of her baptism.
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A post on the US board this week was about a family with two Lydias:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=866240.0
and I have met someone locally (NE United States) who has the same first name as his brother - same father, different mothers.
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I don't know if this is allowed.
How could it be regulated? The Registrar is not to know how many children and what names they are.
Regards
Chas
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It seems to have been fairly common in the 19th century -- and to some extent in the early 20th -- to call children by a middle name. That was the case with three of my grandparents (and the fourth had no middle name anyway). So at least in theory one could have half a dozen siblings all with the same first forename (perhaps given in honour of a grandparent) but each known by a different name.
I still find it odd, whatever the circumstances or the explanation.
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My Gt. Grandfather married twice, and had a son to his first wife and then another who was named the same to his second wife. Both sons were living at the same time.
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Was the eldest Elizabeth still at home and considered part of the family?
It may be that when he started the new family the 'old' family was ignored and either out working and pretty much cut off or put into a children's home
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I have a few “double” names in several branches, mostly occurring mid- to late-1800s, some of them are:
John and John (first died young)
Charlotte and Charlotte (both lived), mother Charlotte
Sarah and Sarah (first died young and possible a third Sarah, also died young), mother named Sarah
The following didn’t give two children in the family the same name, but…
My most confusing branch, all living at the same time, same town, same surname:
Three generations of James.
2nd generation, three sons (James, William and F. E. William) married, the sister remained single
3rd generation, three (cousins) named James, two (cousins) named William, two (cousins) named Emily
James was handed down since at least c1741
Now I understand why the third generation James strictly used his middle name! When I started researching the family I had no idea that his first name was James.
I don’t think it is in my tree, I believe I was helping someone else, when I found three sons with the same first name, all three survived childhood.
Perhaps this was mentioned already by another poster, but (years ago I read that) due to high mortality among infants and children it wasn’t too unusual to use the same name more than once, in order to increase the odds of the name being carried down.
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In my tree I have John ye elder and John ye younger born to the same parents (16th century) - the father was Thomas. Luckily documented as such in parish records.
Jackie
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Thank you to everyone for the responses. You've cetainly shown me that it isn't as rare an occurence as I had thought. Just seems odd to my "modern eyes" to see two children with the same name.
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Another thing is using variants of a name in different languages e.g. John/Sean/Ian/Owen.
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My ancestor Thomas Wilcoxon was baptised in 1824, the illegitimate son of Thomas Wilcoxon.
His father TW went on to have another illegitimate son before marrying another woman,
In 1836 he named his first legitimate son Thomas Wilcoxon.
Both sons who lived about 15 miles from each other named one of their sons Thomas.
🙄
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In a branch of my tree, William (son of William and Mary) had five children, three sons called William and two daughters called Mary, between 1850 and 1887. He had three wives, one William with each. The two elder sons had middle names. The first and third wives each had a daughter, Mary Rosa and Mary Agnes.
Added next morning: Forgot to say, all five lived to adulthood, four of them married and had children.
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I have found a number of examples of this - in a German branch of a family I was researching. I seem to remember that even though they had the same first names, the convention was that they were known by their 2nd name.
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George Forman the boxer has five sons all named George.
Melbell
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My father and brother had the same first names; my brother is known by his middle name, the reasoning being that they wanted to name him after my father but felt it would be too awkward to have 2 people with the same name in the same household. So you could extend that thinking to any number of siblings; give them all the same first name, and use a middle name for their "daily name".
My gt-grandfather had 2 brothers who were alive at the same time; John William and John Henry. I assume that one or both went by their middle name.
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In a branch of my tree, William (son of William and Mary) had five children, three sons called William and two daughters called Mary, between 1850 and 1887. He had three wives, one William with each. The two elder sons had middle names. The first and third wives each had a daughter, Mary Rosa and Mary Agnes.
Added next morning: Forgot to say, all five lived to adulthood, four of them married and had children.
My Greatgranfather had a family and wife in London in mid to late 1800s whom he left for my Great Grandmother. Many of the children from the second union had the same names as those from the first marraige and naturally the same surname (Turville). I believe many were family names.
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I have found a number of examples of this - in a German branch of a family I was researching. I seem to remember that even though they had the same first names, the convention was that they were known by their 2nd name.
Yes, quite common, at least in my grandmother's German family. Her grandparents Valentine & Sophie were christened Johann Valentine and Maria Sophie with siblings all called Johann something or Maria something.