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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: kazza56 on Thursday 15 September 22 20:05 BST (UK)
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I'm hoping someone has an idea of helping me with my GrGrGrandmothers lineage.
I have reason to believe she was raised by my ancestors (Pennycook/Porteous) but not actually a birth child of theirs. Did children get passed on to others if they were living in poverty?
Did other family members pass children on? Perhaps illegitimate?
How can I explore this avenue if the surname becomes a dead end to my search. I'm at a loss. Thanks for any suggestions.
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The answer could be very different depending on when and where. Could you give us a little more to go on - dates, places, names and any other information you have about them?
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My GrGrGrandmother Marion Pennycook (James Pennycook/Helen Porteous raised her) born around 1823 in Cockpen, however no birth record can be found. I have done my DNA on MyHeritage and Ancestry and have no connections to either family name. However, I do have DNA connections to Edward McGill Neilson/Catherine Banks (B 1793) from the Invernesk area. They were coalminers and I have no surname connections that I can trace, only DNA. It seems that James Pennycook was a coalminer at some time. Could this be where Marion came from? She had other siblings but is "first born" and I can locate some records for the other children, but not Marion. I would appreciate any thoughts.
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If she died after 1854, have you seen her death certificate? If so, what does it say about her parents?
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Yes, I have here Death Cert. from Scotlands People for 1886 at the Inveresk Combination Poorhouse. It lists her parents as James Pennycook and Helen Porteous. (No burial record for her).
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My GrGrGrandmother Marion Pennycook (James Pennycook/Helen Porteous raised her) born around 1823 in Cockpen, however no birth record can be found.
However, I do have DNA connections to Edward McGill Neilson/Catherine Banks (B 1793) from the Invernesk area. They were coalminers and I have no surname connections that I can trace, only DNA. It seems that James Pennycook was a coalminer at some time. Could this be where Marion came from? She had other siblings but is "first born" and I can locate some records for the other children, but not Marion. I would appreciate any thoughts.
When/where/who did Marion Pennycook marry & what info. is on her MC?
Not all baptisms were recorded & not all have survived.
When you say James & Helen 'raised her'...where does this come from (what info.)?
Is Marion not listed as 'Daughter' on census records with James & Helen?
Have you viewed all marriages of siblings to see if Marion was a witness which would be quite a common thing being 'big sis'?
Surname DNA connections in your tree could be from other family members (female) via marriages.
Just because you don't have links to certain surnames means nothing until/unless you can prove otherwise.
I have found only a handful of DNA connections to my maternal lines i.e. to me, not enough people have tested to date.
Annie
Add...Your last message appeared while I was posting...
Why are you doubting who the parents of Marion are?
Not all burial info. is online.
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Thanks for your response Annie.
Marion Pennycook married James Hamilton at St.Cuthberts, Newbattle in July 1851.
I only have the Bann for the marriage, so no other names or witnesses.
I am using the word "raised" her because I can find no record of a birth or baptism. I can find birth records of her siblings on Scotlands People. (Thomas & Janet, twins, Chirstie, Helen etc)
On Census records, yes, she is listed as Daughter.
I will check the marriage certificates of siblings to see whether Marion is a witness. But, even if she wasn't a "birth sibling" she could still be named.
The reason I am questioning her birth is that with both Ancestry & MyHeritage DNA subscriptions, I would have expected that the name Pennycook would have appeared in one of the many thousands of DNA matches. But, as you said, the more people who test, perhaps the name will eventually appear.
Marion's Death Certificate confirms her parents (whether birth or not) were James Pennycook and Helen Porteous. I am still relatively new to genealogy so am still learning what is and what is not available. As I said, I truly appreciate any suggestions. One query, why would all the siblings be available on SP and not Marion's ? Regards.
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I had a look at the minutes of the kirk session of Cockpen from 1816 - 1826. The only mentions of Pennycooks during that period were:
James Pennycook, carter, Hillhead, being fined 5/- on 23-7-1820 for breaking a fast day by yoking his cart
William Pennycook, joiner, Hillhead, being ordained an elder on 19-11-1820
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One query, why would all the siblings be available on SP and not Marion's ?
By far the most likely explanation is that for some reason or other either no record of the baptism was made, or if it was it has not survived.
Just because there is no surviving record of the baptism doesn't mean anything more than that.
I wouldn't worry too much about an absence of DNA links.
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"I can find birth records of her siblings on Scotlands People. (Thomas & Janet, twins, Chirstie, Helen etc)"
I personally have found little in surname matches with people who descend from ancestors born c 1823, as your Marion Pennycook was.
Many people I connect with are a couple of generations this side with different surnames descended of married females or other or have no info. on their ancestors to compare.
You seem to have come in with all guns blazing...
Not everyone goes in for DNA but may have trees online (whether correct/incorrect) i.e. you need to expect different surnames & lack of ancestors names in trees as I've often found DNA matches' trees don't go back very far, as if relying on DNA to magically produce their family tree!
Have you considered the LEEDS Method...
https://www.yourdnaguide.com/leeds-method
Annie
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In your search for Marion’s birth/baptism, have you looked for variations in the spelling of both surname and forename? For example Marion may have been her middle name.
I agree with Annie regarding DNA matches coming down the female line, with changing surnames upon marriage, which is why you aren’t getting any Pennycook surname matches. It sounds like an unusual surname, though I haven’t checked yet to see distribution and numbers.Added: did a quick check and found quite a few ….
Maybe you should give the family the benefit of the doubt and assume that James and Helen are her parents if you have nothing more to go on than you can’t find Marion’s birth?
Have you traced the families further back to see if the name Marion appears in earlier generations? Not always reliable but may be a clue.
Added: If you are able to trace Marion’s siblings down to the present day, you could approach them to ask if they would be willing to take a DNA test.
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I notice that Penicuik is a place in Midlothian …. which is interesting. :)
Wondering the surname Pennycook stems from that?
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I notice that Penicuik is a place in Midlothian …. which is interesting. :)
Wondering the surname Pennycook stems from that?
Yes, according G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland it is of territorial origin from the barony of Penicuik.
The earliest reference to it is from the reign of King Alexander II (1214-1249).
Spellings of both place name and personal name vary.
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Do you have marriage records of all of Marion's siblings ? Do a name check on the mother of their spouse to see if you have matches with any of those names
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Thanks for all those great suggestions.
I will consider and chase them all up. I know sometimes there are many different doors to go through for a different approach.
Marion's mother (Helen Porteous) was the daughter of Marion Brunton (& John Porteous), so the name fits in with the first born daughter being named after the mother's mother.
Yes, perhaps I should be patient and give her parents the benefit of the doubt that they are in fact her birth parents.
I have never heard of the LEEDS method, but will certainly look into that as well.
So, again, many thanks for your thoughts. It's very helpful.
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Another tip when you look for different spellings in DNA match search function do not use the alternative spelling option
It gives ridiculous matches
Put each one in one by one Pennicook
Penycook
Etc
Look at what transcriptions are given by ancestry for the records ..your DNA matches may have copied a spelling from a transcription and not the original document
I have researched several families with informal fostering at that era and I do believe you should look seriously if you have a cluster of names leading back to a different family
My grandmother was fostered out . Her mother then had a legitimate son who had 3 children from 2 marriages we were extremely lucky that 1 son tested other wise we would not have any close matches all of her birth mothers nephews and nieces lines died out .
Other people who seem to match that side come from all over and no unusual names on her father's side so I can't build a tree up but going up thru the mother's side my gggmother we get back to 6x cousins whose line we can follow thru locations names and documents.
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That's really interesting. So lucky for you to get some answers in such a complicated family background.
Excellent advice. Yes, I will enter with the individual spelling options rather than asking the system to find them for me.
By the way, to Annie and earlier responses, I have been on Scotlands People today and found no reference to Marion Pennycook being a witness to any wedding, death etc.
On that note, who is usually a witness to a birth? Brothers, fathers or friends perhaps. Either way, it always seems to be a male. There were a couple of names unknown to me, so perhaps family friends?
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I have been on Scotlands People today and found no reference to Marion Pennycook being a witness to any wedding, death etc.
On that note, who is usually a witness to a birth? Brothers, fathers or friends perhaps. Either way, it always seems to be a male. There were a couple of names unknown to me, so perhaps family friends?
It's unlucky Marion wasn't witness to her siblings' marriages but it doesn't mean she wasn't their full sibling.
In my experience, the father is usually the 'informant' of a birth, however, depending on the occ. of the father, who may be away from home then the mother or other relative.
In the case of illegitimate children, usually the mother is the 'informant' or another family member.
When trying to find DNA connections, it's best you build a 'wide' tree i.e. include all siblings of Marion, their wives/husbands & their descendants.
This was how I found connections to my maternal line.
Sometimes when you find DNA matches you may not recognise surnames in their trees who may be descendants of siblings of Marion i.e. tracing down those lines will help when you add them to your tree as quite often you'll find many haven't traced back far enough, hence the lack of the surname especially as mentioned, their ancestor was a female.
Annie
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On that note, who is usually a witness to a birth? Brothers, fathers or friends perhaps. Either way, it always seems to be a male. There were a couple of names unknown to me, so perhaps family friends?
Are you possibly confusing witnesses to a birth with witnesses to a baptism?
I have seen one or two pre-1855 records in the parish registers that give the name of one or more people who witnessed a birth. These are almost invariably female, and usually include the midwife and female relative(s) of the mother.
Witnesses to a baptism can be male or female. The practice seems to vary. In some parishes they are almost all male, but in others there can be an equal number of male and female.
If a witness' name doesn't seem to fit, they may be a friend or neighbour, or a more distant relative, such as the spouse of an aunt, uncle or cousin.
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"cherchez la femme"
as has been said surnames may not be obvious if they match up or down thru the female lines
i suggest you add the mcgill ?Banks couple as a floating branch build their trees down and add tag to each generation you have a dna connection to
you may find one of them is the ancestor of one of Marions parents or a different potential parent you can add child and not specify gender or birth year then grandchild then add surname of a dna s ancestor of dna matches
m not sure ive explained that well but the point is distant matches may look at your tree if they see a common surname and they may have knowledge of breaks in the official family line
for example i found a divorce record which names the man who is acused of adultery with the wife a few years after birth of child I added his surname as alternative father but tagged as hypothesis .he was SMITH but his maternal grandmother had an unusual surname .and low and behold there were matches to that surname .
Have you done a name search for Neilson as middle name could indicate a grandparent
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"However, I do have DNA connections to Edward McGill Neilson/Catherine Banks (B 1793) from the Invernesk area. "
Kazza,
Can I as you something about your DNA links to this couple?
Do your DNA connections stem from more than one child born to this couple?
My husband's ancestral aunt, (daughter of his 4x great grandparents) married one of their sons.
This son and his wife emigrated to the US and became LDS members.
Being LDS families, many descendants have undertaken DNA tests.
So far, my husband has 37 DNA matches to their descendants and the amount of shared DNA for each definitive relationship ( most are 4-5c ) is a bit too high. IE 40cM-95cM
I have never found any other connection, and no DNA matches with any other child born to the Neilson/Banks couple
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I found the same when managing trees + DNA related to pioneers + latterday saints
huge families and often men have 3 different wives and lots of children but connect in different ways ..sometimes the dna is less than you expect because its descendants of half siblings of half siblings sometimes its higher because you descend from 2 lines ...In small religious communities its quite common to marry second cousins
anne P why dont you give the name and year of their son + grandchildren + some of the spouses surnnames down the line
so kassa can see if she matches any descendants ...
its very exciting .
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if you do have matches in UTAH or LDS states
I suggest you use location colour code .one colour for utah 1 colour for scotland check your matches trees around 1850 to see if you can find ancestors who left scotland and arrived UTAH
sometimes children were left behind with friends or neighbours .
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Within the family that I'm looking at, none of their children were involved in polygamy.
All had one spouse only.
Initially I wondered if the higher DNA matches were stemming from just one child where a possible connection was found in the spouse.
It's not the case.
The DNA matches are spread throughout the descendants of all of the children and not an individual one.
I didn't give the details because I don't want to confuse Kazza with information but, wondered if her DNA matches were spread over multiple children born to the Neilson/Banks couple which would solidify her thoughts.
If it was just one of their numerous children, then it's possible that she is linked to the spouse rather than a Neilson/ Nelson child
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the families I investigated werent all polygamous either but married young and separated or remarried when spouse died .
I meant give the surname of some spouses to look up in shared surname function for dna matches
why would it be confusing ?