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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Spiral on Thursday 08 September 22 14:37 BST (UK)
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I am confused whilst looking for the birth of Charles Dennis, a cabinet maker living in Birmingham, who says in the 1911 census that he was born in Bloomsbury and is 66 (so 1844/5). Now I had thought that I had found his birth in Lambeth (Mmn Gray) which matched up with a family of cabinet makers. Father George even agrees with Charles marriage information in 1866. So I thought he was just confused and accepted a slight southern shift.
Great! Except for doing back recently I have FindMyPast and Freebmd throwing up an illegitimate birth in 3rd quarter 1844. But surely Bloomsbury ceased to be a registration area in 1839 so how could this be? The birth is not apparently on the GRO site under any name I can find. I don’t want to waste money asking GRO to look for a non existent registration so decided to ask the experts here if they can shed any light on this oddity. Is it likely to be an error on the part of the sites or of GRO?
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Ancestry has this baptism
St George, Bloomsbury, Camden
Born June 6th 1844
Baptised November 23rd 1845
Charles, son of James & Hannah Dennis
Residence Munchmont Place
occupation of father servant
I'm not sure about Freebmd but on FindMyPast a lack of mmn doesn't always mean
illegitimate, I think it is still a work in progress.
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I'm not sure about Freebmd but on FindMyPast a lack of mmn doesn't always mean
illegitimate, I think it is still a work in progress.
Freebmd does not generally list MMN until September qtr 1911 on their birth index
ADDED The entry for the birth registration on FindMyPast links to an image of the register which does not show any MMN's on the page
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ADDED The entry for the birth registration on FindMyPast links to an image of the register which does not show any MMN's on the page
Good point! Thanks for that. But the Bloomsbury note throws me still.
I notice that there is a marriage for a George James Dennis and a Mary Ann Wilson that could tie the baptism that Comberton has found with Charles saying his father is George Dennis - and a servant could become a cabinet maker. Looks like I have a new path to explore.
Do you think that it is worth while trying GRO with the info that FindMyPast gives?
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1851 census ref, is this your family, father's profession matches Charles marriage in 1866.
Piece: 1564
Folio: 182
Page Number: 30
The sons Edward & William birth ref below
DENNIS, WILLIAM HENRY mmnGRAY
GRO Reference: 1848 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK Volume 04 Page 491
DENNIS, EDWARD THOMAS mmn GRAY
GRO Reference: 1850 S Quarter in SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK
John
John
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FindMyPast and Freebmd throwing up an illegitimate birth in 3rd quarter 1844. The birth is not apparently on the GRO site under any name I can find.
Might be indexed twice originally?
BEVAN, CHARLES
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1844 S Quarter in ST. GILES IN THE FIELDS & ST. GEORGE BLOOMSBURY Volume 01 Page 42
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Looks like I have a new path to explore.
If you have his birth registration in Lambeth and family why are you looking at the Bloomsbury birth?
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If you have his birth registration in Lambeth and family why are you looking at the Bloomsbury birth?
Because in 1911 he says he is born in Bloomsbury not in Lambeth. I want to eliminate any doubts about his parents
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1851 census ref, is this your family, father's profession matches Charles marriage in 1866.
Piece: 1564
Folio: 182
Page Number: 30
The sons Edward & William birth ref below
DENNIS, WILLIAM HENRY mmnGRAY
GRO Reference: 1848 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK Volume 04 Page 491
DENNIS, EDWARD THOMAS mmn GRAY
GRO Reference: 1850 S Quarter in SAINT GEORGE THE MARTYR SOUTHWARK
John
John
Yes this is the family I was working on when I came across the other possible birth registration.
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I see in a couple of other censuses he states his birth as Westminster, so fairly consistently not Lambeth/Southwark.
However, I can't see him with the Lambeth/Southwark family after 1851, so perhaps something happened and he ended up with relatives in the Westminster/Bloomsbury area? Not so unusual for someone to remember where they grew up, and give that instead of what was on the birth certificate.
I would go back to the 1866 marriage.
Where did it happen, exactly?
What was his address at the time?
Who were the witnesses?
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Now I had thought that I had found his birth in Lambeth (Mmn Gray) which matched up with a family of cabinet makers.
I do believe this is the correct Charles, and you are being thrown off by the 1911 census.
When Charles Dennis married Annie Elizabeth Webb in 1866 it was at St James Shoreditch. He was living a 5 minute walk from the church in New Inn Yard, Hackney.
Witnesses at wedding were Henry Webb and Ann Webb. Charles signed his name.
IN the 1851 census George DENNIS cabinet maker with wife Elizabeth (nee Gray) and family living in Southwark St George.
The son Charles is 6 born in Southwark. His birth registration is Dec ¼ 1844 Lambeth.
In 1861 that same son Charles is working as a shoeblack and boarding (still in Southwark), with the “Superintendent of Shoe Blacks”. (I note he married the daughter of someone in the shoe business)
In the 1861 census George Dennis is still in the Southwark area working as a cabinet maker, along with a couple of his oldest sons in the same trade.
By 1871 census the father George has died (possible death 1865 St George Southwark, age 58) and the rest of Dennis family is now living in Somers Town, St Pancras – older sons doing the cabinet making.
In 1871 your Charles is also in Somers Town, St Pancras (close to the rest of the Dennis family).
One other thing to note - Charles's siblings who were also born in the Southwark area, say they were born Middlesex and St Pancras / Camden from 1871 & in later census.
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I am sorry that I have not got back to thank you for all the help. I agree with all your research but there a couple of matters that prevent me saying “case closed”
In 1861 that same son Charles is working as a shoeblack and boarding (still in Southwark), with the “Superintendent of Shoe Blacks”. (I note he married the daughter of someone in the shoe business)
The “Society of Shoeblacks” was, I understand, a offshoot of the Ragged Schools movement set up to provide destitute and homeless boys with employment up to age 18. How did Charles, with a family in the area, qualify? Was it enough for him to have quarrelled with his father and been thrown out? I cannot find any records to help answer this question. Did he only reconcile with the family after his father’s death.
I know that we can seldom be certain of our facts and going on the balance of probabilities I am accepting the Southwark family but I am trying to get the Bloomsbury birth certificate.
Thanks again for all your interest.