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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: TimCSS on Friday 02 September 22 19:19 BST (UK)
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Still seeking an Elizabeth Sarah or Elizabeth Sophia HUMPHRIES who is known to have been in Brighton, Sussex, in the years 1856, 1857, and 1858. Those on BMDs do not seem to tie up. Guesstimated age in 1857 between 20 and 30 years. (BUT this could be incorrect!)
Any assistance appreciated. TCS.
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Do we take it that Humphries is her maiden name? Anything known of any family, parents, siblings etc.
Any idea of where she was born?
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Here's one of the threads from 2014-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=690276.0
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I have asked the moderator to merge the threads to avoid duplication of info
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Trying to trace Elizabeth Sarah Humphreys or Humphries. Possibly born Brighton c1833. Baptised St Nicholas 1833. If the same mother of John Humphries born Brighton 1857. No later trace found so far.
Baptism of Elizabeth Sarah, 8 Nov 1833, Brighton St Nicholas
Parents George + Elizabeth Humphreys.
Abode Regent St.
Father a Cooper
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XC74-6SJ
Baptism of John, 28 March 1858, Brighton St Peter
Parent Elizabeth Sarah Humphreys
Abode Grosvenor Street
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D41S-65N
There is this birth reg, is it the right one?
HUMPHRIES, JOHN LAING
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in BRIGHTON Volume 02B Page 199
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An Elizabeth Humphreys, 16, born Brighton, Sussex, with parents George and Elizabeth in Lambeth in 1851.
52 Walnut Tree Walk.
George is a Shop Keeper.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKH-2YJ
Five children born Brighton, three born Lambeth.
I think some of those ages may be a year or two out.
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Re John Laing Humphries
Marriage, March 1877 Tunbridge 2a 682
John Humphries + Amelia Waters
Birth of son
HUMPHRIES, LEWIS JOHN LAING
Mother's Maiden Surname: WATERS
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in TONBRIDGE Volume 02A Page 597
They are in Brighton in 1881.
EDIT The marriage was at Horsmonden, St. Margaret.
I don't have any details.
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This death has been suggested
HUMPHREYS, ELIZABETH
Age at Death (in years): 17
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 04 Page 203
Burial at St. Mary Lambeth, 25 April 1851
Elizabeth Humphreys
Abode 54 Walnut tree Walk
Age 17
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Well, there is a Brighton connection to 54 Walnut Tree Walk in 1851, as the head of household, Jane Parsons Luxford, was born there, according to the census.
Watkins's Commercial and General London Directory, 1852
Humphreys G. coal deal. &c. 52 Walnut tree walk, Lambeth
Anyway, it looks like George and Elizabeth's daughter Elizabeth (Sarah) may have died in 1851.
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Any assistance appreciated. TCS.
Perhaps you need to elaborate on who/what/why
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In 1861 the family John is with in Ringmer in 1871 - Thomas and Frances Naomi Potter (nee Toogood) - are in Brighton although Thomas is shown as Joseph!! However, they have a dau. Eliza Potter aged 2 born Brighton who actually appears to be Ellen Elizabeth birth Dec.qtr.1858 Brighton - mmn Toogood and after her is a 'son' Joseph Potter aged 4 also born Brighton. I'm wondering if this 'Joseph' is in fact your John Humphries. John is listed as Potter in 1871 and more to the point, there is no Joseph Potter mmn Toogood ca.1857 Brighton or under Toogood hence me wondering if this could in fact be your John.
Annette
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There is this birth reg, is it the right one?
HUMPHRIES, JOHN LAING
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in BRIGHTON Volume 02B Page 199
Still not had an answer to this question.
If it is, and you have the certificate, please give all the information on it. There are quite a number of Elizabeth Humph* in Brighton, and elsewhere in Sussex.
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Re the Potters.
Thomas and Frances Naomi Potter married 17 July 1856, Forest Row, East Grinstead.
Thomas was a Butler.
They have a daughter, Catherine Jane, baptized there, 4 Jan 1857.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-69C9-1K2
Then Ellen Elizabeth was baptized 9 January 1859, St. Peter Brighton
Abode Grosvenor Street
Father a Servant
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-D41S-61D
Perhaps Thomas Potter and Elizabeth Humphries were in service together? Or was John with the Potters in Grosvenor Street by March 1858?
Then at Ringmer, 12 Oct 1862
Henry Humphrey's(!)
Parents Thomas and Frances Naomi Potter
Abode Ringmer
Father a Servant
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6X19-KDS
POTTER, HENRY HUMPHREY
Mother's Maiden Surname: TOOGOOD
GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in LEWES Volume 02B Page 147
He is Henry Humphris Potter, 9, in Ringmer in 1871
Bearing the same middle name as John, 14.
A bit strange!
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I started to reply to all your responses to my Humphries enquiry last night but somehow lost it all!
Jonw65. Yes, we have John Laing Humphries, born Brighton 1857, my wife's Gt Grandfather. The address given
was a 'lodging house' just off Brighton Sea Front. I do have the certificate. Father's name not given although we do know all about him.
Annette7. Yes, John Humphries was 'farmed out' to live with the Potter family firstly in Brighton and later Ringmer with John Body. Shown as John 'Humphris' Potter. Most of that family in Ringmer churchyard now but one married and went to USA. A letter from her exists. John Body was a'Fly Operator', the minicab of the day.
JonW65. Unfortunately no connection with the coal dealer. Elizabeth Sophia's father was a publican.
I crossed the George & Elizabeth Humphreys off the list some time ago.
John Laing Humphries married Amelia Waters at St Margarets church Horsmonden a couple of miles from where we live. The Waters family had shops in several Kent towns. John Laing Humphries first shop was in St James Street Brighton. The baptism at St Nicholas church Brighton is not connected. (Another of those Red Herrings!) The 1858 baptism at St Peters is John although mother's middle name is given as Sarah and name spelt 'Humphreys'.
Lewis John Laing Humphries was elder brother to Ernest who was my wife's Grandfather. Lewis had a motor car repair garage in Lewes Sussex. Ernest had general stores and shops as did his father.
GirlGuide. Elizabeth Sophia was born in Lambeth where her father John Terry Humphries had a pub. Baptised December 1833. Believe two brothers of Elizabeth Sophia, William Robert and James Frederick.
Your latest came in whilst I was writing: Yes that's right. They later moved to Brighton and then Ringmer. Thomas Potter's father had a pub at Bramber in Sussex. His brother Walter was the famous Victorian taxidermist.
CaroleW & Kiltaglassan: As you both see this has been a 'on-going' project. Thanks for your interest.
I think that covers most of it so far. Thank You all.
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JonW; Just read your latest; Most of that is correct. Still digging into Grosvenor Street. Demolished long time ago! Henry Humphris Potter died young, got the date somewhere. He's in Ringmer churchyard as well.
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I'm getting confused - where does the second name 'Sophia' suddenly come from, and why have you now rejected that George and Elizabeth were her parents? You say now her father was a publican? How do you know that?
How is she named on John's birth certificate - Elizabeth Sarah, Elizbeth Sophia or just plain Elizabeth? As you say, on baptism she is Elizabeth Sarah - at a time when most of the working class couldn't read or write names were just written as they sounded to the relevant recorder of an event so change between Humphries to Humphreys is quite common.
Annette
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Annette: Yes, all confusing isn't it! When this started out it confused us as well.
We have positively discounted the Elizabeth SARAH Humphries baptised at St Nicholas Brighton daughter of George & Elizabeth as that family appear not to have had any later connections to Brighton. So put them to one side for the time being.
Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries; Her father was a publican John Terry Humphries in Lambeth London. Her mother Sarah (ms Walesby) was his second wife.
Details from birth certificate of John Laing HUMPHRIES;
Registration District, BRIGHTON, The Palace, County of Sussex. No 31. 11th April 1857, 24 Oriental Place. Sex, Boy. Mother's Name, Elizabeth Sarah Humphries. Signature, description and residence of informant, John Laing, occupier, 24 Oriental Place, Brighton. When Registered, Twentyfirst April 1857. George Smith, Registrar.
24 Oriental Place was a good class lodging house often used by John Laing's brother the Reverend David Laing when staying or preaching in Brighton. He was responsible for building Holy Trinity church at Haverstock Hill in west London.
We presume that John Laing did not know Elizabeth's second name or was confused at the time he registered the birth. He later married a woman whose name was Sarah. (his second wife) Or maybe the name Sarah was used to confuse other people including us! Perhaps the registrar was hard of hearing, who knows? Yes, people did spell phonetically.
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I am very confused. Am I reading your post correctly or have I misunderstood something?
Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries; Her father was a publican John Terry Humphries in Lambeth London. Her mother Sarah (ms Walesby) was his second wife.
May I ask what proof you have that Elizabeth Sarah/Sophia's father was a publican. I thought you said that you did not have any details of her birth or death.
With regard to John Laing Humphries birth registration, how was the informant John Laing described - just present at the birth? Anything else apart from occupier of the lodging house? You also said that you know all about John Laing Humphries father - who was he? You haven't actually given his name, or was it John Laing? Again, may I ask what is the proof of that?
Nell
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If an Elizabeth Sarah was his mother on birth certificate and on his baptism why are you talking about an Elizabeth Sophia? It makes no sense.
Annette
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why have you now rejected that George and Elizabeth were her parents?
Their daughter Elizabeth seems to have died in 1851, age 17.
See Replies #7, #8
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Little Nell: As I said at the start of this; " Elizabeth SARAH and Elizabeth SOPHIA are probably one and the same person. After John Terry Humphries the publican died his wife went to Southampton. When their daughter Elizabeth SOPHIA was at the school in Montpelier Road Brighton her address was given as Southampton. (I have the actual address somewhere I think)
John Laing, the informant on the birth certificate, lived at 61 Montpelier Road Brighton. This address was only about a hundred yards or so down the road from the school at 'Belevedere', Montpelier Road where Elizabeth was living during the 1850s, and she is shown there in the 1851 Census.
On the birth Cert John Laing is only described as 'occupier', That wasn't entirely true though was it!
John Laing died at his Montpelier Road address in 1869; In his Will he left John (Laing) Humphries very well provided for and paid for his education, (we don't know where,) and accommodation with the Potter family at Brighton and Ringmer.
As she was only referred to in John Laing's Will as 'Mrs Potter' she took a lot of finding! Presumably the Brighton solicitor, David Black, would have had her full address at the time.
John Laing was from a Scottish family. It was a tradition in Scotland that when a child was born illegitimate, out of wedlock', the biological father's name would be given to the child as a middle name.
Annette7:
The other Humphries family weren't in Brighton by then and that Elizabeth had died.
As you see you can easily be misled into thinking you have the correct person when you haven't!
Does that cover it all? TCS.
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Hi
Where have you got Elizabeth Sophia's Southampton address from? Do you have records from the school? :-\
Here is the 1851 census entry for her at the Montpelier Road School, Brighton.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJK-SQX
Looking at the original, it does look to me like E A Humphr(e)y, 14, born Southampton.
Surname is dittoed from the "G" above, who was 16.
Likewise, place of birth.
All girls, so is "G" her sister?
"G" and another girl are the eldest pupils at 16.
Unless "E" stayed on at the school in some other capacity, she would have left long before John was born in 1857. Is there evidence she was living in Montpelier Road later?
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PCC Will of John Terry Humphries, Licensed Victualler of Vauxhall Walk , Surrey
26 December 1833
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D260901
Wife is Sarah Terry Humphries.
Daughter Elizabeth Sophia was baptized 5 Dec 1832, St. Mary Lambeth
Abode Vauxhall Walk
Father Publican
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99XQ-PX2Y
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Possible in 1851 in St Andrew Holborn?
40 Red Lion Street
Elizabeth Humphries Servt 19 Shopwoman, born Surrey Lambeth.
Head is Charles Elden, 42, Confectioner.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGX6-V9V
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John Terry Humphries married Sarah Terry Whalesby, 8 July 1827, St. Anne Soho.
John Terry Humphries buried 29 Oct 1833, Tooting Graveney.
Abode Lambeth. Age 43.
There was a posthumous daughter, Sarah Terry Humphries, who did marry in Southampton in 1864.
John's widow Sarah Terry Humphries married Barnabas Phillips, 24 April 1842, St. Mary Lambeth.
Father James Whalesby (decd.), Eating House Keeper
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9X7-XXBZ
In the 1851 census they are in Vauxhall Walk, Lambeth!
Sarah's youngest daughter Sarah Humphreys, 17, is with them.
The Terry name has been recorded as Fanny!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGT3-N6L
So Sarah wasn't in Southampton in 1851.
The idea that Elizabeth Sophia Humphries born Lambeth (in 1832) was at the school in Brighton in 1851 just doesn't stand up :(
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Perhaps in 1861 she is Eliza Humphries, 26, Needlewoman, born Lambeth, lodging in Lambeth?
Her fellow lodger is Martha Whalesby, 67, Laundress, born Brentwood.
Both unmarried.
Looks like the same Martha (Walesby), 55, born Essex Brentwood, who was with Sarah and Barnabas Phillips in Vauxhall Walk in 1851.
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I have before me as I write the 1872 Marriage Certificate for Elizabeth Sophia Humphries at Southampton to one John Gray. Her address was given as Orchard Street. However the age doesn't tie up hers being stated as 35 years. I know ladies would often reduce their age by a few years so I didn't worry too much about this. If the same person age should have been 40 years.I will go through the other postings in the morning. TCS.
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:( Sorry, TimCSS, I am not persuaded that you have joined the correct dots.
In Scotland it is quite common for children to be given surnames of a grandmother, grandfather or other relative from previous generations as a middle name even when the parents are married. It can provide useful clues for ancestor hunting.
The lodging house in Oriental Place was obviously a very respectable type of place. In fact, newspapers carried announcements of who had arrived to stay there or depart.
I think jon65 has unearthed some good information which should be given consideration. Elizabeth may well have been recorded as Eliza (my own great great grandmother was). The coincidence of the name Walesby/Whalesby is difficult to ignore.
Your latest information about Elizabeth Sophia Humphries marriage - what was her father's name and occupation on the certificate, please? Is she the Elizabeth Humphreys, servant at Forest View, Southampton in 1871? She was born in Lambeth.
Nell
Added
Why - if John Laing left John Laing Humphries well provided for in his will - did he not provide for Elizabeth in some way? Any ideas?
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Certainly a convoluted account.
The only thing I doubt is the 1851 census school in Brighton. I simply cannot believe that the E.A. (and it's definitely an 'A') Humphrey 14 preceded by G. Humphrey 16, both born Southampton, is your Elizabeth Humphries born in Lambeth.
Annette
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Details from birth certificate of John Laing HUMPHRIES;
Mother's Name, Elizabeth Sarah Humphries.
We presume that John Laing did not know Elizabeth's second name or was confused at the time he registered the birth.
Or maybe the name Sarah was used to confuse other people including us!
I am still don't understand where you got the middle name Sophia from.
How/why did you connect John's mother to Elizabeth Sophia b 1832 Lambeth, daughter of John Terry Humphries?
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After John Terry Humphries the publican died his wife went to Southampton.
But she didn't. As we have seen, she remarried to Barnabas Phillips, and remained living in Vauxhall Walk, Lambeth.
She died there.
June 1861 Lambeth 1d 238
Phillips, Sarah Terry
Age 69
Barnabas Phillips remarried in 1863, and he died at 70 Vauxhall Walk in 1888. Left a will.
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Good morning to each and all.
I can see you all think I am barking up the wrong tree here. After about twenty years trying to trace this woman I am sure you do understand the frustration and 'clutching at straws'. This is why at the suggestion of another genealogist I up-dated my enquiry on here. So do bear with me.
I will start with the 1872 marriage cert for Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries at Southampton in 1872 wherein her name is given as above and father's name as John Terry Humphries, deceased, occupation Publican. So not much doubt that she IS the Elizabeth Sophia born Lambeth in 1832 although age given (35) is incorrect. I received some information on Friday that both she and an elder brother were placed in the Licensed Victuallers School at Kennington Lane South London.
Report in the Morning Advertiser 30th August 1841.
" Elizabeth Sophia Humphries 8-3/4 (years) father dead, Mother takes in needlework, is much distressed, is in bad health, has another child to support, and one in the School; No. 52 Vauxhall-walk". (Address of the Queens Head public house)
From further info on Friday it seems that Mr & Mrs Humphries of the Queens Head had subscribed one guinea each per year to this organisation for a good number of years.
I am presuming that Elizabeth then went to the school in Brighton run by the Misses Wallace at Belvedere Montpelier Road. The writing and mis-spellings on that Census do nothing to advance these enquiries. The other Humphreys shown was not related. I think I did trace her family.
Martha Whalesby / Walesby living with Eliza in 1861 could be her Aunt. Eliza / Elizabeth's mother was a Whalesby.
I have the information on Sarah Whalesby's / Humphries' second marriage to Barnabus Phillips.
There was another Southampton connection there somewhere which I can't find at the moment. My file on all this is about two inches thick!
I also do not understand why Elizabeth Humphries is not mentioned in John Laing's Will. He left the (his) child very well provided for. Perhaps he had made an earlier settlement on her. These things were often done 'under the carpet' in those days. By then he was married to Marian SARAH Turrell (1866) Maybe hence the confusion over the middle names. (Conjecture)
I am grateful to all for suggestions and further information. Perhaps we shall never find the correct Elizabeth Humphries? TCS
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"I will start with the 1872 marriage cert for Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries at Southampton in 1872 "
Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate.....everything please....every name, age, occupation, address, date....name of church ................everything.
Can you indicate if bride / groom / witnesses sign their names.
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Herewith as requested: Marriage details for Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries;
1872. Marriage solemnised at the Register Office in the District of Southampton in the County of the same name.
No.112. When Married: Third April 1872.
Name & Surname: George GRAY. Age: 46 years. Condition: Bachelor. Rank or Profession: Laborer. Residence at the time of Marriage: John Street, Kingsland. Father's Name and Surname: John Gray (deceased). Rank or Profession of Father: Laborer.
Elizabeth Sophia Humphries. Age: 35 years. Condition: Spinster. Rank or Profession: - . Residence at the time of Marriage: Orchard Street. Father's Name and Surname: John Terry Humphries, (deceased). Rank or profession of Father: Publican.
Married at the Register Office............by Certificate before me, John Brice: Registrar. John A. Hunt Sup td. Reg.
This Marriage was solemnised between us, George Gray, .... Elizabeth Sophia Humphries.
In the Presence of us, X The mark of Mary Ann Tree. ... Joseph Gailor.
NB: 'Laborer is 'as spelt'.
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Thank you for the explanations.
Fact 1: Elizabeth Sophia Humphries daughter of John Terry Humphries married George Gray in 1872 as a single woman. Her age was at odds with her known baptism date.
Fact 2: John Laing registered the birth of John Laing Humphries, son of Elizabeth Sarah Humphries in 1857. No father named.
Fact 3: John Humphries son of Elizabeth Sarah Humphries was baptised in March 1858. No father named. Elizabeth definitely still alive at this point and presumably would have given her name to the officiating minister. So unless he made a mistake, she was Elizabeth Sarah.
Fact 4: John Laing provided for John Laing Humphries, paid for his education (according to his will).
If John Laing made an earlier settlement on Elizabeth 'under the carpet' then why would he fairly openly acknowledge John Humphries' existence and pay for his education?
At the moment there is absolutely nothing to connect Elizabeth Sarah Humphries, mother of John Humphries b 1857, to Elizabeth Sophia Humphries who married in 1872. I think they are probably two different people.
Nell
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I am inclined to agree with what you say. HOWEVER we still have the Brighton and Southampton connections with someone of the same or similar name/s. The mystery continues. I will re-read my copious notes (going back about twenty years!) when I have an hour or more to spare.
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The Wallace school in Montpelier Road was a very posh ladies' school.
There is no problem tracing another pair who were there in 1851, E A and E M Rigden, age 13 and 11, both born Faversham, Kent.
They were Elizabeth Anne, and Emma Martha, baptized at Faversham, and their parents were William Rigden and his wife Catherine (nee Simpson)
William and Catherine were at home in Faversham in 1851, with their youngest daughter Augusta, 2.
Plus a visitor, a "lady"
Five house servants
And a coachman!
So it should not be too difficult to find G Humphrey, age 16, and E A Humphrey, age 14, born Southampton. Especially as G was not a common first initial for a female.
Instead of which, it seems to be impossible!
I think there might have been a mistake, could their name have meant to be Lamprey
Baptism of Georgina Mary Lamprey, 4 Nov 1834, Southampton
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGQL-Z34Z
Baptism of Emily Augusta Lamprey, 24 May 1836, Southampton
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGQL-Z3SJ
They are attached on there to a tree which doesn't have them in 1851.
In Eling, Hampshire, in 1841.
Emily Lamprey is in the later census, unmarried. Variously described as fund holder, annuitant, private means, etc.
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Thank you for the explanations.
Fact 1: Elizabeth Sophia Humphries daughter of John Terry Humphries married George Gray in 1872 as a single woman. Her age was at odds with her known baptism date.
Fact 2: John Laing registered the birth of John Laing Humphries, son of Elizabeth Sarah Humphries in 1857. No father named.
Fact 3: John Humphries son of Elizabeth Sarah Humphries was baptised in March 1858. No father named. Elizabeth definitely still alive at this point and presumably would have given her name to the officiating minister. So unless he made a mistake, she was Elizabeth Sarah.
Fact 4: John Laing provided for John Laing Humphries, paid for his education (according to his will).
If John Laing made an earlier settlement on Elizabeth 'under the carpet' then why would he fairly openly acknowledge John Humphries' existence and pay for his education?
At the moment there is absolutely nothing to connect Elizabeth Sarah Humphries, mother of John Humphries b 1857, to Elizabeth Sophia Humphries who married in 1872. I think they are probably two different people.
Nell
I agree with this completely. All we know for certain is that Elizabeth Sarah Humphries/Humphreys was in Brighton 1857/1858 where son John was born/baptised. We don't know her age, where she was born, from these details.
John Laing was living in St. Marylebone, London in 1851 and in Brighton 1861 and we've no idea when the move to Brighton took place. Elizabeth may well have been a servant to John Laing in London and moved with the household to Brighton where she subsequently gave birth to John in 1857. Once 'care' for John had been organised with the Potters she probably returned to London (as she doesn't appear to be in Brighton in 1861).
I have another 'candidate' for Elizabeth Sarah Humphries which I won't mention right now as don't want to muddy the waters at this point.
The problem is the actual proof of any supposition we have. My gut feeling is that she was a young servant girl who was at some point in the household of John Laing in London and moved with them to Brighton. After John's birth and his future 'care' was arranged (no doubt by John Laing) she subsequently returned to London.
That's my thoughts right now.
Annette
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Interesting that when Ellen Elizabeth Potter was baptised in 1859, her parents were living in Grosvenor Street, the same street that Elizabeth Sarah Humphreys/Humphries gave as her address in 1858 when her son was baptised.
Might there be a connection between the Potter family and the Humphreys?
Nell
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I have tried, without success I must admit, to find any connection between all or any of these people prior to the birth of John Laing Humphries in 1857 or subsequently.
Frances Naomi Potter (ms Toogood) came from the Isle of Wight. We have been there and researched the Toogood family and no connection has been found. Frances married a Potter from Bramber, we presume they met when both were working at a house in West Sussex as they gave that address when married at East Grinstead. (Actually the wedding was at Forest Row nearby, July 17th 1856.) The house still exists. The Potters later moved to Brighton and then Ringmer. We felt there must have been a connection between these families but none found. Grosvenor Street was not a very salubrious area, later demolished under the 'slum clearance' scheme.
John Laing lived at another address in Brighton, at Powis Villas for a short while as he is listed in a local directory there before 61 Montpelier Road. I have a list of all servants in the Laing household, both London and Brighton. No luck there either.
I think I did trace the family of the other Humphrey girl at the Wallace school. In my copious notes somewhere, that's how I know they were not related. The Wallace school was at another address in Brighton before Montpelier Road. The Montpelier Road address, 'Belvedere' was built by a well-known Brighton clergyman for his sister Mary Ann Wagner to live in with their mother but they didn't ever live there so it was leased off to the Wallaces. Later becoming The Park Royal Hotel and demolished in the 1960s. Now a block of flats on the site. (See 'The Wagners of Brighton' 1983)
I would have thought that John Laing was too 'up-market' to have an affair with a servant girl. His family were farmers originally from Newton just South-East of Edinburgh although he was born in Kingston Jamaica in 1898 where his father had a coffee plantation. Father became ill so they returned to England where his father David Laing (sen) died in London. His younger brother, born after the father's death, was Reverend David Laing who was 'highly thought of' by the Bishop of London. Any descendants of that Laing family appear to have died out. Lots in Newton Kirkyard!
This does seem to be one of those never ending circles doesn't it!
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jonw65; Just re-read your earlier posting, The reference to Eling in Hampshire is of some sort-of interest as Elizabeth SOPHIA Humphries' later husband's family came from there. He was George GRAY born Eling Hants. See 1881 Census on findmypast.
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I get the feeling that whatever we say you are still going to go back to Elizabeth Sophia Humphries - fact being she was Elizabeth Sarah Humphries when son John born and Elizabeth Sarah when she had him baptised (she would have given this latter information herself).
I appreciate you have done a huge amount of research over the years but it seems to be you are trying to make pieces fit when they don't as Little Nell said earlier.
As to John Laing being too 'up-market' to have an affair with a servant girl. I'm sorry but this kind of thing happened all too frequently and usually the man would take no responsibility whatsoever and the woman would be turned off and returned from whence she came. I see that John Laing had just one surviving daughter born 1828 St Marylebone - to suddenly finding himself father of a son must have come as a shock. However, he decides to make provision for the child although I wonder if he would have if it had been a girl. We'll never know. The kind of circle he'd have moved in would involve well-bred ladies or female servants. Unfortunately, illegitimate children usually involved the latter.
You say you have a list of all servants of John Laing both in London and Brighton - how did you obtain this? We can see his servants in 1851 and 1861 from the census but not who came and went in between.
Whatever the truth actually is I think you need to completely rule out Elizabeth Sophia Humphries as John's mother.
Annette
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John Laing's daughter from his first wife married Admiral Sir Joseph Nias, so that was up-market!
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It is a shame that so far none of the very welcome responses on this site have advanced our search for my wife's Gt gt grandmother whether she be Elizabeth Sarah or Elizabeth Sophia. Unfortunately,... where anything is written down both spellings of the Humphries / Humphreys name were used in the 1850s. I suppose that spelling was less important then and phonetic spelling was used. On John Laing HUMPHRIES' birth certificate his name, as registered by the presumed father (John Laing) is spelt Humphries. On his baptism 28th March 1858, numbered in register 1224, nearly a year after his birth, it was spelt Humphreys when recorded presumably by his mother who is down as Elizabeth Sarah and address given only as Grosvenor Street, Brighton, and no number is recorded nor is her occupation. Unfortunately no records of the occupants of Grosvenor Street survive as these were only tenement houses and directories of the period did not bother to list the occupants.
I also, having spent an hour or so re-reading my copious notes last night am inclined to dismiss Elizabeth Sophia as we do know where she went to later but so far no death has been found for her so maybe she married again after George Gray died. If I have followed the right person she seems to have flitted about a bit, but we do know that she did actually exist.
So, returning to Elizabeth Sarah; We have not found any confirmed birth, marriage, or death so far under either spelling. Thanks to all who have responded so far. We are still waiting for that little breakthrough which might lead us to the right person. The main problem is that if she did not marry subsequently and have other children, no-one else is going to be looking for her!
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I'll mention now my candidate for Elizabeth Sarah Humphries.
Elizabeth Sarah Humphries born 29/5/1840, bp.2/10/1842 Hammersmith, dau. of James (cabinet maker) and Elizabeth. (So would only have been 17 when John Laing Humphries born).
In 1841 in Shoreditch with James now shown as Box Maker.
In 1851 family have moved to Newington where James now a Greengrocer.
In 1861 family still in Newington but dau. Elizabeth not with them. Possible entry for her as servant in Bethnal Green.
Elizabeth Sarah Humphries, dau. of James, fruiterer, married Thomas Humphries (yes, same surname), Chemist, son of John Humphries, tea dealer) on 26/7/1864 St. Saviour, Southwark.
In 1861 Thomas Humphries is in Marylebone (bc.1832 Southwark) as Chemist Assistant.
After marriage - zilch for either of them. Can only assume they emigrated somewhere soon after the marriage as no deaths, no sightings on census. They just disappear from UK records.
Annette
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Annette: I am not fixated on Elizabeth Sophia, I have an open mind on the whole thing! I had found the marriage you mention but had assumed it to be a double wedding, ie: a brother and sister getting married at the same time. I haven't applied for that certificate though. I couldn't find a birth for her either so thought it would be before 1837. However, by that time John Laing was already living at Powis Villas Brighton and I can't put that Elizabeth anywhere near there at the right time. Of course, I could be, and probably am wrong!
John Laing had two daughters one of whom died in infancy. He is buried at Horton in Bucks, (right under the flightpath for Heathrow!) together with his first wife and infant daughter as that is where his first wife came from. She was Lydia Whitefoord Bailey, (spelt Whiteford in the register but she signed it Whitefoord, / and sometimes with an e at the end) They married at St Michael's Horton on 6th January 1827 with consent of her mother Mary Bailey, widow. The witnesses were all relatives of one or the other family. John Laing's address is only given as 'St Mary parish in Kennington in the County of Surrey. Somewhere I'm sure I had the full address there and a later one in London where his daughter lived after her marriage. Strangely Lydia died at Tunbridge Wells not far from where we live. I haven't found out why she was there but taking the waters at TW Pantiles for various ailments was in vogue at the time.
Nell: I know what you mean about a servant girl getting in the wrong bed!
As you probably all realise, I've got paperwork concerning this coming out of my ears, but nothing for Elizabeth Sarah! That is why I decided to give it another 'push' now. Thanks to all. TCS.
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Elizabeth Sarah Humphries, dau. of James, fruiterer, married Thomas Humphries (yes, same surname), Chemist, son of John Humphries, tea dealer) on 26/7/1864 St. Saviour, Southwark.
After marriage - zilch for either of them. Can only assume they emigrated somewhere soon after the marriage as no deaths, no sightings on census.
Buried together at Rookwood Cemetery, Sydney
4 Nov 1887, Thomas Humphries, died 2 Nov, age 58
6 July 1925, Elizabeth Sarah Humphries, died 5 July, age 85
Death registrations in Petersham
For Thomas Humphries in 1887, father Thomas, mother Rachel
For Elizabeth S Humphries in 1925, father James, mother Elizabeth
Death notice for Thomas says he lived in Brighton Street, Petersham
Funeral notice for Thomas says he was a chemist of Newtown.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/236774571
Sydney Daily Telegraph, 6 July 1925
Deaths
HUMPHRIES.—July 5, 1925, at her residence, "Chiswick", 12 Hopetoun-street, Petersham, Elizabeth Sarah, relict of the late Thomas Humphries, aged 85 years.
By request, no flowers.
Scroll down
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245248915
And scroll further down for funeral notice.
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Funeral notice for Thomas says he was a chemist of Newtown.
Daughter
Baptism at St. Stephen's, Newtown, 4 March 1870
Born 5th February 1870
Alice Fanny
Parents Thomas + Elizabeth Sarah Humphries
Abode Newtown Road
Father a Chemist
What happened to Alice Fanny?
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Thomas Humphries left a will
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/219928937
Don't know about Elizabeth Sarah.
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Probate for an Alice Fanny Humphries of Petersham, near Sydney, died 28 Aug 1952
She was a spinster
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/220006760
Death reg of Alice Humphries (28/08/52) in Ashfield district
Father Thomas
Mother NK
No age given
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See also Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980
Which has Alice Fanny Humphries at 12 Hopetoun Street, Petersham.
Still there after Elizabeth Sarah died.
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Jonw & Annette; Many thanks for all that info which I will digest later, probably Monday as out tomorrow.
In the meantime I have been going through my copious notes on this lot.
John Laing Humphries (whose mother Elizabeth Sarah we are still looking for) was farmed out to live with the Potter family firstly in Brighton and later at Ringmer near Lewes. At Ringmer the Potters were living with one John BODY, a carpenter, whose wife had died in 1847 and his son William had died in 1856.
I have just found some notes I made years ago from which I see that a Richard BODY, a cabinet maker, and family lived at No 4 Grosvenor Street Brighton. The Potter family, (if I remember correctly) had also lived in Grosvenor Street before moving to Ringmer to live with John BODY.
Body is not a particularly common name so it can be presumed that these Bodys were related, maybe brothers?
NB: I think I previously mistakenly said that John Body was a 'Fly Operator'. No, that was Thomas Potter. Richard Body born1822 Brighton, John Body born 1823. Didn't note where.
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John Body of Ringmer died 1 Nov 1898, and left a will.
Executor Thomas Walter Potter, valet.
Have you got that?
I don't think we can be totally sure that Elizabeth Sarah was still around in Brighton when son John was baptized. It depends also on who she was, which we don't know.
Sometimes these "adoptions" were arranged very early on, and if John Laing was involved with that...
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No I don't have J Body's Will. He's in Ringmer churchyard as well as most of the Potters. Good Night! TCS.
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Hi
Well it might be worth getting, as they are only £1.50 at the moment
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/
Have a good night.
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Another Elizabeth Sarah to look at? :-\
This time Humphreys.
Just throwing it out here, do go into the one who went to Australia first, who looks to be a better candidate!
Baptism at Chiswick, 28 January 1835
Elizabeth Sarah
daughter of Thomas William & Catherine Elizabeth Humphreys
Abode Strand on the Green
Father a Lighterman.
Born 31st Jan.
Her marriage
30 March 1862, Holy Trinity, Twickenham
John Scott, full age, Bachelor, Gardener, residence Twickenham Common, father John Scott, Carman
+
Elizabeth Sarah Humphreys, full age, Spinster, residence Twickenham, father Thomas William Humphreys, Waterman.
Both signed.
1861 census is interesting, but in Twickenham (maybe she didn't go much further!)
Elizabeth S Humpreys (looks like that!) Serv, 26, Nurse, born Middlesex Chiswick.
Head is William Langford, 39, Solicitor, born Sussex Westham.
Wife is Sarah L Langford, 31, born St Vedast Cheapside
Children born Middlesex.
Two other servants, one born Sussex Brighton, one born Surrey Chobham.
So there are some Sussex connections, but probably William didn't have much to do with Sussex by then.
His daughter Maud's birth in London was though announced in the Sussex Advertiser, 29 April 1856.
Langford.—On Sunday morning, April 27, at 3, Sumner Place, Onslow Square, London, Mrs. William Langford, a daughter.
Maud was baptized at St James Westmister, 30 June 1856, and birth date and address confirmed.
Father William was a Solicitor, mum was Sarah Louisa.
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Thanks for that one.
Just a quick aside before we go out; My Gt gt Uncle William Samuel Sargeant was a boatbuilder at Strand-on-the-Green in late Victorian times. A pioneer in Electrically Propelled launches.
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jonw; I went through your posting re Elizabeth Sarah who went to Australia. Couldn't find any connection. HOWEVER, I have now read all my notes and see that I did have an Elizabeth Sarah who went to Australia and another one who went to Canada. I'm not sure if the Ozzie one is the same as yours and the Canada one didn't have any Brighton connections. But THANK YOU for all your work and suggestions.
Shame we weren't looking for one of my Sargeant family who had very strong connections to Chiswick, Twickenham and Kingston areas in 19th and 20th centuries! Only lost with the death of my father's cousin quite recently.
You mention the adoption of illegitimate children being 'arranged' in advance; Although John Laing provided quite well for the child he doesn't mention the mother. To me that has two explanations; He had made some settlement on her earlier, or she had found a husband and moved on leaving the child in the care of the Potter family which was financed by John Laing. It was probably all 'hushed up' at the time as John Laing's younger brother David was a clergyman, ALTHOUGH, he was known to have stayed at the Oriental Place address when visiting or preaching in Brighton. There are references to people visiting Brighton and where they stayed including David Laing.
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Good Evening to all,
I am still none the wiser with regard to Elizabeth Sarah Humphries mother of John Laing Humphries.
This is most unfortunate but I would like to say THANK YOU to all of you who have tried to assist me
in my quest to find her. We seem to be no further forward in spite of enquiries here and elsewhere!
TCS.