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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: kellogs on Wednesday 31 August 22 16:42 BST (UK)
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Hi :)
I was hoping some kind soul(or souls might be able to help).
I am conducting some research into Charles Robert EAGLES. He was born in 1832 in Tonbridge, Kent to parents William Barnfather EAGLES and Marianne CRISPE. They were quite a wealthy family.
I know that he arrives in Melbourne, Australia on the 19th October 1852, travelling on the 'City of Poonah', along with his brother Henry Frederick EAGLES. Under the column 'Profession or calling', Charles puts 'Miner' and Henry, 'Farmer'.
In 1854 he married Henrietta Diana VAIL in Victoria.
Their first son Charles Walter EAGLES is born in 1855 in Wakapuaka, Nelson, New Zealand.
I next find him on a Jury List, dated 1856 in Nelson, New Zealand. Occupation 'Gentleman'.
The family return to Victoria in August 1856 on the ship 'Sea Serpent'.
They have daughter Marianne c. 1856 in Rushworth, Victoria(haven't located her birth record, location info from her marriage certificate to Charles LATHAM in 1878, they return to London in 1882).
Isabella born in 1861, Wang, Victoria, Died 1868
Rosa born in 1864, Heathcote, Victoria, Died 1868
Lucy born in 1867, Richmond, Victoria.
On Marianne's marriage certificate he is listed as 'Agent'. He died in 1868 and is buried in Melbourne General Cemetary.
And thats all I have for him. Have I exhausted all online records for him? I will probably get his and his two young daughters death certificate to find out why they all died in the same year, but I am curious to know what he did when he was alive in Australia.
I found a few family notices concerning his brother Henry on Trove, but that was through a search with their father's name.
So any help or suggestions on how, if at all, I can flesh the bones out of this man after he arrives in Australia, and why he was briefly in New Zealand, would be hugely appreciated :)
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There is a family tree with him on and for 1854 occupation it says "spirit and wine merchant with brother Eagles Bros"
so that's a big clue and maybe something you can research further.
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Only 3 children listed on the tree - Isabella, Rosa, Lucy.
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Hi
Well thats a new one, will have to see what directories are online.
I had noticed Marianne's abscence from some online trees. Maybe its because her birth record is not as easy to locate. I have her marriage certificate which has both parents names on so was able to work back from that.
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No I can't see a birth for her either but as you have her marriage information she must belong.
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"In 1854 he married Henrietta Diana VAIL in Victoria."
What happened to Henrietta after 1868 when husband Charles Robert EAGLES died, and she was left with....at least one child?....... to support?
If Charles Robert EAGLES is a gentleman, and seemingly, involved in the wine business, you might expect to see him leave a Will?.. Do you see a Will anywhere?
VIC BDM
1115/1854 EAGLES Charles Robert marr. VAIL, Henrietta
2611/1878 EAGLES Marianne marr. LATHAM, Charles
Can you please list all the information on these two certificates.
The death certificate for Charles Robert EAGLES, died 1868, will be useful for your research.
It will be interesting to see what is recorded.
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The Argus 20 Jun 1854 p4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4794534?
On Tuesday, at St. James's Cathedral, Henry Frederick, eldest son of William Barnfather EAGLES, Esq., of Russell-square, London, to Amelia Fanny, eldest daughter of John Thomas MATTINGLEY, late of Brunswick Brewery, Reading, Berkshire.
The Age 27 May 1877 p3
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198307139?
EAGLES— On the 23rd May, at his residence Poplar House, Northcote, Henry Frederick, the be
loved husband of Amelia Fanny EAGLES, and son of William Barnfather EAGLES, of Havenside, St.
Leonards-on-Sea, Sussex, England.
Can you confirm that I am reading this correctly -
* Henry Frederick EAGLES, having arrived in Melbourne with brother Charles Robert EAGLES in 1852, is back in England to marry in 1854?
* In 1877, nine years after the death in Victoria, 1868, of Charles Robert EAGLES, there is a death notice in five newspapers in Victoria for death in England of his brother Henry Frederick EAGLES.
* Does five newspapers suggest that the EAGLES family in England, at 1877, do not have direct contact with the family in Victoria of Charles Robert EAGLES?
* Does five newspapers suggest that the death of Henry Frederick EAGLES, England 1877, is of interest to a wider readership than just the family of his brother, late Charles Robert EAGLES died Victoria 1868?
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Partnership with his brother Henry EAGLES was dissolved in July 1854. So, presumably, both were in Melbourne then
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4795594
There was a big sell up of goods from the premises a month after the dissolution. Aug 1854 Intesting items.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4796659 k
So it was just after this that your couple went to NZ
Sue
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Amelia Fanny, the wife of Henry Frederick EAGLES died aged 37 July 1st 1877.
She is memorialised on a family headstone at Melbourne General Cemetery.
Daughter of J T MATTINGLEY.
Also memorialised on the same headstone, her son aged 13 years, Montem James.
Death July 2nd 1877
Sue
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This Death notice for Amelia at her home in Northcote.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5927722
Likewise the death notice for Henry, which I take to be in Northcote, Melbourne has been given above.
A sad family story!
Sue
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Yes, death Victoria, not England.
VIC BDM death
5904/1877 EAGLES Henry Frederick parents Marion CRISP / William Barn
age 47 spouse MATTINGLEY, Amelia Fanny
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Amelia wrote a will weeks before her death bequeathing all to her several sons, one of whom is named Charles.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/4474955A-F53A-11E9-AE98-37E8B4998EDE?image=1
Sue
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Wivenhoe - When Charles died Henrietta was left with son Charles and remaining daughters, Marianne and Lucy. I haven't thought to see what happened to them, maybe not as easy as she is a woman but I cannot locate a will for either Charles or Henrietta. Henrietta died in 1877, again along with other members of the family, namely Henry and Amelia and one of their sons Montem, so even without getting the certificates my initial guess is one of the many dieseases of the day was the culprit for all these untimely deaths.
Haven't yet purchased Charles and Henrietta's marriage certificate but will do.
Marianne and Charles Latham married at the Victorian Free Church in Fitzroy, Victoria. Other than the details in the original post they were both of Stanley Street,Collingwood. She was an Assistant(Shop?) and he was a Cigar Maker.
It certainly is curious the glut of family notices concerning Henry and family and none for Charles.
Sue - Thanks for finding those notices about their business - I wonder what happened? Charles seems to have been left to pay the debts but that could have just been for ease I suppose.
I,ve just been reading about a large earthquake in New Zealand in 1855, I wonder if that had anything to do with their decision to return to Melbourne?
It does appear to be a sad story indeed, the brothers and Henrietta are buried together along with 4 of Henry's children in Melbourne cemetary. I can't find where Charles two children, Rosa and Isabella are buried though. :(
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I wonder why Charles put "miner" as his occupation in 1852? In the 1851 census at 31 Tavistock Place Tottenham Court with his family his occupation is "with an underwriter" (I think).
HO107/1494/750 pg23
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I wonder why Charles put "miner" as his occupation in 1852? In the 1851 census at 31 Tavistock Place Tottenham Court with his family his occupation is "with an underwriter" (I think).
HO107/1494/750 pg23
I have seen this kind of downplay of the occupation before on shipping records.
If assisted passage was sought, you needed to seem young, poorish and with an occupation that fitted with those characteristics.
Signs of affluence might disqualify you for govt immigration assistance.
Sue
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That would make sense, though they were certainly well off enough to pay for their own fares. One of their other brothers emigrated to the USA in the same year, ending up in Kentucky, becoming a Merchant. Quite the travellers!
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. I can't find where Charles two children, Rosa and Isabella are buried though. :(
The death certificates of the children will list where buried.
As they died at Heathcote, I would suggest you contact the secretary of Heathcote Cemetery Trust.
you can google the contact details. Only email or post.
There is not a headstone.
Sue
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Thanks Sue, will get on to them.
I finally purchased Charles' marriage and death certificates last night.
Charles and Henrietta married on the 19th April so not long before the dissolution of the partnership. He is a Wine and Spirit Merchant. They residence is South Yarra. They married in St Pauls Church and his brother Henry was one of the witnesses.
His death certificate says he died of Debility Exhaustion for 1 month, so nothing concrete. Has the childrens names on there with Rosa and Isabella already being deceased written by their names :(
His profession is Civil Service though so maybe thats another avenue I need to find a bit more about.
Have to say though I have been very impressed with the detail you get on Australian certificates. :)
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There are three rates book Victoria Entries of interest .
Charles EAGLES, a clerk, brick house , Johnston Street Collingwood in 1866 owned by Charles Cooke.
Henrietta EAGLES at Little Smith Street Collingwood in 1877. Owned by Andrew Wright
Charles EAGLES, (presumably the son) a tanner, at Little Smith Street Collingwood 1876 owned by Andrew Wright.
Sue
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Thanks for that Sue.
Came across some more newspaper death notices for brother Henrys children. Out of the ten children they had, only three made it to become adults but still nothing in the newspaper for Charles and his family.
Maybe Marianne saying that he was an 'Agent' on her marriage certificate, meant secret agent! ;D ;D
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Hi
I wonder if you would kindly type all details on the certificates.
The exact words from each column.
It does take time, I know, but sometimes tiny things reveal big things to fresh eyes, or a differing interpretation of value.
If some bit is illegible, snip, save, attach and post it in your reply.
It all seems a bit odd to me. Death by debility and exhaustion at 38 years. No mention of TB or prolonged chronic illness to cause it
Sue
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Not sure if you have this already - "Mr and Mrs Eagles, Miss Vail ..." travelling on Wild Irish Girl in NZ in 1855
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18550509.2.4
Modified to add:
When it arrived in Nelson, the passenger list has them as "Mr and Mrs Englis"
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NENZC18550512.2.3
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Not sure if you have this already - "Mr and Mrs Eagles, Miss Vail ..." travelling on Wild Irish Girl in NZ in 1855
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18550509.2.4
Modified to add:
When it arrived in Nelson, the passenger list has them as "Mr and Mrs Englis"
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NENZC18550512.2.3
Thanks, no, I hadn't got these entries. I had just last night located the passenger list, but reading these notices, I noticed they were with a Miss Vail. When Henrietta emigrated in 1853 she went with her sister Mary Ann, so this shows that possibly she had been living with them. I still haven.t ascertained what happened to her yet, but at least I know she was with them at this point.
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Sue - Death Cert.
When and where died -11th APRIL 1868 ADOLPH STREET, RICHMOND
Name, Surname, Rank or Profession - CHARLES ROBERT EAGLES, CIVIL SERVICE
Sex and age - MALE, 34 YRS
Cause of death, duration, medical attendant and when he last saw the deceased - DEBILITY EXHAUSTION FOR 1 MONTH CERTIFIED BY GEORGE SPEARMAN 10th APRIL 1868
Name and surname of Father and Mother with rank or profession - WILLIAM BARNFATHER EAGLES, GENTLEMAN, MARY ANN EAGLES FORMERLY CRISPE.
Signature, description and residence of informant - FRANK EAGLES, BROTHER, ADOPLH STREET, RICHMOND
Signature of deputy registrar, date and when registered - WILLIAM H LAYOE, 11th APRIL 1868, RICHMOND
Burial registered, when and where, undertaker - 13th APRIL 1868, MELBOURNE CEMETARY, CHARLES BUTT
Name and religion of minister and names of witnessess of burial - WITNESS JOSEPH CLOWES
Where born and how long in the Australian Colonies stating which - TUNBRIDGE, KENT, ENGLAND, ABOUT 15 YRS IN VICTORIA
If deceased was married, where and what age and to whom - MELBOURNE, VICTORIA, 28 YRS HENRIETTA VALE (MODIFIED IN THE RECORDS TO BE 21 YRS)
Issue, in order of birth, their names and ages - CHARLES, 12, MARY ANN, 7, ISABELLA, DECEASED, ROSA, DECEASED, LUCY, 1
One thing that has jumped out at me transcribing this is that the informant was his brother Frank. I had not realised that Frank had spent time in Australia. I wonder if he had come to visit knowing Charles was unwell or just happened to be in the country when he died. Will have to go and hunt him on the passenger lists now!
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Just thought, they spent really quite a short amount of time in New Zealand. Henrietta would have been pregnant when they got there as Charles was born in the August(maybe that was why her sister was with them, come to think of it). They left for Melbourne in August 1856.
Maybe he was seeing what money making opportunities were there. Or they just didn't like it there. :)
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Thanks for the details of the DC
Are you able to do the same for the marriage of the couple Charles and Henrietta?
Please include witnesses or snip if not legible.
Sue
ADDING
Have you details that there was a brother Frank?
Is that Francis, or are you seeing an abbreviation for Frederick who was in Victoria?
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ADDING
Have you details that there was a brother Frank?
Is that Francis, or are you seeing an abbreviation for Frederick who was in Victoria?
[/quote]
Yes he had a brother Frank. When I glanced over it yesterday I did think, oh they have just made a mistake on the certificate but having looked at it properly whilst transcribing, it does say Frank.
I checked through the passenger lists and a Frank Eagles arrived in Melbourne in 1864 and left for London in 1879.
This timeline works because he would be back in England to marry in 1880, and solves why I couldn't find him on the 1871 Census.
I wonder what he did for 14 yrs. Had an initial search and couldn't find on the indexes any indication that he had married or fathered any children over there.
Anyway, back to Charles, will transcribe that Marriage cert. ;D
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Marriage Cert.
When and where married - 19th APRIL 1854, ST PAULS CHURCH
Name and surname of the parties - CHARLES ROBERT EAGLES, HENRIETTA VAIL
Widow or widower - BATCHELOR, SPINSTER
Birthplace - TUNBRIDGE, KENT, WANDSWORTH
Rank or profession - WINE AND SPIRIT MERCHANT
Ages - BOTH 21
Residence - BOTH SOUTH YARRA
Usual - YES
Parents names - WILLIAM BARNFATHER EAGLES, MARIANNE CRISPE, THOMAS KNIGHT VAIL, MARY ANN BECK
Parents rank or profession - GENTLEMAN, CHEESEMONGER
BOTH SIGNED THEIR NAMES
Witnesses - HENRY FREDERICK EAGLES
MARY ANN VAIL
WALTER ? (will try and work out how to post this surname :))
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If you have not already done so-
Look at "Type here to search" extreme left corner of your computer screen.
Type snipping tool.
This is very easy to use. ;D
Open your problem document and use the tool to frame (ie snip round) the text in question.
Choose the save to files option across the top of snip screen. click.
Go to files and see it filed as 'capture' which you rename as whatever.
It is now ready for you to attach to your post on R'chat by using attachments and other options which you can see on your reply window.
Hope this helps.
Sue
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Hi Sue
Have tried and tried to add my clipped image to this post but it just will not so I've given up with it! Technology is not my friend today :)
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It certainly can be frustrating. but if you have saved it in your computer files as JPEG it should attach when you click choose file (which opens for you to browse your own files) find and choose it
A small quirk is that it does not appear n the window your typing in, only after you press post.
But
Anyhow....Do you need details of Henrietta's arrival in Australia etc. ?
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Hi Sue
I have Henrietta and her sister's passenger list, thank you. I will see if I can find out what happened to her sister Mary Ann though.
Another try at attaching the snippet :)
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It looks like Palmer to me.
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If it is PALMER, then maybe this is the association.. This one was a wine and spirit merchant like the Eagle Bros.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7139522
Sue
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Hi :)
I know that he arrives in Melbourne, Australia on the 19th October 1852, travelling on the 'City of Poonah', along with his brother Henry Frederick EAGLES. Under the column 'Profession or calling', Charles puts 'Miner' and Henry, 'Farmer'.
In 1854 he married Henrietta Diana VAIL in Victoria.
Their first son Charles Walter EAGLES is born in 1855 in Wakapuaka, Nelson, New Zealand.
I next find him on a Jury List, dated 1856 in Nelson, New Zealand. Occupation 'Gentleman'.
The family return to Victoria in August 1856 on the ship 'Sea Serpent'.
Hi Sue
I have Henrietta and her sister's passenger list, thank you. I will see if I can find out what happened to her sister Mary Ann though.
Another try at attaching the snippet :)
I think Marian may have married and settled in New Zealand.
We have a record that one Miss VAIL was traveling with the EAGLES couple.
1856/1510 Marion VAIL to James Lee HODGSON.
She died in 1932. Obituary
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HAWST19320402.2.20
He died much earlier in 1896
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/HNS18960320.2.7
If you have an ancestry sub, you can see some electoral roll entries for her and a headstone picture.
Although the spelling is sometimes Marion, it is usually Marian.
Her advanced age at death is very close to tally with the birthdate of Henrietta's sister Marrianne
This scenario could tie in well with the EAGLES couple visiting and voting around Nelson NZ at the time of the mid 1850's. Seeing her well settled and returning to Australia.
Sue
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I agree - Walter Palmer does look like a possible as the other witness.
Sue - you.ve solved what happened to Mary Ann. I was a bit unsure because of the middle name but then I remembered that I hadn't actually located her baptism before now. So using her middle name. Bingo! She was baptised in 1846 in Essex, England. Name: Marianne Elizabeth VAIL!
So she did stay on in New Zealand with her new husband.
Having another look at Henrietta and Marianne's passenger list record I had remembered that Henrietta had said that she was going to work for her cousin Edward, but I can't work out who Marianne is going to work for.
Any ideas?
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I saw this a few days ago and I think it says
W. Hospital, Flemington.
there is still today large public hospitals in Flemington Melbourne , including The Royal Womens Hospital.
So maybe that's it.
Frederick 's father and Henrietta's father were brothers. so cousins.
I don't think it says going to work for him.. It says.....Gone with......
Sue
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Thanks Sue - will look into that. :)