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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: cazpro77 on Monday 29 August 22 15:19 BST (UK)
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hi
im stuck on a brickwall,
i hoping you might help please
all i have is Arthur Roberts date of birth 26th march 1901
found in 1939 living in stepney east london
thank you for reading this message
from caz
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Was he married in 1939 and what occupation did he have?
That birthdate is just before the 1901 census so you can look for a tiny baby of that name on the census. Appreciate he has a common name but the fact he was just born may help narrow him down.
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There are only 5 birth entries on GRO indexes Mar quarter 1901 Arthur ROBERTS and 8 birth entries with a middle name
These are the Arthur Roberts births on GRO indexes with no middle name
Barnsley mmn Roberts
Biggleswade mmn Endersby
Brighton mmn Stevens
Bury mmn Greet
Nottingham mmn Fletcher
Have you found his marriage?
I can only find one marriage June Quarter 1949 for an Arthur Roberts to a Mary
it's registered in Litchfield her surname is BULL???
Have you tried the 1921 census with his occupation?
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thank you for your quick reply
in 1939 Arthur was living with Mary Roberts
in the 1939 register
his occupation general carman
married
altho as yet haven't found the marriage between Mary and Arthur
ty
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Roberts has been crossed out and Prosser written - this could be a clue to Mary, a remarriage perhaps?
I don't know what the notes mean but it says 25.6.49 NR 230 AVA
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I did a free search on the 1921 census with Arthur Roberts born 1901 occ carman only one result
Arthur Roberts 1901 born Langford, Bedfordshire, England Parish Langford Registration District Biggleswade, including Arthur, there is an Ephraim & Rose and 5 other persons listed
This is the 1901 census
Arthur Roberts
Age: 3 Weeks
Relation to Head: Son
Father: Ephraim Roberts age 21, bricklayers labourer
Mother: Rose Roberts age 21
Birth Place: Langford, Bedfordshire
Registration district: Biggleswade
Piece: 1498
Folio: 120
Page number: 7
I think you can cross off this Arthur Roberts from your list as I think he marries a Gladys died in Biggleswade 1982
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Roberts has been crossed out and Prosser written - this could be a clue to Mary, a remarriage perhaps?
I don't know what the notes mean but it says 25.6.49 NR 230 AVA
AVA London Stepney
I saw this re: 1939 Register
'CR230' indicates that a name change took place due to marriage or divorce.
'NR230' indicates that it took place due to Deed Poll.
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That's interesting to know thanks.
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Is this Mary's death entry as Prosser :-\
Mary PROSSER
Birth 2 May 1904
Dec qtr. 1969 Stepney vol 5E page 393
and might this be her marriage ???
James Prosser
Jun 1929 Bethnal Green vol 1c page 259
Spouse: Mary Allwinkle
Adding just in case it might be relevant
There's this birth entry
ALDWINKLE, MARY mmn FEENEY
GRO Reference: 1904 J Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 378
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hi
thank you
i do no that mary (nee aldwinkle )married james prosser 1929
they had 1 girl born 1940
then on the 1939 register Mary listed as married
Arthur Roberts the same but can't find Arthur and Marys marriage if at all ?
or married to others
mary goes onto have have 1 son 1949
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It may be just coincidence but there is an Ellen Roberts at the 26 Chicksand Street address in the 1930 and 1931 electoral registers
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sorry crossed posted
mary anne prosser nee aldwinkle born 2nd may 1904
died 21st dec 1969
daughter is informant
james prosser died 16th august 1978
he had 1 son with ethel born 1938
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Thank you
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they had 1 girl born 1940
then on the 1939 register Mary listed as married
Sorry is this the same Mary married to James Prosser ??? where was he in 1939 if his wife was with Arthur? Who was the father of the girl born 1940?
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The 1929 marriage is under Mary Allwinkle
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in 1939 Arthur was living with Mary Roberts
1939 Register (free index)
26 Chicksand Street, Brick Lane (but not on the electoral register)
Arthur Roberts
Mary Roberts (Prosser)
32 Turin Street, Bethnal Green (as per electoral register)
James Prosser
Ethel M Prosser
1945 - 1949 electoral registers
25 Charlotte de Rothschild Dwellings, Spitalfields
Jane Aldwinckle
Mary Roberts
Here's a poser
Also in 1949
44 Davis Mansions, New Goulston Street (no occupants there on the 1948 ER)
Harry Freeman
Mary Prosser
1950 only Jane Aldwinckle at Charlotte de Rothschild Dwellings
1950, 1951, Mary Prosser and Harry Freeman still at 44 Davis Mansions
1952 Harry gone, only Mary Prosser at 44 Davis Mansions
i do no that mary (nee aldwinkle )married james prosser 1929
they had 1 girl born 1940
But Arthur Roberts the father?
mary goes onto have have 1 son 1949
Harry Freeman the father?
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The daughter referred to appears on the electorals with mum Mary Prosser at 44 Davis Mansions a decade later.
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I'm not quite clear on the link here - how do we know that Mary Roberts is Mary Allwinkle from the basic info on the 1939?
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We have the name Prosser as well as Roberts for Mary in 1939
Plus the date of birth, 2 May 1904, matches the one on the death reg of Mary Prosser in Stepney in 1969.
I guess Caz has any other missing links!
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And the 1940 birth registration in Stepney, mother Aldwinckle.
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Thank you, am blown away with the replies
Im very grateful,
Mary aldwinkle/prosser was my nan, my father is her son born to mary 1949
My aunt is mary daughter born 1940
Originally we was looking fpr arthur prosser,but seeing the 1939 registar
Seen arthur roberts
I been told this morning that arthur iis possibly james prosser (snr) brothers ?
A family member done dna and shared the resuls with me at 6am
Suggesting that , arthur roberts was arthur prosser
I dont no x
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Mary aldwinkle/prosser was my nan, my father is her son born to mary 1949
My aunt is mary daughter born 1940
Originally we was looking fpr arthur prosser,but seeing the 1939 registar
Seen arthur roberts
I been told this morning that arthur iis possibly james prosser (snr) brothers ?
A family member done dna and shared the resuls with me at 6am. Suggesting that , arthur roberts was arthur prosser
On your father's 1949 birth certificate is his father named as James PROSSER?
Do you know the name of James PROSSER father/parents? If so, have you checked the censuses to see if James Prosser has a brother named Arthur?
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Hi yes
We have james snr and junior birth certificates
James snr parents and grand parents
On my dads cert says arthur prosser fishmonger
On my parents marrige cert says arthur prosser deceased
Thank you, im very grateful for your help
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On my dads cert says arthur prosser fishmonger
Who registered the birth and what address was given?
We have james snr and junior birth certificates
Sorry lots of questions
On the 1929 m/c for James Prosser, what was his occupation, his address?
Could you name the mother, father's occupation and addresses given on b/c for James Snr./Jnr.?
Maybe a different couple not sure whether this has been posted apologies if I'm duplicating
London Electoral Register years 1930/31/32/34/40
Address 40 Mulberry Street
James & Mary PROSSER
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Hi
I don't mind questions,
On my dads birth cert rothchilds buildings ,informant my nan mary prosser
Father arthur prosser same address fishmonger,
James prosser snr mc to mary
States his occupation old rag dealer father fredrick john prosser 7 have look place Bethnal green
Her adresses states 25 rothchilds buildings stepney 2nd april 1929
Witness annie aldwinkle (mary sister ) and robert winston unsure who he was
James prosser son
father james prosser snr
Mother ethel may prosser nee Thornton 1938
86 laviston rd hackney
Father occupation tailor
Thank u xx
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James prosser snr mc to mary
States his occupation old rag dealer
father fredrick john prosser 7 have look place Bethnal green
Her adresses states 25 rothchilds buildings stepney 2nd april 1929
Witness annie aldwinkle (mary sister ) and robert winston unsure who he was
What was Frederick John Prosser's occupation?
The reason I ask is there's a Frederick John Prosser occ cabinet maker living 7 Havelock Place Bethnal Green in 1911 his wife Elizabeth Betsy Prosser but he doesn't marry Elizabeth until 1914 ??? He has a son named Frederick John Prosser born c 1887 occ cabinet maker - edit to add also son named JAMES
1911c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWGR-BQZ
Frederick John Prosser , widower, occ cabinet maker
Father George, occ chair carver
marries 12 July 1914 Elizabeth Betsy PATER
address 7 Havelock Place
EDIT to add
Frederick John Prosser (SNR's) first marriage 1 August 1885 to Matilda Caroline Critchfield
father George, chair carver
Frederick John Prosser (JNR.) Cabinet maker, 14 Crondall St.,
married 30 Nov 1913 Ellen BOLT father Frederick John Prosser, cabinet maker
Frederick John Prosser
Death 22 Mar 1918 France
Rank: Private
Regiment: 8th RW Kent
Regimental Number: 3073
Widow Ellen
Frederick John Prosser Age: 27
Birth Place: Bow, Middlesex, cabinet maker
Military Date: 1914
Regimental Number: 3073
Regiment Name: Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment
Number of Images: 37
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Personal property send to widow Mrs Ellen Prosser 18 Haberdasher Street, East End
Father of Soldier Frederick John Prosser address 7 Havelock Place
Full Blood siblings
Philip John Prosser age 28, 273A Green Street Bethnal Green
Matilda Prosser age 31, 7 Havelock Place
marriage
Matilda Maud Prosser 36, 7 Havelock Place
father Frederick John Prosser, cabinet maker
married 25 Dec 1924 James Wilkins Taunton
edit to add
PROSSER, MATILDA MAUD mmn CRITCHFIELD
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 549
PROSSER, FREDERICK JOHN mmn CRITCHFIELD
GRO Reference: 1886 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 211
Philip John Prosser, soldier, 273A Green St
Father Frederick John, cabinet maker married 5 Sept 1914 Louisa Jane Newton
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for info. you may already have these but just in case you don't here's a list of baptisms parents named Frederick John Prosser & Elizabeth Betsy
Elizabeth Betsy Proser
Baptism : 22 Apr 1900 St James the Great, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
Father: Frederick John Proser Mother: Elizabeth Betsy
Gives his occ SHOE maker address 4 Mace St
PROSSER, ELIZABETH BETSY mmn PATER
GRO Reference: 1900 J Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 206
Henry Francis Prosser
Birth 15th Aug
Baptism 25 Aug 1901 St James the Great, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
Father: Frederick John Prosser Mother: Elizabeth Betsy
Occ cabinet maker address 4 Mace St
JAMES Prosser
Birth 17th Sept.
Baptism 11 Oct 1903 St James the Great, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
Father: Frederick John Prosser Mother: Elizabeth Betsy
Occ cabinet maker address 4 Mace St
PROSSER, JAMES mmn PATER
GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN Volume 01C Page 202
Beatrice May Prosser
Birth 16 Jul 1909
Baptism 22 Aug 1909 St James the Less, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
Father: Frederick John Prosser Mother: Elizabeth Betsy
Occ cabinet maker , address 7 Havelock Place
Rosina Florence Prosser
Birth 5 Jan 1911
Baptism 5 Feb 1911 St James the Less, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
Father: Frederick John Prosser Mother: Elizabeth Betsy
Occ cabinet maker address 7 Havelock Place
Ada Jessie Prosser
Birth 10 Nov 1912
Baptism 1 Dec 1912 St James the Less, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
Father: Frederick John Prosser Mother: Elizabeth Betsy
Occ cabinet maker address 7 Havelock Place
William James Prosser
Birth 31 Aug 1914
Baptism 27 Nov 1914 St James the Less, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
Father: Frederick John Prosser Mother: Elizabeth Betsy
Occ cabinet maker address 7 Havelock Place
Elizabeth Prosser Age: 7
Birth 2 Apr 1900
Admission 26 Aug 1907
School: Cranbrook Road School
No father’s name given address 7 Havelock Place
Eleanor Beatrice Prosser
Birth16 Nov
Baptism 23 Dec 1917 St James the Less, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
Father: Frederick John Prosser Mother: Elizabeth Betsy
Occ cabinet maker address 7 Havelock Place
1929 Electoral Register
Address 7 Havelock Place
Elizabeth Betsy Prosser
Frederick John Prosser
Henry Francis Prosser
James Prosser
Robert John Prosser
Mary FERN
1901 census Piece: 292 Folio: 59 Page number: 48
4 Mace Street Bethnal Green
Frederick J Prosser 36 Shoreditch cabinet maker
Elizabeth B Prosser wife 25
Frederick J son 14 Bethnal Green, errand boy
Matilda M 12 Bow
Philip G 10 Bethnal Green
George T 2 Bethnal Green
Elizabeth B 1 Bethnal Green
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hi lady hawk
thank you for this information i appreciate it x
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hi
i have tried finding James prosser born 1938 have his birth certificate ,but cant find anything after that
i am however searching military records and newspapers, that's my last ideas
regarding Arthur Roberts ,i
can't anything a few records that don't fit dates wise for example marriage to a lady ,in north east England 1950
both huge brick walls i don't no how to proceed
so far myself, and had help we have been through decades ,alternative spellings,written to those with prosser or Roberts surnames on several family history sites,plus social media sites,
could i ask please,for ideas or suggestions
many thanks for reading and any help x
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hi
i
no
w have both my aunts birth cert says James prosser as father 1940
my dads birth cert says Arthur prosser as father 1949
i have checked for any siblings cos my aunt age 9 years older,we wondered if any othet kids born in the 9 year gap we searched
couldn't find any
we welcome any ideas or suggestions
thanks for reading this from caz prosser
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w have both my aunts birth cert says James prosser as father 1940
my dads birth cert says Arthur prosser as father 1949
i have checked for any siblings cos my aunt age 9 years older,we wondered if any othet kids born in the 9 year gap we searched
couldn't find any
we welcome any ideas or suggestions
thanks for reading this from caz prosser
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hi i'm still trying to find info on Arthur Roberts /Arthur prosser
i contacted people on here and social media and emails etc searched for years and
no new information
thank you for reading and your suggestions on where and what to do next
from caz
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Hi Caz
Sorry we haven't been able to help further.
There are a few problems.
One is we can't identify Arthur Roberts, not even with the date of birth he gave in 1939. He should be on the 1901 census, about 5 days old? Possibly unnamed, but obviously male!
Or else he gave the wrong year.
Two is there is no sign after his appearance in 1939 (in fact that is his only sighting!)
He is not on the electoral registers with Mary after the war. So was he still around? Was Arthur really the father of the son that Mary had? Occupation of the father (allegedly still Prosser!) has changed. Arthur was a carman in 1939 (changing from that is OK), but to fishmonger?
Have you got anywhere with Harry Freeman, who Mary seems to have moved in with around 1949? Then after a couple of years Harry vanishes as well.
John
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hi john
many thanks for your replies
could Arthur prosser be Arthur Roberts noted name down wrong ?
on my dads birth cert says Arthur prosser father fishmonger 1949
i have never found a marriage between Arthur Roberts or Arthur prosser to Mary my Nan
should i search harry freeman ? but have no information on him so no date of birth
thank you x
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Hi
There was a Harry Freeman living close by, but he seems to be a different person.
So we know even less about Harry than we do about Arthur!
Could he have been the fishmonger? :-\
It is a very difficult problem.
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cazpro77
Have you found James Prosser b1903 on 1921c? He doesn't appear to be with his family.
Have you looked for Arthur Roberts b1901 on the 1921 census?
For example there is this entry for an Arthur Roberts was he married to Edna ???
You would need to view the original census for further details
Arthur Roberts 1901 Hackney, London
Edna Roberts 1902 Tottenham, London
A & E seem to be with Harriet Hancock b1841 Amersham Buckinghamshire
living St Olave, Bermondsey London, Surrey
There was a Harry Freeman living close by, but he seems to be a different person.
So we know even less about Harry than we do about Arthur!
Could he have been the fishmonger? :-\
It is a very difficult problem.
It certainly is jonWw65 ???
Free index search 1921 census Harry Freeman occ fishmonger but result shows middle name ???
Harry Charles Freeman b1887 Leyton Essex
Others on transcript
Edith Mary b1887 Islington
Maurice Albert b1911 Leyton Essex
living Merton Croydon
1939 London Electoral Register
Henry Charles, Edith Mary, Maurice Albert & Vera Ellen Freeman
Address 20 Crestbrook Avenue
In 1939 Henry's occ shell fish salesman, he’s with his family as per London Electoral Register
Maurice Freeman Admission Age: 5 Birth 19 Sep 1911
Admission 16 Apr 1917 School: Peckham Rye School
Residence Poor Law Union: Whorlton Road
Father: Henry Freeman
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Thank you so much,very helpful
X
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Harry Charles Freeman b1887 Leyton Essex
Others on transcript
Edith Mary b1887 Islington
Maurice Albert b1911 Leyton Essex
living Merton Croydon
This man appears on electoral registers with his family through to the 60's at least, so would seem to be unrelated.
Debra :)
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Hi thank you for your reply
Harry lived with my nan for a while but perhaps as a frirnd or lodger
We wasnt sure
My dad did say he been told arthur proseer fishmonger named on my dads birth cert, that arthur had stolen fish fron work
i assuming fish market ,Spitalfields or the like
That was the reson arthur didnt see my dad
Dont no if thats true or just something my dad grew up being told
But yet i searched court and newspapers nothing about arthur
We no about james prosser who married my nan have all his siblings etc
We no james snr died cos we have his certs
Have his son james prosser birth cert my dsds half sibling ,my aunts father (james prosser on aunts birth cert as father but arthur prosser named on my dads birth cert
Researching james jnr
Can't find arthur prosser or Arthur roberts
It was suggested to me,to not serach just east londonzaearch further so i will do that today
Please feel free to ask me questions i can tell u what we no ,
All i no fact wise is in this thread
Thank you for reading this x
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Please feel free to ask me questions i can tell u what we no
cazpro77
Not that this helps finding anything further about Arthur Roberts from 1939 Register but can I please ask if you can list all the addresses that you have so I can see if I can cross reference any address with names on London Electoral Register.
You gave following info.
1969
Mary Prosser died (daughter was the informant)
Address ?
1978
James Prosser died
Address ?
1949 birth of son (your father)
his father Arthur Prosser occ fishmonger
Address ?
1940 birth of daughter (your Aunt)
her father James Prosser occupation ?
Address?
1938 son born (mmn Thornton)
his father James Prosser, occ tailor
address 86 Laviston Road Hackney
1939
Arthur Robert, occ carman & Mary Roberts (Prosser)
address 36 Chicksand Street
1939
James Prosser & Ethel Prosser (Thornton)
address 32 Turin Street Bethnal Green (as per LER)
1929 marriage 2nd April
James Prosser occ ?
address 7 Havelock Place
Mary Allwinkle
address 25 Rothschild Buildings Stepney, Witness sister Annie Aldwinkle
London Electoral Register
List of other addresses in order after
26 Chicksand Street
College Buildings (Wentworth Street),
Commercial Road,
Commercial Street,
Davis Mansions (New Goulston Street) - see jonw65 reply below
1964
Mary Prosser & J A Prosser
address 93 Coventry Cross, Towers Hamlet
(daughter J A Prosser mmn Aldwinckle born 1940)
What was the occupation of James Prosser from the 1940 birth certificate of your Aunt
and
What was the occupation of James Prosser from the 1929 marriage certificate to Mary Allwinkle?
apologies if you've posted these details and I have overlooked them on your thread.
It may be just coincidence but there is an Ellen Roberts at the 26 Chicksand Street address in the 1930 and 1931 electoral registers
1939 Register (free index)
26 Chicksand Street, Brick Lane (but not on the electoral register)
Arthur Roberts
Mary Roberts (Prosser)
32 Turin Street, Bethnal Green (as per electoral register)
James Prosser
Ethel M Prosser
1945 - 1949 electoral registers
25 Charlotte de Rothschild Dwellings, Spitalfields
Jane Aldwinckle
Mary Roberts
Here's a poser
Also in 1949
44 Davis Mansions, New Goulston Street (no occupants there on the 1948 ER)
Harry Freeman
Mary Prosser
1950 only Jane Aldwinckle at Charlotte de Rothschild Dwellings
1950, 1951, Mary Prosser and Harry Freeman still at 44 Davis Mansions
1952 Harry gone, only Mary Prosser at 44 Davis Mansions
as jonw65 mentioned Arthur & Mary Roberts are not on 1939 LER ??? There is a family with surname BROWN who incidentally are on the same 1939 register entry as Arthur & Mary at 26 Chicksand Street - have not named them fully on LER as I've not looked into the family.
London Electoral Register
1939
26 Chicksand Street
S (male), K (female) , M (male) & S (female) BROWN
H, J & Coleman
D Driscoll
I also found entries on LER for the same BROWN family at 26 Chicksand Street from 1927 ShaunJ posted Ellen Roberts on the Electoral Register at that address 1930-1931.
Ellen Roberts is not there with the Brown's in year 1927 or from 1934 onwards but she is with the same Brown family years 1932 & 1933.
1933
26 Chicksand Street
S, K & H Brown
L & A Levene
Ellen ROBERTS
1932
26 Chicksand Street
I, S & K Brown
H & J Kolman
L & A Levene
Ellen ROBERTS
1931
26 Chicksand Street
I Brown
H & J Kolman
Ellen ROBERTS
1930
26 Chicksand Street
S & K Brown
M & F Fox
H Kolman
Ellen ROBERTS
So is Ellen Roberts a relation of Arthur Roberts and if she is, is she his
mother, wife, sister or aunt ??? Unfortunately there is not a lot to work with other than her name and the address ???
You could try searching the 1901/1911/1921 census to see if you can find an Ellen Roberts with an Arthur Roberts born c1901
added for info.
Years 1919,22,23,24,26, 27, (1928/29/30 not found), 1931,32,34,35
25 Charlotte de Rothschild Dwellings
Edward (sr.), Edward (jnr.), Jane Aldwinkle
No Edward Jnr. Years 1931-35
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For info. some information in the papers mentioning Chicksand
23 July 1937 - East End News and London Shipping Chronicle
Accomodation for 635 People at Stepney L.C.C. And Chicksand Street Area
It was reported to the L.C.C. Tuesday that working drawings are being prepared for dwellings to be erected on the Chicksand Street area, Stepney. The scheme of development provides for erection of 3 blocks, five storeys in height, comprising 127 dwellings, containing 423 rooms and providing accommodation for 635 persons.
It was reported that the site for an extension of block 2 of dwellings at Shipwright estate (M?land Street Side), Stepney is clear of buildings and it is anticipated that the site for Block 3 of dwellings Chicksand Streets area, Stepney will also be available within a very short time.
Block 3 on Chicksand Streets area will comprise
4 two-room, 10 three-room and 10 four-room dwellings making a total of 24 dwellings
containing 78 rooms and providing accommodation for 177 persons
whilst remaining portion of Block 2 at Shipwright estate will comprise 2 two-room, 17 three-room, 6 four-room and 2 five-room dwellings, making a total of 30 dwellings ........
The costs of a room for the superstructures are -
Block 3 on Chicksand street area, £199;
Block 2 (part) at Shipwright estate, £113
and the total cost of a room are £172 and £169 respectively.
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i do no that mary (nee aldwinkle )married james prosser 1929
they had 1 girl born 1940
mary goes onto have have 1 son 1949
Have his son james prosser birth cert my dsds half sibling ,my aunts father (james prosser on aunts birth cert as father but arthur prosser named on my dads birth cert
I think it is highly unlikely that your father and his sister are related to James PROSSER at all.
James and Mary married in 1929 and had no registered children. By 1938 James is having a child with Ethel THORNTON - they are together in 1939 and electoral registers show that they stayed together for some time.
In September 1939 Mary is also in another relationship with Arthur and calling herself Mary ROBERTS. The following year she has a daughter. She uses the surname ROBERTS until July 1949 when she reverts to her married surname of PROSSER (see 1939 Register). This is the same time that she had her son, 9 years after the birth of the daughter.
I think you are making too much of the surname PROSSER being on the birth certificates. Once she married James then that was her surname and she was probably going to some lengths to not have the children registered as illegitimate by also giving the father the surname of PROSSER.
Debra :)
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Thank you
Your replies have been very helpful they are truely appreciated thank you x