RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: LyndseyB on Friday 19 August 22 16:05 BST (UK)
-
I am returning to my research after a very long break and I feel like a beginner!
I would like to find the 2nd marriage of my Gt Grandfather, Benjamin Freeman, but I have very little information to go on.
He was born in Meesden, Hertfordshire in c1869
He is on the 1921 census as being married to 'Amy' (who was born in Langley, Essex in 1885) and living in Battersea SW11.
He was on the 1911 census with my Gt Grandmother and their children, living in Edmonton, (London/Middlesex).
I know nothing of him between 1911 and 1921 other than he left the family home after Gt Grandmother died in 1912 and the family did not see him again.
Is there anybody that can give me some advice?
Many thanks
-
You can check on the Free BMD index for a marriage to start with as you have his name and the first name of his wife.
Keep in mind though they may not have actually ever married just lived together.
Do you know when he passed away? If after 1939 you can look for him on the 1939 register.
-
Do you have his exact date of birth in case he is traceable in 1939 register
-
Are they in Bognor in 1939 :-\. His year of birth 1870
-
Maybe :-\
Death Mar qtr 1945
Freeman Benjamin age 74
Horsham reg dist 2b 547
Wrong one - probate mentions Eliza Blanche Freeman - they are together in 1939 at Partridge Green
-
For the sake of completeness, birth registered in Royston District June Quarter 1869 mother's maiden name Robinson.
-
Thank you for all your replies.
I have checked on Free BMD and there are no matches. It is quite possible that they were not married - I have never been able to find evidence of his marriage to Gt Grandma either.
I do not have his exact dob, but do have his baptism date (7th March 1869) which I got from the Meesden Parish Registers & yes, his mothers maiden name was Jane Robinson. Would it help if I obtained a copy of his birth certificate?
I do not have any information on his death.
-
FREEMAN, BENJAMIN Mother ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in ROYSTON Volume 03A Page 250
Spouse Ann Brett
Father James Freeman
Mother Jane Robinson
Birth 7 Mar 1869 Meesden
1901 & 1911
Benjamin Freeman 41 Ann Freeman 45
Frederick 21 Beatrice 19 Grace 14
FREEMAN, ANN 46
GRO Reference: 1912 M Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 627
When Grace Edith Freeman married 31 May 1925 father Benjamin a Scaffolder.
No second marriage that I can see but 3 possible deaths in the greater London area.
Deaths Dec 1944
Freeman Benjamin 75 Chelsea 1a 284
Deaths Mar 1945
Freeman Benjamin 74 Horsham 2b 547
Deaths Jun 1952
FREEMAN Benjamin 82 Lewisham 5d 92
Colin
-
I think this may be them in 1939, birth date wrong but the age difference similar to 1921.
His occupation was on Fredericks baptism so that may be correct.
Benjamin Freeman 10 May 1870 - Baptism date maybe?
Amy Freeman 10 Aug 1887
Marital Status: Married
Address: Sunny Bank, Shripney
Residence Place: Chichester, Sussex, England
Occupation: Builders Labourer - Retired
Colin
-
Electoral registers show:
Benjamin and Amy Freeman living at 130 Wickersley Road, Battersea, Wandsworth
From 1918 to 1938.
The registers not showing before 1918.
Others at the house are mainly Edith Newell who is living there with husband and family at 1901 447/84/29
Edith has several children including Emily but not Amy.
Added
Emily is living with her mother and the Freemand on one register so Amy is not her.
-
They are not there in 1939.
-
Thank you again to everyone who has provided information.
Despite drawing a blank on a marriage to Amy, I have learnt more about Benjamin’s later years in the last few hours than I ever dreamt possible as it looks like they were the Benjamin and Amy in Shripney in 1939 since they were no longer at the address in Wickersley Road after 1938.
ColC – do you still think that Benjamin’s death could be one of the three you listed in view of this?
-
Hard to say but the difficulty is no deaths in Sussex, so did they move to get away from the south coast during the war?
Colin
-
Rosie eliminated the Horsham death in Reply #4, (just in case you were getting desperate and going to start throwing money at death certificates).
-
Thanks for pointing that out bbart! So that reduces it to two possibilities - years ago I looked, unsuccessfully, for his death in North London (not knowing that he had left the area) so I can discard the possibility that he returned to North London.
-
being married to 'Amy' (who was born in Langley, Essex in 1885)
Sorry I might have missed something but where did the birth place for Amy come from please?
-
being married to 'Amy' (who was born in Langley, Essex in 1885)
Sorry I might have missed something but where did the birth place for Amy come from please?
1921 census, I think.
-
Address: Sunny Bank, Shripney
Residence Place: Chichester, Sussex, England
Occupation: Builders Labourer - Retired
Before I go down a rabbit hole with some newspaper items, Shripney is the name of the road, but is Sunny Bank a name of a single house? As in, just Mrs. Giles house?
Edited to add snip from want ads (in the remote possibility it is the Freemans' wanting the caravan)
-
Electoral registers show:
Benjamin and Amy Freeman living at 130 Wickersley Road, Battersea, Wandsworth
From 1918 to 1938.
Amy Freeman at 130 Wickersley Road, Battersea, from 1945 all the way up to 1965 (no more available!) No Benjamin.
Possible death
Sep 1973 Wandsworth 5e 1011
Freeman, Amy
d-o-b 10 August 1889
-
Possible death
Sep 1973 Wandsworth 5e 1011
Hoping it is her, the death cert should (theoretically!) give Amy's maiden name and place of birth.
Though I wouldn't bet on it (It depends on the knowledge of the informant)
-
Amy Freeman at 130 Wickersley Road, Battersea, from 1945 all the way up to 1965 (no more available!) No Benjamin.
So this death, in ColC's list of possibilities times out well:
Deaths Dec 1944
Freeman Benjamin 75 Chelsea 1a 284
-
Wandsworth Burial Search
https://enable.imagestor.co.uk/search/publicsearch2.aspx
Benjamin Freeman, burial 8 Nov 1944
Amy Freeman, burial 6 Sep 1973
-
Wandsworth Burial Search
https://enable.imagestor.co.uk/search/publicsearch2.aspx
Benjamin Freeman, burial 8 Nov 1944
Amy Freeman, burial 6 Sep 1973
Well done!
*gives a round of applause*
-
Well, thanks, though I think all the hard work was done already!
-
Great finds :)
-
Still no marriages though. >:(
I was wondering if he had a prior marriage that was preventing him from marrying (in the few years he would have time to do so), so have been slowly sifting through the FreeBMD entries, and have eliminated the more hopeful ones, with the exception of a 1900 marriage to Sarah Jones in St. Giles. I would doubt this one as being him as it is far too close to the birth of his first child, but who knows!?
Perhaps a religious conflict? Or he was just trying to live up to his surname, and remain a Free Man. ::)
-
:) Benjamin was already married and left his family - see opening post.
-
:) Benjamin was already married and left his family - see opening post.
Thank goodness you posted that!!! I had meant to set the end date for 1890...not 1900. ::)
Now I can quit searching for my nemesis, Sarah Jones!
-
Thank you for all the information that has come in overnight.
I confirm that I got Amy’s birth place as being Langley from the 1921 census record.
My guess is the reason there are no more entries for 130 Wickersley Road after 1965 is because the houses in that part of the street were demolished. Wickersley Road was a lot longer than it is now.
I think my next step is to order the death certificates for Benjamin Freeman in 1944 and Amy Freeman in 1973 and I will report back when I have got them.
I am particularly interested in who Amy was because the story that my Nan (Benjamin’s daughter Grace) told me as a child was that after Gt Grandma (Ann Brett) died in 1912 Benjamin went off with another woman (I think she said it was a cousin – I can’t be sure, it was a long time ago – but definitely a relation) and they never saw him again. So there is a bit of a mystery there and it would be great to be able to solve it after all this time!
-
Can I just throw this lady into the pot for other's to dismiss if possible.
Known facts first.
Name "Amy"
1921 born c 1885 Langley, believe this is Abbots Langley, Hertfordshire (Watford reg district)
1939 dob 10.8.1887
Death 10.8.1973
CORKE, AMY mmn ORMROD
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in WATFORD Volume 03A Page 548
Found 1891 aged 3
Found 1901 aged 13
Found 1911 aged 21
Married Arthur Narroway mq 1913 Watford
Cannot find anything on either Arthur or Amy after 1913 marriage. No Narroway/Corke births that I can find.
John
-
Arthur Narroway died 11 April 1917, in France.
Private, 6th Battalion, Bedfordshire Regiment.
Reg. No. 31516
Soldiers' Effects has Amy, widow, as sole legatee.
-
Arthur Narroway can be found as the "Adopted son" of James & Mary E Marroway in 1911 Bushey, Herts, born c1887 Shepherd's Bush, London.
& as son in 1901 census still with James & Mary and born c1887 Shepherd's Bush
UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
Casualties
Arthur Narroway
Birth
Bushey, Herts
John
-
Arthur Narroway is in the World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards on ancestry.
His widow Amy does not appear to be in their index, which seems unusual to me.
-
I know we have moved away from Amy but this is for info only.
Arthur Narroway was an "Adopted son" of James & Mary E.
Believe born as Hardby Yetta ( could be Harry?)
1891 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:W8FL-BT2
John
-
I have to burst your bubble...
Kathleen Amy Narroway, widow, daughter of Herbert James Corke, plasterer, marries Gardner Pennington in St. Giles, 22 Feb 1919.
-
Perhaps the lady wasn't originally called Amy.
Not many registered with that name, as first or second, in Saffron Walden RD, 1885-90 (presuming that her Langley, Essex, place of birth is right in 1921). And only one or two of those were registered in the Sep quarter.
-
After we see him in the 1911 census, Benjamin Freeman stays on the electoral register at 5 Beamish Road, Edmonton, for 1912 and 1913.
But on the 1914 register he has moved, and is now at 308 Hertford Road, successive from 5 Beamish.
He is in the local directory for 1913-14 at that address as well.
But, in the following year, Benjamin is there no more.
-
bbart, bubbles have to be burst to get to the true evidence. Good find.
John
-
I can confirm that it definitely says Langley, Essex as the birth place of Amy on the 1921 census record. Langley is very close to Meesden. A couple of Benjamin’s older brothers married girls from Langley.
It is very strange jonw65 that you should remark that Amy might not have been her true name because I have been thinking about that all day….
Benjamin had a niece called Ada Freeman who was the daughter of his older brother David (born 1851 in Meesde) and his wife Eliza Law (born 1853 in Langley).
On the 1901 census Ada is a Cook and Domestic Servant in Cambridge and in 1904 she gave birth to an illegitimate son who she called Baron Moore in St Albans Workhouse.
Baron Moore’s daughter Audrey told me that he was brought up by his Grandparents David & Eliza and they had told him that Ada had died in childbirth. However, it was Ada was registered Baron Moore’s birth (I have seen the Workhouse registry for myself in Hertford Archives) and I could not find a death for her either.
I could not find Ada on either the 1911 or the 1921 census records.
I know there would never be a way to prove it but do you think Ada could be Amy?
-
I think we need to also keep in mind that whoever it was that Benjamin ran off with, is not necessarily Amy. Things may have gone sour with the "mystery cousin", and Amy came along afterwards.
-
You may get lucky with Amy's death certificate. I'm sure that we all are keeping our fingers crossed on that.
If not, you have that 10 August birth date. It's a pity her year of birth moves around a bit.
There have been similar cases on here where a mystery woman has been identified, I think Amy will be too, eventually.
-
Hopefully so and I appreciate all the help that has been given.
I did forget to mention that Ada was born about 1884 so would have been of a similar age to Amy.
-
Lyndsey, was the years/months (of age) filled out for Amy on the 1921? (You may have said it already, apologies if you have).
-
hi bbart
Yes, it says 35 years and 10 months.
-
Without reading through all the posts again, whoever registered Amy's death did at least know her day and month of birth so may have known her maiden name or possibly a previous marriage name if there was one.
John
-
That would be really good news. The certificates have been ordered and are due to be despatched on 26th.
-
Fingers crossed.
-
Hi all
I have now received the death certificates I ordered and they are for the correct Benjamin and Amy Freeman so thank you all for your help in pointing me in the right direction.
The information on them is as follows:
Benjamin Freeman
When & where died: 3rd November 1944, St Stephen’s Hospital
Age: 75 years
Address: 130 Wickersley Road, Battersea
Occupation: Scaffolder (Retired)
Cause of death: 1a, Pyelitis & Cystitis
b, Prostatic Enlargement (Simple)
Details of informant: A Freeman, Widow of diseased, Present at death, 130 Wickersley Road, SW11
Amy Freeman
Date & place of death: 13th August 1973, Bolingbroke Hospital, Battersea
Place & date of birth: 10th August 1889, Hertfordshire
Maiden name of woman who has married – Blank
Occupation & usual address: Widow of Benjamin Freeman (Scaffolder), 130 Wickersley Road, SW11
Name of informant: Winifred May Fussey
Qualification: Causing the body to be buried
Usual address: 43 Freedom Street, SW11
Cause of death: 1a, Myocardial Infart
b, Bronchopneumonia
I would very much appreciate it if you could offer advice on how I can find out more about Amy and also how to find out where they may be buried?
Many thanks
-
At this point, it might be worth it to order a PDF of Ada's birth registration from the GRO to see if her birthday was Aug 10th.
Amy was getting younger over the years, so the year can't be counted on. I'm guessing that her death info was taken from the hospital admissions, so it could have been Amy now saying she was born in Herts.
Ada vanishes, Amy appears, and then there's that family story....
FREEMAN, ADA LAW
GRO Reference: 1884 S Quarter in ROYSTON Volume 03A Page 434
-
Thanks bbart.
A very logical suggestion, and have done so. I will be sure to let you know.
I have been able to locate both Benjamin & Amy's resting place (together) in Morden Cemetery this afternoon and hope to go and visit it.
Without all the help I have received from this Forum it would not have been possible so thank you again.
-
I now know that Ada could not have been Amy.
Ada's birth details are that she was born on 16th July 1884 in Meesden (Hertfordshire) and her birth registered on 27th August 1884.
What (if anything) can be done to try and find out who Amy was? I appreciate there is very little information to go on.
-
Do we think Amy was from Herts or from Essex? :-\
Sadly the informant seems to be unrelated.
-
Having studied the writing on Amy's death certificate it looks like the informant was the person who filled in the death certificate and therefore wasn't personally connected to her.
I would imagine that Amy would have been more likely to have come from Essex (Langley) as stated by Benjamin on the 1921 census as he would have had more personal knowledge of her origins?
-
Well, I guess hoping it was Ada was too much to hope for...
It is just a guessing game over the info....for example, was there no maiden name because she was a Freeman, or was she unable to supply an answer.
Perhaps the next step should be trying to get hold of the burial record for Amy. Someone had to take care of her burial/finances/house. It would at least give another surname (hopefully her family) to work with.
When I looked up Morden Cemetery, this is what is listed as their website:
https://www.nes-crematorium.org.uk/ There is a contact phone number; I didn't see an email address, but really didn't look around the site.
Do you know if 130 Wickersley Road is a private residence? They lived there a long time, so possibly owned it.... is there public access to house history that the name of whoever sold it on her behalf could be learned?
-
Yes bbart, I was disappointed. It would have tied things up nicely and it would have been lovely to be able to tell Ada's granddaughter that I had found her grandma.
Re. your suggestions, I will see what I can find out.
Many thanks.
-
I am afraid I have hit a brick wall.
Morden Cemetery say they only have the death information for Benjamin and Amy on their burial records.
130 Wickersley Road no longer exists. The road is much shorter now as much of it was demolished as part of the Slum Clearance. It has been replaced by what looks like council housing.
The only scrap of information I managed to find on Google was an excerpt from a book written by someone whose childhood home was in Wickersley Road in the 1950's in which he mentions they were tenants of Wandsworth Council.
I am open to all other suggestions if anyone has any!
-
Benjamin had a niece called Ada Freeman who was the daughter of his older brother David (born 1851 in Meesden) and his wife Eliza Law (born 1853 in Langley).
It's all very odd.
Meesden and Langley are so near to each other.
And Benjamin had been down in Edmonton for such a long time.
-
Possible in free index to 1911 census? :-\
Wembley, Middlesex
Annie Freeman Servant Single 26, born Meesden Green
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4Z-FPT
Original does not give a county of birth.
Was there an Annie from Meesden? Not finding one!
-
1891 in Meesden
Schedule 10, The Green - Farm...Edward Walton, Farmer
Schedule 11, Do. Cottage...David Freeman, Ag Lab
Is that Meesden Green? Ada born there?
-
Original does not give a county of birth.
The clerk with his red ink pen was in no doubt!
1911 census birthplace codes
310 Hertfordshire
-
1891 in Meesden
Schedule 10, The Green - Farm...Edward Walton, Farmer
Schedule 11, Do. Cottage...David Freeman, Ag Lab
Is that Meesden Green? Ada born there?
In 1901, providing David hasn't moved, his "address" was Meesden Green.
In 1901 Ada was in Grantchester, Cambridgeshire as a servant to Richard Assheton. Her age is given as 17, so approx. 1884.
Piece: 1527
Folio: 41
Page number: 29
Household schedule number: 198
-
I wonder if we should be looking into the families of the two gals from Langley, Essex that married into the Freeman family. Possibly they had much younger siblings?
-
If Ada was born 16th July 1884, then she should have been age 6 in the 1891 census, and 16 in 1901.
Instead of 7 and 17.
So you could say that the age for "Annie" in 1911 is more accurate!
-
it would have been lovely to be able to tell Ada's granddaughter that I had found her grandma.
Ada has a granddaughter.... if you can't post the name of Ada's child here, can you private message it to jonw65 and myself? It would give us another avenue to pursue.
Edit : never mind! Just reread reply #38.
-
Thank you all for your replies. I shall attempt to reply to all the points raised.
Yes, Benjamin was in Edmonton a long time, but he was not the only Freeman to move there from Meesden. His brother’s William, Robert, Frederick as well as his only sister, Sarah, also moved to Edmonton. So when he left to go south of the river he was leaving a lot of family behind.
Of the brothers who remained in Meesden - David married Eliza Law (b.1853 Langley) and Joseph married Mary Selina Abrams (I think that should be Abrahams) (b. c1861 Langley) and I have looked at the siblings of both wives as suggested –
Eliza was the daughter of Aaron & Jane Law and the only female siblings I could find for her were:
Ellen (b. 1856)
Harriet (b. c1861 Langley)
Rebecca (b. c1866 Langley).
Mary Selina was the daughter William & Tryphena Abrams (Abrahams) and the only female siblings I could find for her were:
Celia (b. c1863 Langley)
Florence (b. c1865 Langley)
Agnes H (b. c1878 Clavering)
I know there is a big gap between Florence & Agnes H but I could not find the family on the 1891 census.
About 15 years ago I went to both Meesden Parish Church and Hertford Archives to look at their Meesden records and have never seen a birth record for an Annie Freeman in either so it does look as if “Annie” is the missing Ada! However, I have not been able to find her under that name in the 1921 census. Perhaps you could give me some tips on how I can widen my search?
Once again thank you all.
-
I know there is a big gap between Florence & Agnes H but I could not find the family on the 1891 census.
It looks like they are still in Clavering, but Tryphena is being called "Hannah"
They have the right sons with them, but now with 3 grandchildren of which I cannot make out their surname. Ancestry has transcribed the grandchildren as surname Tofte, which may or may not be correct.
The youngest grandchild is an Annie, just to tantalize us!
District 3, Clavering, Essex
If you are using ancestry.co.uk this should take you there:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/19139178:6598
-
John, Kate and Annie Tofts are all shown in the GRO Index with mother’s maiden name Abraham.
A Florence Abram married a Walter Tofts in December Q 1883 in Royston Registration District.
I think Walter died in 1888 and in 1892 Florence married John Tofts in the Saffron Walden Registration district. The couple had Violet May 1896 (mother’s maiden name Abraham) and Olive Rosa in 1899 registered Bishop Stortford Maiden name Abrams
According to the 1901 census Florence nee Abram or Abraham was born in Langley about 1865
-
Thanks Gibel.
It appears Walter Tofts died in 1890, and in 1892 Florence remarried to a John Tofts.
And sadly in regards to daughter Kate, there is this:
Grantham Journal 12 March 1904
Sad Fatality
A verdict of "Accidental death" was returned on Saturday, at an inquest on Kate Elizabeth Tofts, aged eighteen. the deceased and her fiancee were being driven by her step-father, Mr. John Tofts, of the Catherine Wheel Inn, Albury, to Bishop Stortford station, when the horse shied at a stationary motorcar. All were thrown out, and rendered unconscious, and Miss Tofts succumbed to concussion of the brain.
-
What a sad story and what a small world. I have just been looking at pictures of the Catherine Wheel and I have been there!
Pre-Covid a small group of us Freeman descendants would meet up to have a wander around Meesden Church graveyard and then get a bite to eat , which got increasingly difficult as so many of the country pubs are closing.
The name Tofts rings a bell. I think there may have been Tofts in Meesden at some point as I think I may have seen some Toft headstones in the graveyard there.
-
Hi All
In #53 bbart asked me if No.130 Wickersley Road was a private house and I replied that it had been demolished. However, I have now seen Wickersley Road on a map dated 1950 and No.130 is still standing. It was renumbered as No.2 when the area was redeveloped - one of the few houses in that road that escaped demolition.
Therefore, could someone please advise me on how to find out if there is house history for that address and if so, how I may be able to gain access to it (as suggested by bbart) in the hope that maybe it will lead me to find out more about Benjamin's 'wife' Amy.
Many thanks in advance.
Many thanks
-
Shripney is an area not just a road. We used to ride the horses through there
-
I’m just looking at this family to resolve some information with my Robinson great grandmother Martha.
I have certificates for her marriage to Henry Phillips on 20 November 1864. The certificate does not mention a father for Martha only a birth in Meesden. Her mother appears to be Jane Robinson who married James Freeman, it is this link that I want to verify. The marriage to James Freeman was 25 April 1846 in Royston. On the 1851 census record there is an entry with the freemans that has Emily & Martha Robinson noted with their father William Robinson and Martha is noted as ‘niece’ so I am trying to find Martha’s mother assuming Jane is Williams sister ?
Any help would be very appreciated. Tasha
-
In 1851 1707 /40/28
Relationships are to the head of the household so William is described as father in law to James Freeman.
The girls are described as nieces to James.
1841 443 /3/1
No relationships in this census
William, Jane and Emily are together plus Joseph, 15 yrs.
There are other Robinsons on the same page who may be related.
-
You could purchase Martha’s birth certificate to check for her mother.
You can purchase a digital copy for £3.00
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp