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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: osip on Wednesday 10 August 22 21:05 BST (UK)
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With only limited family information how do I go about finding out further about my g.grandfather WILLIAM RICHARD CLARK/E b1876 who married ANNIE COOK in Liverpool. His father was a JAMES CHRISTOPHER CLARK/E ? many thanks.
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You just have to sit down and go through the Irish birth registrations for William Clarke, between, say, 1870 and 1880. There are about 235, and they are available free online at irishgenealogy.ie Look for father James, with the correct occupation, which you should have from William's marriage.
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A second method of approach is to use English census information. Do any mention a specific place of birth in Ireland?
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Censuses show his birth as Liverpool :-\
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Depending on which ever service you have access to, for example Ancestry, the best thing to do is
a) look at census records and see what information those give about where William Richard Clarke was born.
b) look for marriage records, such as banns which might give further information. In Williams case, I found banns that gave his fathers name.
I did have a quick look and built a simple tree, based on that information. If I've got the right person, it does seem that William was born in Liverpool, as others have said, but that both his parents were born in Ireland.
I can share more if you want, but I wasn't sure if you just wanted to do it yourself.
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Born in Liverpool!
So OP is wasting our time. Very kind of him/her.
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I think maybe it's a mistake? Perhaps family legend was that he came from Ireland, when it was actually his parents. I can see how that might have happened.
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I can see that. Perhaps that’s what osip meant.
We omitted to welcome you too, osip. :)
I tried looking for him in births and earlier censuses but it didn’t match up so that’s good Stanwix that you are on to something. :)
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If it turns out that the Clarke family had Irish origins, Irish Genealogy Toolkit is an introduction to Irish family history. Among advice it gives is to gather as much information as possible about the person/family in the country where they settled before starting the Irish part of your research.
http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/
After reading the introduction, select "Genealogy" tab for topics "Getting started", "Next steps" &c.
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well yes, I was always led to believe that William did indeed come from Ireland. But now I know different and that his father, my gg grandfather James Christopher, came from Ireland. Sorry.
I have extensive knowledge of my Welsh and English background and thought it was time to try and find out about my Irish background. There aren't any family around now to help me and when I asked in the past people were only vague and knew very little themselves.
So yes sorry again if I misled anyone. I was also told in my youth that I was related to Captain Cook through the Cook side of my family. I always took great pride in bragging this point in school. It was only very much later in my life that I discovered he had no direct descendants!
I will follow the advice above, many thanks, and any more info you could share about James I would be very grateful.
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I haven’t found them yet and was hoping you had a bit more info. I’ll have another look.
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GRO https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
1875 September quarter West Derby
William Richard Clark with mother’s name Welsh.
There is a birth for Andrew Alfred Clark in 1878 mmn Welsh
(Maybe a death in 1880)
I can’t yet see a likely one with father James in censuses
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There is a marriage in 1876, Liverpool
James Christopher Clark, widower, and Eliza Price, spinster.
He is a Mariner so that fits.
I can’t find any births though nor can I see them in censuses.
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This info fits in with notes I made many years ago. I came across Eliza but didn't know her maiden name. And that James was a mariner. In my notes I also have that William was a seaman too.
And this all stems from my grandmother Susannah Clark b1909 who was the daughter of William and Annie Clark. maiden name Cook. (which made me related to the famous Captain James Cook, NOT!)
The maiden name Welsh hasn't cropped up before. So should I assume now that James arrived from Ireland and married Eliza Price? Was she English then I wonder?
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With regard to J C Clark, on his marriage he is living in Parliament St and his father is James Clark, Land Surveyor.
Eliza is living in Brook Street. Her father is Patrick, a Farmer.
I can’t see them in censuses though.
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I can find some records that might fit, but this person comes from Scotland, not Ireland. So I have no idea if I'm onto the right track or not. :-\ ???
So we have James Christopher Clarke, listed as seaman, deceased, on his sons marriage banns in 1897, in Liverpool.
In 1891, there is a James Clarke, Marine Engineer, living in Litherland, West Derby, a wife called Elizabeth and daughter and a bunch of children, some born in Liverpool, including a William who is 12 years old.
ED, Institution or Vessel 3
Neighbors View others on page
Piece 2984
Folio 70
In 1881 he seems to be at sea, there is a census record for Scotland to that effect.
County Ships In European Ports
Address Bh Queen 1540 Glasgow
Occupation 1st Engineer
ED BL Queen
Household schedule number 456a
Line 20
Roll cssct1881_338
In 1871 he seems to be at home. A steamship engineer.
Registration district West Derby
Sub-registration district Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel 96
Household schedule number 171
Piece 3825
Folio 88
Page number 29
I haven't found him so far in 1861.
In 1851, he seems to be living with his mother in Scotland.
ED 20
Page 19
Household schedule number 79
Line 6
Roll CSSCT1851_57
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I think he had two wives.
Second wife is Elizabeth Price.
I think his first wife was also an Elizabeth or Eliza and that he must have married her around 1869, which is when the first child I can find for them is recorded.
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I can find some records that might fit, but this person comes from Scotland, not Ireland. So I have no idea if I'm onto the right track or not. :-\ ???
I think that couple are James CLARKE and Elizabeth SIMPSON who married in Edinburgh in 1867.
In 1871 they are in West Derby with two daughters.
Elizabeth Jane CLARKE b. 1868 Edinburgh
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQS6-GYP
CLARK, ANN
Mother's maiden surname: SIMPSON
GRO Reference: 1870 S Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 417
In 1881 still in West Derby with three more children.
CLARK, MARGARET
Mother's maiden surname: SIMPSON
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 457
CLARK, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SIMPSON
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 435
CLARK, EDITH
Mother's maiden surname: SIMPSON
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 35
James Christopher CLARKE and Eliza PRICE are a different couple.
Debra :)
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There are trees for Clark/Simpson but as they were Scotland, I thought I would wait for the Irish ones that Stanwix had found.
The names William Richard and James Christopher don’t fit easily, particularly when there is that WR birth and J C marriage.
William son of Clark/Simpson is in 1901 3449/122/43 with his mother Elizabeth and possibly marries in 1905.
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The birthdate of William in 1939 is 1875.
It fits with the birth of that William Richard in 1875 with mmn Welsh and I was quite hopeful until I saw the burial of William Richard Clarke aged 3 yrs in 1878. :-\
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There are trees for Clark/Simpson but as they were Scotland, I thought I would wait for the Irish ones that Stanwix had found.
Sorry that was my fault. I thought I had found something, because I thought the marriage banns read 'painter' not 'mariner'. When I realised I had that wrong, my Irish connection fell apart, because that person had 'painter' as their profession.
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Difficult isn’t it.
I have tried to look through 1875 Irish births here but couldn’t see anything
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rrn/
William could be illegitimate and have invented a father, perhaps.
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With what has so far been discovered, would the wife of JAMES CLARK, ELIZA (ELIZABETH) have the maiden name PRICE or WELSH?
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There is a marriage to Eliza Price but, if I recall it is after the birthdate of William.
I think William Richard with mother Welsh died in 1878 - I posted earlier.
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Has anyone been able to find a baptism for Anne Cook? Just as part of trying to backfill info?
I haven't. The closest one I have been able to find is a Julia Ann Cook, baptised 25th August 1878 in Liverpool, father James Cook, mother Julia. Father's profession, Joiner.
I wonder if she was just known as Ann, due to her mother's name being Julia?
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I'm wondering if this is Eliza Price on the 1871 census.
Age 30
Single
Born in Ireland
Lodger
Living with a family who seem to have a tailoring business. Also has an illegitimate son called James Price, born 1865. 1864 according to baptism record.
ED, institution, or vessel 28
Household schedule number 20
Piece 3798
Folio 108
Page number 4
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I think I have accidentally found James Christopher's first marriage. He is just James, a mariner, father James a surveyor. He married Maria HAY in Liverpool in 1869, batchelor and spinster, both of Brook Street, both full age, her father is James HAY, a shoemaker. Witnesses are John EAGAN? and Catherine KEHOE. James signed his name this time.
This child appears to be theirs...
CLARKE, JAMES
Mother's maiden surname: HAY
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 112
He was baptised at St Mary's Catholic Church, Liverpool, and mother's surname is recorded as HAYES.
I was wondering if William was Eliza's child and he used the CLARKE surname.
Debra :)
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That's a great point actually. That could be what happened.
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Interesting Debra :)
I had tried looking for William as Price but nothing then - more incentive this time.
The address is good too -Eliza ‘s residence on marriage.
Where are they in 1881?
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There are 2 James Clark/es b 1869/70 who are inmates in 1881 - Wigan and Kirkdale.
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In Catholic baptisms, besides James 1869, there is Robert Christopher Clark, born December 25th 1873, son of James and Maria (Hay). Godparents are James and Ann MacDevitt.
Other baptisms on the page have an address but not this one. ::)
There is a death later in the year for the poor child.
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I think I have accidentally found James Christopher's first marriage. He is just James, a mariner, father James a surveyor. He married Maria HAY in Liverpool in 1869, batchelor and spinster, both of Brook Street, both full age, her father is James HAY, a shoemaker. Witnesses are John EAGAN? and Catherine KEHOE. James signed his name this time.
This child appears to be theirs...
CLARKE, JAMES
Mother's maiden surname: HAY
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 112
He was baptised at St Mary's Catholic Church, Liverpool, and mother's surname is recorded as HAYES.
Debra :)
Just rechecking - the mother’s name has been transcribed as Hayes but the page shows Hay.
There is a note in Latin which indicates, I think, that the child was baptised at home as he was in danger of dying - ‘domi imminens periculum’ (or similar).
There is a Catholic burial at Ford Cemetery 7th August 1870
James Clarke, 15 months, 81 Dundas Street Bootle - no indication of family though.
However in 1871, there is a Patrick And Honora Clark living there so looks unlikely to be the same James.
It is frustrating that we can’t find William - or James Christopher.
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I still havn't managed to gain any ground with my investigation but have been intrigued by a comment my late mother made many years ago about her Clark family having connections with 'famous mills'. In Ireland there is the countries oldest fabric mills founded by a William Clark in 1736. And in Scotland there is a James Clark (1747-1829) that started a weavers business which eventually developed into a large well known company. Anchor Mills? Seedhill Mills? Is there a possible way forward in finding out if there are any connections between these and my g.grandfather William Richard Clark (1876) ?