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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: DeLeonardis.Swinbank on Wednesday 03 August 22 22:55 BST (UK)
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I am new to the site, but have been doing genealogy research for years.
My maternal grandmother never knew who her father was. I hoped, though she passed away and had no siblings, my mother's DNA (& my own) would be enough to break the brick walls.
Maternal Grandmother: May Hardy
B: 8 July 1930 in Bishop Auckland, County Durham, UK (probably Witton Park)
M: 19 March 1955 to Raymond Swinbank (1929-1990)
D: 22 March 2009 in Bishop Auckland
May Hardy's Mother (Timeline): Harriet Hardy
Birth: 11 September 1912 in Firtree, County Durham
Conception: Approx Oct 1929 (September-December)
May's Birth: July 1930
Marriage: 1931 to Daniel Aldworth (1910-1980)
Child #2: Daniel Aldworth (1932-2015)
Death: 1952 in West Auckland, County Durham from a brain aneurysm
It is very unlikely that Harriet Hardy's husband, Daniel Aldworth, was May's father. (I'd honestly bet my money on impossible, but will stick with not probable) May was raised by her grandparents John Thomas Hardy (1891-1957) and Emily Thornton (1891-1956) with her aunts and uncles in Witton Park. When Harriet left with her husband, May stayed, but she did know her mother was Harriet. [Daniel Aldworth, May's half sibling, passed away in 2015 and never had children]
DNA Tests have been taken through 23andMe and Ancestry, both our DNA is uploaded to GED match, MyHeritage & ftDNA. Based on my sleuthing and research of DNA matches it seems my mother matches a few people 2x higher than she should (as do I). With weeding out the DNA matches it seems to be through May Hardy's Grandfather John Thomas Hardy's (1891-1957) side of the tree.
I manage the DNA for my parents and paternal grandparents, but my mother truly has the least amount of close matches, besides me, it starts with "extended family".
I'll share a few examples from my mother's shared DNA with matches
Ancestry DNA(Unknown Relations):
MG 145 cM 2% (unknown relation - responded once, is adopted, knows nothing, doesn't answer now)
LR 118 cM 2% (unknown relation - shared match to MG, has messaging disabled, no information to search them or contact or tree)
RB 112 cM 2% (unknown relation - shared match to MG & LR, has messaging disabled, no information to search them or contact or tree)
MyHeritage DNA(MRCA= John Thomas Hardy & Emily Thornton):
MH 853.8cM 12% (Known 1C1R) | 445.3 cM to Me
VH 842.5cM 11.9% (Known 1C1R) | 491.8 cM to Me
AW (son of MH) 428.3 cM (known 2C) | 250.4 cM to Me
AR (niece of MH) 426.1 cM (known 2C) | 162.1 cM to Me
23andMe DNA:
JS 208 cM 2.79% (research confirms as 2C1R: MRCA= John Thomas Hardy & Emily Thornton)
PE 335 cM 4.49% (research confirms as 3C: MRCA=George Hardy & Susannah "Hannah" Howe*, parents of John Thomas Hardy )
GF 147cM 1.96% (research confirms as 3C: MRCA=William Thornton & Harriet Henfrey, parents of Emily Thornton)
I'm sorry I don't know all the ways to edit this as I don't use forums ever and it isn't "short & sweet", but I'm hoping that the length will have those uninterested or unable to help just skip it faster and not waste their time asking things I could have left out.
I'm not sure if I am allowed to share or not but, if I am, I do have a facebook page for my genealogy research (I don't update much) but do see messages faster. I'll wait before I link it as I do not want to break a rule.
THANK YOU!
Michelle DeLeonardis
daughter of Lynn Swinbank
daughter of May Hardy
daughter of Harriet Hardy
daughter of John Thomas Hardy & Emily Thornton
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As you have found DNA can throw up as many more questions than what they answer.
You say known to the 1C1R relationship and yet the level of shared DNA does not equate as it a 97% probability that the relationship is a 1C. So yes I would tentatively agree that endogamy may play a part in the results and hence your tree needs to be as wide and as accurate as it can be for the last six or seven generations.
With your DNA results on the My Heritage website you could look in the Tools and use the chromosome browser to see the detail of the matches.
Uploading your DNA to Gedmatch may also yield more results and by subscribing on a month at a time basis to their tier one tools and by watching the tutorials on the site you can gain a better understanding of using DNA to its max. Watching the Gedmatch tutorials will help in using the My Heritage tools.
There is no magic wand, its a hard slog that will get results.
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Hi there,
I’m interested to know what progress you might have made on this.
I have the same problem with a ‘brick wall’ on my maiden name line.
The family lived in West Yorkshire and is traceable back 500 years on most lines.
Endogamy abounds plus pedigree collapse with 6/8 Gt Grandparent lines sharing the same DNA from the mid 1500s back. The highest DNA match we have that appears to be in this line is 70 cM, with a good well research family tree. We both match with a group of 93 other DNA matches who all triangulate on the same chromosome.
Would love to hear any methodology that is helping you to solve the mystery.
Our DNA has been shared on most DNA sites.
Kind regards,
Jill
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Sadly Jill the Op did not have the manners to return and to update us on what happened.
Can you pm me your Gedmatch number, you have a name in your list that I have in my tree.
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PM sent.
I’m really a novice with GEDmatch I’m afraid.
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Update: First, I appreciate the input from those who kindly commented and a woman who even messaged me on Ancestry. That said, I don't appreciate assuming I am mannerless due to not updating. I am chronically ill and posted this over a year ago in hopes of finding information, but also don't use this website often or even had before. I lost track of it honestly and forgot I even posted.
I won't bore you with my personal struggles, but I will say, you shouldn't assume someone isn't having manners or being kind because their own life became busy, they could be sick or not tech savvy or trying their best.
As far as this original post goes, I have not figured out how the DNA matches on Ancestry relate, MG 145cM, LR 118cM or RB 112cM. First, I believe they are from my mother's paternal side which is not the side I suspect the Endogamy, but when I originally shared this I was not sure which side they were from. Some of them have their full name listed on Ancestry, but some of their names are not their birth names due to Adoptions and 1 doesn't have a name, tree or messaging enabled. Feel free to disregard these DNA matches in the context of my post as at this time I do not suspect it is of importance.
Since the post I have narrowed down the possible line/relation of the endogamous relationship but have not been able to confirm a specific person.
The DNA match on 23andMe I mentioned with the initials PE who matches my mother at 335cM but is a known 3rd cousin based on my research has been confirmed through speaking with him and his mother that my research is correct. His mother also tested and she matches my mother at 512 cM and she is my mother's 2C1R.
Another DNA match popped up since this post on Ancestry to my delight. His initials are PS and he matches my mother at 261 cM. Through research and chatting I have found out he is also a 3rd cousin to my mother.
PE (3C - 335 cM 23andMe) & PS 261 cM (3C - 261 cM Ancestry) are 2nd Cousins, but they do not know eachother/about eachother.
PE's mother and PS's mothers are 1st Cousins. Their MRCAs are Thomas Chalinder(1876-1931) and Mary Isabel Hardy (1884-1957). At this time I have not found any more descendants of these two in my DNA matches on any site I am on which Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage, GEDmatch, ftDNA & LivingDNA.
I have also not found a single DNA match to relate myself or my mother to Thomas Chalinder or his family. At this time I unfortunately am going to be waiting for more DNA matches to pop up and just continue tracing all of them like I always do.
Unfortunately, it seems as though it must be a strictly paternal relationship with no straying off the line which may mean it is not a cousin like I had somewhat suspected and may be a closer relationship. I don't even want to type the possibilities in here until I can confirm it as I am very emotionally attached when I do my research and do not want to speak ill of the dead without stronger evidence.
Again, I thank you for those who reached out and I do apologize for not updating as that was not my intention. I am doing the best I can with the cards I was dealt in life.
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What an
Interesting conundrum
The matches do seem high for the relationship . Going back further in the trees are there examples of cousins marrying or twins whose descendants would have higher cm
I researched someone whose grandfather's sister married his grandmothers brother
So his second cousins were double cousins
I don't know if that counts as endogamy but their expected cm amounts were higher than most regular 2C
*Deleted sentence because not relevant because those matches are from your mother's paternal side *
Good luck ...Del thanks for the update
look forward to update from Rossdal too tho it can take time for more matching
DNA results to come in
A tip for you both if you use ancestry. Always look at shared matches of shared matches I find it particularly useful if they are adoptees
Can sometimes predict which is a shared great grandparents surname + location
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Hi Michelle,
The three unknown matches would seem to be your best hope to resolve the problem. Anyone whose relationship you can trace by paper is no help.
The three unknowns - did their profiles give any indication of whether they lived close to each other or Auckland?
As said - Shared Matches with these three can help. Rather like the Clustering done by MyHeritage but you can do it manually. Find Shared Matches common to your three unknowns. Even if they are more distant you may find just the one you need who has a decent tree and/or is willing to engage with you. Could take many hours over weeks or months.
I was lucky with the father of my illegitimate gran. Her mother lived in North Yorkshire but married a lad from Suffolk two years after gran was born. After four months of checking DNA matches on Ancestry I found a woman in Canada whose only English ancestor in her tree was a man called by the same surname and from the same village as my grans Stepfather. Two hours later I had worked out that the Canadian woman’s ancestor was first cousin of the Stepfathers father. So the woman in Canada is my fifth cousin and by today’s standards gran is no longer illegitimate.
Edit. The Canadian woman might be a fourth cousin once removed. Can’t recall how many generations on her side.
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Hi there,
I completely understand how life gets in the way.
Since I posted I have done a lot more work on my family tree only to realise the full extent of endogamy and pedigree collapse on my DNA results.
It’s extensive, with 6 out of 8 Great Grandparent sharing the exact same families back from the 16th century. I have multiple DNA matches between 30-20 cM, who share MRCA on these lines who are 8th+ cousins.
The line I’m searching for had very small families and ‘girled’ out. The living relatives that could prove useful refuse to test, so I don’t think I have any hope of finding out much more about my maiden name.
Good luck with your search.
Regards, Jill
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I'd like to see your tree
if I've understood correctly.it's not surprising there are no connections to Thomas Challinder
As your connection to his children s descendants would be thru his wife Mary Isabel HARDY
Presumably she is sister of Mays grandfather .John Thomas HARDY .
Did he have other siblings ?
Another possibility....
Is it possible that somewhere along the lines a sibling brought up a late child of their mothers as their own ?
The opposite is more common when grandmother brings up daughters child as own . But I saw a case where DNA matches were higher than expected til the tested discovered she was actually her
" grandmothers " child .
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Ps I found your tree on ancestry
It's interesting that Daniel ALDWICK was best man at May's wedding
Even tho you say Daniel ALDWICK junior did not have children . If his father was also May's father you could have matches to descendants of their ancestors...don't forget to look at the mother grandmother+. Great grandmother s maiden name
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UPDATE 2 on the first 3 Matches, the possible Endogamy & the research I have done:
Though it is not the focus of my post now that I am aware that the 3 clustered on Ancestry are likely from the paternal side, I will add a bit of info since it seems of interest to some.
I've been using initials for privacy but I feel a first name if it is common enough should suffice in the privacy of my matches.
MG, her name is Margaret(145 cM), her surname on Ancestry is her married name, she was adopted and her birth name was actually Bronwyn before she was adopted. She lives in New Zealand. She was my first curiosity as she was originally the closest DNA match my mother had.
We spoke once but she was waiting on more information about her adoption and hasn't gotten back to me. Her daughter Kristy(47 cM), also has tested now and I reached out to her as well. I still haven't heard much back.
LR, Lorraine (118 cM) I have built a tree for and spoken with but she told me "you know more than me, I couldn't tell you if any of that is accurate or not".
I have clustered all the shared matches of each of these women, as well as their shared matches shared matches. Within this cluster it jumps from the 100+ cM of Margaret, Lorraine and someone named Rachel(112cM) , no last name, no messaging option, private tree and hasn't logged on in a year and isn't on any other site down to under 50 cM, closer to 20 cM for most.
As my health has gone into decline a bit I have spent a little less time on Genealogy as I used to, but I still love it. I will say, for every DNA match my mother has, I have built a tree for them, even if I have only them to put on it. I add as many details as I can, I work hypotheses on these trees and I have multiple spreadsheets for clustering these DNA matches. I also use DNA painter for matches that are on MyHeritage and 23andMe to help find specific snps of relatives.
I would say I have done quite a bit of extensive research and organizing of my mother's DNA matches, but she truly has a much smaller amount of close DNA matches than anyone else's DNA I've worked with.
I am trying to respond as best as I can, but I tried to from my phone and it just did not have the format showing up properly so I apologize ahead of time if I am late to a reply, miss some information or do respond in an out of context type way if I try to from my phone. I cannot always get to my computer, but I will try.
Again, I appreciate the input and I do not really plan to dig deeper on these main 3 DNA matches as they are Paternal and I am focusing a bit more on Maternal right now. I do check back on these however in case they ever update their Ancestry, show up on another site, respond to a message or have a tree.
To the original post & update: I mentioned the relation of Mary Isabel Hardy being the MRCA for the DNA matches I shared, but I forgot to mention Mary Isabel Hardy was the sister to John Thomas Hardy mentioned in the main post. I believe the DNA is pointing towards a strictly paternal overlap and like I said I am waiting for more information or DNA proof to state much further as it is quite the allegation to make on someone who cannot defend themselves without enough evidence, but hopefully some of you understand what I am implying may have been the case for this endogamous relationship/offspring. I will continue to look to John Thomas Hardy's siblings' descendants for more information but at this time not many have DNA tested, so it is very much a waiting game.
I will add I have researched every single male family member I could find who was alive around the time of May's birth. There is no DNA connecting my mother or myself to the Aldworth line who Harriet married after May was born and also had another child with. John Thomas Hardy, Harriet's father, was the son of George Hardy & Susannah Hutchinson. George & Susannah had 7 children. Edward Hardy (1880-1964), Mary Isabel Hardy (married Chalinder, 1884-1957), George Hardy (1887-1894), John Thomas Hardy (1891-1957), Phyllis Hardy (married Edward Girling, 1894-1953), George William Hardy (1898-1977) and Robert Hardy (1901-1965).
I am working on building all of their lines, but have only found DNA matches through the women of these, both Mary Isabel Hardy (Chalinder) and Phyllis Hardy (Girling), sisters to John Thomas Hardy.
The Chalinder descendants seemed to match at an alarming rate higher based on the Shared cM Tool through DNA Painter by Blaine Bettinger, but the Girling descendant also is higher than expected but still falls within an "8%" chance for the known relationship.
The Girling descendant, named Mark, matches my mother at 134 cM and he is a 3C1R.
Again, I appreciate all input and hope you all uncover your mysteries you have if you have them and I do promise to try my best to update with relevant information, though it will probably be at a slower/later pace due to my health and caring for my children.
I will try to get some more work done on this and sort through it in a coherent way and report back when I find time. :)
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What Amazing work
Thanks for sharing your techniques on the paternal matches
+ For the endogamy comments
I would suspect a grandfather or uncle as fathering a HARDY girl's child which would explain generational predictions
You probably have an idea of the culprit but as you say can't make allegations.
I use the DNA connection tag on tree profile of relatives who I match all the way down the line from common ancestor.
Whether they show up on thru lines or not
I wonder if you get alternative thru line.suggesstions if there are connections from 2 sides of HARDY. Families especially if they are intergenerational
I