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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: splask on Monday 01 August 22 14:56 BST (UK)
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Hi - I'm looking for help to read the date on this Daly family headstone. Also, if there is any context on the style/period of the writing, particularly the spelling of died - "Dide"
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You've posted in Ireland Resources which is for resources not queries.
I have asked a moderator to move your request to the Ireland General board where you might find an answer.
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I think it says February 12th 39/40 which would probably be 1539/1540. There was a change between Gregorian and Julien calendars around 1552 I believe, but not sure about this, and others may correct me.
Regards.
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I think it's 1739/40 (written 173940), which would be 1739 Old Style and 1740 New Style.
In England the calendar changed in 1752, but I don't know when it did in Ireland. (I probably should.)
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There was no set way of spelling so "dide" isn't significant. "Monoment" is spelled monument now.
The big letters IHS at the top centre is a Christogram, a monogram symbolising Jesus Christ, an abbreviation of Jesus in Greek.
Is it original or a replacement/copy? It seems very well-preserved.
I think it says February 12th 39/40 which would probably be 1539/1540. There was a change between Gregorian and Julien calendars around 1552 I believe, but not sure about this, and others may correct me.
Regards.
The calendar changed from Julian to Gregorian in many countries on the continent of Europe in 1582. They were mainly Catholic countries as the change was led by King Philip of Spain, a Catholic monarch who ruled several European countries, and the Pope.
The Gregorian calendar was adopted by Catholic clergy in some places in Ireland but not by the Church of Ireland. That resulted in anomalies such as the date of a person's burial being recorded days before the date of death, or a will dated after a death date. Ireland officially changed to the Gregorian calendar in1752, the same time as England.
Scotland adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1600.
Year on the monument looks to me more like 1739/40 than 1539/40. If it was 1539/40 it's not an original inscription. It may not be original if the year is 1739/40.
Where is it?
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thanks arthurk and Maiden Stone. The headstone is in Saint Mary's Church Of Ireland graveyard in Streete, Westmeath. https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/15400201/st-marys-church-of-ireland-church-barradrum-streete-westmeath
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As for "dide" it may be an alternate spelling as has been suggested, but stone cutters simply make mistakes. I have seen many.
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As regards OP's comment that this headstone is in a Church of Ireland graveyard, I think I should point out that it does not at all follow that this is a CofI family. At the time the only graveyards were those of the established church so everyone was, perforce, buried in them. In fact the internal evidence from this headstone is that this was a Catholic family - viz, the "IHS".
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I can confirm that that this was a catholic family. The plot also includes my Aunts, Great Aunts, Grandparents, and Great Grandparents.
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The headstone is in Saint Mary's Church Of Ireland graveyard in Streete, Westmeath. https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/15400201/st-marys-church-of-ireland-church-barradrum-streete-westmeath
It says that local tradition suggests there was previously a Catholic church on the site.
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In fact the internal evidence from this headstone is that this was a Catholic family - viz, the "IHS".
That was also my feeling It's a symbol popular with Latin-rite Catholics, although not exclusively used by them.
Any thoughts about the carving of a face in the top corner?
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In fact the internal evidence from this headstone is that this was a Catholic family - viz, the "IHS".
Any thoughts about the carving of a face in the top corner?
It is not meant to represent a face as such. Instead the face plus the wings and body below and engraving above are meant to represent an angel. Angels convey the souls of the faithful departed to heaven - Luke 16:19-31. As an aside, angels have more than two wings, as can be seen on the stone.
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Scotland adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1600.
I don't think this is quite right. Scotland changed the start of the year (New Year's Day) to January 1st in 1600, but did not adopt the Gregorian calendar until 1752, like the rest of Britain.
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Wexflyer, it's obvious that it's an angel now you've told me. :)
Reply 12. You're correct. I was conflating 2 things.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/record-guides/old-parish-registers/change-in-calendar
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At a guess - and it is much less certain than the angel on the right - the symbol on the top left of the headstone is meant to represent the tree of life.
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As regards OP's comment that this headstone is in a Church of Ireland graveyard, I think I should point out that it does not at all follow that this is a CofI family. At the time the only graveyards were those of the established church so everyone was, perforce, buried in them. In fact the internal evidence from this headstone is that this was a Catholic family - viz, the "IHS".
Anglicans/Church of Ireland also use the IHS. My gt Grandmother a CoI from the north (Co Derry) has this on her gravestone in a NZ cemetery erected in 1888. In fact when I found it, the IHS was a pointer that it might be her stone plus the burial date obv. The stone was erected by her husband a 'fierce Presbyterian' (quoting my mother) and I don't think he would be putting anything on that signalled a RC connection. She also had lilies engraved
'Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.'
Looking at the info on the stone it says Mary Daly alias Fox so that will be a clue too.
Above the saint/angel there are fern frond-like 'things'. I have seen this before.
Found that it symbolises sincerity; humility; solitude
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As regards OP's comment that this headstone is in a Church of Ireland graveyard, I think I should point out that it does not at all follow that this is a CofI family. At the time the only graveyards were those of the established church so everyone was, perforce, buried in them. In fact the internal evidence from this headstone is that this was a Catholic family - viz, the "IHS".
Anglicans/Church of Ireland also use the IHS. My gt Grandmother a CoI from the north (Co Derry) has this on her gravestone in a NZ cemetery erected in 1888. In fact when I found it, the IHS was a pointer that it might be her stone plus the burial date obv. The stone was erected by her husband a 'fierce Presbyterian' (quoting my mother) and I don't think he would be putting anything on that signalled a RC connection. She also had lilies engraved
'Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.'
Looking at the info on the stone it says Mary Daly alias Fox so that will be a clue too.
Above the saint/angel there are fern frond-like 'things'. I have seen this before.
Found that it symbolises sincerity; humility; solitude
It may be straying, but while I have indeed seen the IHS monogram used in "high church" Anglican settings, I can't recall seeing IHS on a gravestone in a purely CofI cemetery in Ireland. Which is not to say that it does not or cannot exist, but it must be rare - especially in the 1730s.
IHS is the central charge of the Jesuit arms, and was a leading symbol of the counter-reformation. It was very much a "Catholic" emblem in Ireland, which automatically meant that Protestants avoided its use. You can find academic papers supporting this assertion.
https://pure.qub.ac.uk/en/publications/the-ihs-monogram-as-a-symbol-of-catholic-resistance-in-17th-centu (https://pure.qub.ac.uk/en/publications/the-ihs-monogram-as-a-symbol-of-catholic-resistance-in-17th-centu)
The Lutheran church makes extensive use of IHS. Things may also be different in NZ, especially in such "modern" times as the 1880s.
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IHS is the central charge of the Jesuit arms, and was a leading symbol of the counter-reformation.
With a sun behind IHS.
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IHS is the central charge of the Jesuit arms, and was a leading symbol of the counter-reformation.
With a sun behind IHS.
Quite. And with three nails. But that is why I specified "central charge".
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Further to the use of the IHS monogram, I was inspired to traipse around the local CofI graveyard this afternoon.
Several hundred memorials. From those to 300+ who managed to get themselves killed under the "Illustrious Wellington", down to those of today.
Not a single IHS to be seen, and I walked the entire graveyard.
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In the recent times of the 1880s in NZ we have town/city cemeteries and very few church cemeteries. My gt grandmother would have been classed in NZ as high-ish Anglican.
Her stone does not have the cross in it, only the letters and below that the lilies. I don't think I have seen the cross in it and if I have I have not thought it was a part of the IHS.
NZ Anglicans have an empty cross, ie no actual figure to signify 'he is risen'. RC in NZ have a cross with a sculpture signifying Jesus.
https://www.episcopalchurch.org/glossary/ihs/
What is the meaning of IHS in Anglican Church?
a contraction derived from the Greek word ΙΗΣΟΥΣ, Jesus, used as a symbol or monogram: later misunderstood as a Latin abbreviation I.H.S. and expanded variously as Iesus Hominum Salvator, Jesus, Savior of Men; In Hoc Signo (Vinces), in this sign (thou shalt conquer); In Hac (Cruce) Salus, in this (cross) salvation.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqo/
Well I have learned something. I think the lack of the cross running through it takes it from rebellious to commonplace in Anglican. It is often carved in gothic type writing within a circle but no cross.
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To return to the original query, I believe 12th February 1739, Old Style (Julian), corresponds to 23rd February, 1740, New Style (Gregorian)