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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: RickyJack on Tuesday 26 July 22 03:10 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have a John Smith and Jane Hall
In the 1851 census for Jane Smith of Birkenhead Cheshire UK are
Jane Smith 40 widow Ireland = 1809
Thomas Smith son 13 Ireland 1835-1894
Mary Smith dau 11 Ireland 1840-1896
Betsy Smith dau 9 Ireland 1842
James Smith son 7 1844 Birkenhead Cheshire
Jane Smith dau 4 1848-1920 same
Ann Smith dau 1850 same
two brickwalls I have here.....John died 1850 Birkenhead therefore not in the 1851 census...however some say born 1813 Latchford Cheshire
and another says he died at 53 ..Lancaster England C of E Deaths 1813-1986 for John Smith, Bishops transcripts Liverpool 1850-1859 at Workhouse at 53.
Some say he was born in Ireland as Jane Hall was and 3 kids....there first kid born 1835 = John was 22 the workhouse John would mean born 1798.= 37 years old
I can not find a marriage for John and Jane hall or births for the first three kids in Ireland,....just seems odd to me that if John born in Cheshire would go to Ireland, at approximately the time of the potatoe famine
when most people were getting out of there
Appreciate any help with this little mystery Please
Rick in Australia
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Just to point out - Latchford THEN was Lancashire - Latchford is in Warrington
so - only ONE Baptism in Warrington 1813 for a John Smith
Baptism: 28 Feb 1813 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
John Smith - Son of Joseph Smith & Ruth
Abode: Bank St
Occupation: Weaver
I am not saying this IS your John Smith - but a possible
if you google Bank Street ,Latchford ,Warrington - a map appears -
What is putting me off this being your John is - none of Johns children named Joseph or Ruth after his parents ?
anyway - maybe just make a note of it for future reference ??
You can see the record on here - https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
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ADDED - Hmm - states Latchford in 1840's is Cheshire ,very close to the Lancashire border - then says -Latchford was placed within the County Borough of Warrington, and the registration county of Lancashire until 1974 - very confusing - the way I read it is Latchford ,Cheshire but St Elphins church was in Lancashire - sorry - maybe another member can clarify ??
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Hiya Rick - I see you are online - only ONE John Smith died in Birkenhead in 1850 - April /May / June - June qtr
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Only 2 births in Birkenhead for Ann Smith 1850 born July/August/September 1850 - AFTER the death of John - very sad for Jane
Births Sep 1850
Smith Ann Jane Wirrall 19 334
Smith Annie Wirrall 19 370
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so was your Ann - Ann Jane ??
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Do you mean Hall or Hale?
Woodstock
James 1842 mmn Hale
Wirral
Jane registered 1847 mmn Hale
Ann registered 1849 mmn Hale
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Annie 1850 has mmn Armstrong
Ann Jane Has mmn Knowles
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Your find looks much more likely Amondg
Cheshirebmd
SMITH Ann HALE 1849 Woodchurch Wirral WOO/5/9
I live Liverpool over the Mersey from Birkenhead - Woodchurch is the name of the Birkenhead Ferry Landing Stage - so I think you have hit the nail on the head ....
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Thanks Garsonite.
The John Smith died 1850 registered Wirral was age 0
The John Smith 1849 registered Wirral was 78
How do you know her husband's name was John if he wasn't on the census, do you have a birth certificate of any of the children?
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From GenUKI:
"LATCHFORD, a chapelry in the parish of GRAPPENHALL, hundred of BUCKLOW, county palatine of CHESTER, 1½ mile (S.E.) from Warrington, containing 1252 inhabitants."
Latchford was a township in Grappenhall ancient parish, Bucklow hundred (SJ 6187), which became a civil parish in 1866.
The civil parish was transferred from Cheshire to Lancashire in 1894, and was abolished in 1898 to become part of Warrington (Lancashire).
It includes the hamlet of Wilderspool.
The population was 754 in 1801, 2542 in 1851, and 6528 in 1891.
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Dublin Workhouse 1840
There is a Jane Smith born circa 1811, Thomas 1836 and Mary 1839
This is on FindMyPast and I don't have a sub for it so perhaps someone else can look and see if it's a possible.
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GoodMorning and Thankyou for your information
Jane Smith Wildgoose found in 17 trees on Ancestry 2nd to last daughter of John and Jane...Interesting that only some say John born 1810 Ireland Jane is and the first three kids.
Five of the 6 kids are written as paupers,1851 census make me wonder about John Smith who died at the workhouse aged 53 in 1850 born abt 1797-8
tried to copy/snip over a portion of that 1851 census no luck however it is there on some of those trees
Thanks again Rick
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Just a little more
Thomas' father died in aproximately 1850, leaving Jane with six children to raise. She had a lodging house in William Street Birkenhead, this was in 1851. In 1857 Jane, with daughter Jane and Ann, lived at 9 Eldon Place.
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Thanks Amondg KGarrad and Garstonite
As far as I know there are no birth certificates for John and Janes Irish kids, which raises the point I dont know how the 17 trees on ancestry know that the father was John Smith either and or Irish, If you go by traditional naming of the Children the first son born has his grandfathers name....looking at the kids name Johns parents would be Thomas and Betsey Smith and Janes would be Mary and James Hall....child 5 is Jane after her..
If John Smith was a wheelwright [wheelsmith] between 1842 and 1850 around Birkenhead is there anyway of checking this
cheers Rick
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Hi Rick, There was a Richard Smith born June Quarter 1851 in Wirral Registration District, Mother's maiden name Hale. Don't know if you have this.
Ray.
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Thanks Ray... this Wirral seems to be connected to this Smith Hall relationship and Hale may have been a misspell for Hall as well
I was working with the wheelwright occupation, searching the net for Wheelwright and Cheshire I came up with
George Hall Wheelwright Farndon or Froasham
Richard Smith WW and Smith at Malpas
Thomas Smith WW Hughleigh....I dont know any of these places or how close they are to each other.The thinking was maybe our John brought his bride back to his Dads WW business.
Thomas Smith WW Liverpool Nov 1827 his will...sadly rumour has it that Johns first kid Thomas was born 1835,but Kid no 4 was born on English soil around 1842-44
appreciate any help with this mystery
Cheers Rick
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I’m not sure if you now have this but here you are
Jane Smith Wildgoose found in 17 trees on Ancestry 2nd to last daughter of John and Jane...Interesting that only some say John born 1810 Ireland Jane is and the first three kids.
Did she marry Herbert Wildgoose?
That marriage is here on Family Search. Her father - William, a Shipwright. :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F35L-TPY
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Jane’s residence on her marriage is Tranmere.
1851 2175 /826/35
Jane Smith 6 yrs Tranmere with father William, a Carpenter
1861 2646 /78/37
William is a Shipwright but no Jane with the family.
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Hi I'm distant realted to this Smith family aswell I'm realted to Thomas Smith 1835 1894 parents are john smith and Jane hall had siblings can't find anything on them
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hi im related john smith and jane hall their son was thomas smith 1835 1894 i belive they from ireland not sure where but john died in 1850 in birkenhead chesire
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Hopefully, RickyJack will receive notification of your post and reply soon.
You say ‘John died in 1850 in Birkenhead’. The only death at that time was John Smith, 0 yrs.
Are you basing that death on information in those trees?
Do you have a birth certificate for any of the English born children?
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Hi I don't have birth certificate for any kids except I'm realted to Thomas Smith 1835 1894
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hi did ann betsy or mary have kids or james think jane married herbert wildgoose and thomas married sarah bridgeman
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Did she marry Herbert Wildgoose?
That marriage is here on Family Search. Her father - William, a Shipwright. :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F35L-TPY
I posted the above earlier in the thread. Here is a copy of the marriage.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rvl/
As you can see it says her father was William.
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Hi I don't have birth certificate for any kids except I'm realted to Thomas Smith 1835 1894
Do Thomas’ marriage or death details name his father?
Did he marry in Australia?
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Hi I think I found Jane hall parents James Hall and penny from county carvan in Ireland
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Looking back over the thread, there has been no evidence from certificates about the children’ s births (England only). Indexes are showing Hale as the name, I think. It might be transcribed wrongly but if those two births are the right children, they both show Hale :-\
Where do you have records which show her as Jane Hall.
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Hi there is 6 kids I'm realted to Thomas Smith I'm not sure on Jane hall there is 1821 census in Cavan Ireland for her parents and siblings
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Yes I have seen that now but you would need more information. As I wrote earlier, Ann and Jane show mother’s name as Hale. I can’t see a birth for James with Hall/Hale.
This is the census you have. It may be her but it may not.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1821/Cavan/Kenawley/Cornagran/5/
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Hi is there anyway of find Jane Hoausman the niece not sure if James or penny
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John and Jane had 6 kids 3 from Ireland and 3 from Birkenhead Cheshire
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Is your Jane from County Cavan?
There is another one here.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1821/Cavan/Drung___Larah/Lattecoppel/6/
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Hi I'm not sure depending on who this Jane married
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A published tree gives information about Jane Roasman/Roseman that:
“James Hall became John Roseman's business partner in Roseman and Hall, Sizers, Belfast”
I haven’t found information about that company.
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Hi ok say Jane is a niece
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Hi ok say Jane is a niece
Yes it does but there is no other information.
Where is your evidence that Jane’s maiden name is Hall?
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hi ive got no evidence just there is 6 kids one is thomas and some from ireland ad birkenhead cheshire
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You are repeating the same information wIthout any substantiation.
Unfortunately, I too am repeating the same replies to you.
Two of the English births seem to indicate that the mother’s name was Hale.
I can’t see a birth for James. Do you have one?
As yet, no death has been found for John Smith who you say is the father.
hi did ann betsy or mary have kids or james think jane married herbert wildgoose and thomas married sarah bridgeman
As mentioned earlier, Jane gives her father as William.
What information do you have about Thomas?
If he is definitely the Thomas in this family, it would be best to purchase a birth certificate of one of the English born children to find out the father’s details and check the mother’s maiden name.
Whilst some trees show Thomas Smith who married Sarah Bridgman in Australia as the son of Jane - others show him as born in Preston.
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Hi I don't know much I know it Thomas Smith I'm realted 1835 1894 he had 5 daughters and Sarah Bridgeman wife john and Jane was parents had 6 kids he was convict
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Where in Thomas’ criminal records does it say he is the son of Jane?
(As yet, we don’t have evidence of Jane’s husband’s name).
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Hi In 1851 English census his mum is Jane Smith along with 6kids Thomas was a convict he came to Australia
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You are repeating the same information again.
Various trees show Thomas Smith b Ireland 1835 with the information you keep repeating.
1851 Thomas Smith 13 yrs b Ireland with mother Jane and siblings - born abt 1838.
Published trees have Thomas Smith, convict, transported, 14 yrs on the Edwin Fox, 1858.
His conviction was manslaughter and newspaper reports from 1857 give his age as 21 yrs.
I have also seen reference to burglary as the crime though.
1861 2640/75/5
There is a Thomas Smith, 22 yrs b Ireland who is lodging with an Eagleton family.
Now this may not be the same Thomas from 1851 with mother Jane and siblings but you are not giving anything to support your repeated claims.
You need more evidence. Is there paperwork from Australia which have his date of birth and his parent details?
I don’t mean that his wife was Sarah and he had those children. I see that in the published trees. I mean paper work regarding him and his birth and parents.
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Hi no I don't have anything on his birth or parents Jane hall smith born 1808 1811 in Ireland
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Sadly, I can’t see how you can progress as you have no real proof that you have the right Thomas Smith and, indeed, if Jane is his mother, you don’t have her maiden name or husband either. :-\
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Hi I got right Thomas Smith as I'm realted to him he was a convict parents are john smith and Jane john died 1850 his mum was living in 9eldon place Birkenhead Cheshire with Ann
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Please will you give the details of John’s death - the reference from the indexes etc.
That might help you to progress further.
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Hi think john died 1850 in Birkenhead Cheshire as Jane was raised the kids on her own they were there is 1857 as Thomas on trial
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Hi think john died 1850 in Birkenhead Cheshire as Jane was raised the kids on her own they were there is 1857 as Thomas on trial
You only ‘think’ he died in 1850? Have you checked the indexes?
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
It seems that you are basing your information on the published trees and there are many, I think, but not with supporting evidence.
It is a pity that RickyJack hasn’t come back to this thread. They were online earlier today and hopefully receiving email notifications.
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Hi he died 1850 as in 1851 Jane was a widow looking after the Family
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Yes, I see that in the census. However, she could have been a widow for months or years.
Have you found his death entry in those indexes? Or any other mention of his death?
How do you know who you are looking for as you have no evidence of Jane’s husband’s name.
I am beginning to sound like you now - constantly repeating the same information. :)
Do you not see that you are offering nothing to this query?
You need to be sure of at least something. He might well be John but unless you have a birth record of a child, you will never know.
You have not, as far as I can see, provided information that Thomas who went to Australia is the same Thomas who is the son of Jane.
As I wrote earlier, I think you may have, sadly, come to the end of your research here unless you proactively try to get some evidence based records,
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Hi Thomas mum is Jane had siblings or from family notes from other members when Thomas was on trial his mum was there
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Well that’s good. Perhaps the newspaper articles might include that. I have no access to them. Or you might have it amongst your notes that you could post to help people.
I am conscious that I am the only person replying. I hope others do with a fresh outlook.
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Hi ok thanks for replying or helping hopefully something will come up
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:) Good luck. I hope something positive turns up.