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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Allison Terry on Monday 25 July 22 04:45 BST (UK)

Title: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: Allison Terry on Monday 25 July 22 04:45 BST (UK)
I am looking for a death record for Elizabeth Watkins. Elizabeth came to Australia from Ireland in1855 with her sister Jane. Elizabeth married Joseph Watkins in 1861 Sydney, Australia. Joseph died in 1874. Joseph and Elizabeth lived at Raglan St, Waterloo. In 1886 Elizabeth was still Elizabeth Watkins. I can't find a death record which is definitely the Elizabeth Watkins from this family. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Allison Terry :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 25 July 22 06:48 BST (UK)

This marriage record will name parents for bride and groom. Those name might help you to identify a death for your Elizabeth WATKINS nee  HUMES.

What do you see on this marriage certificate?

BDM NSW marriage
800/1861 WATKINS  Joseph   x   HUMES      Elizabeth  @ Sydney



What is your reference for this information....what do you see for 1886

"In 1886 Elizabeth was still Elizabeth Watkins"
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 25 July 22 07:07 BST (UK)

Is this your WATKINS family....including Wilhelmina?

BDM NSW births
2741/1859  WATKINS  Wilhelmina   parents Joseph / Sarah            @ Glebe
1673/1862  WATKINS Harriet          parents Joseph / Elizabeth       @  Sydney
1674/1862  WATKINS Joseph          parents Joseph / Elizabeth       @  Sydney
2302/1864  WATKINS William         parents Joseph / Elizabeth       @  Sydney
725/1867    WATKINS Elizabeth      parents Joseph / Elizabeth        @  Sydney
1145/1869  WATKINS Isabella         parents Joseph / Elizabeth        @  Sydney
4194/1871  WATKINS Robert          parents Joseph / Elizabeth        @  Redfern

NSW BDM death
1558/1864  WATKINS Joseph         parents Joseph / Elizabeth        @  Redfern

If father Joseph dies in 1874, and Elizabeth does not remarry, how does she support her family of small children?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 25 July 22 07:57 BST (UK)

Sydney Morning Herald  24 Jan 1886 p16
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28358327?
.....friends of Mrs. Elizabeth WATKINS.....the Funeral of her late beloved daughter, Elizabeth Wiggins; to move from No. 24, Goodlet-street.....Necropolis.

Wilhelmina is daughter of Joseph by his earlier marriage.?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: Allison Terry on Monday 25 July 22 08:33 BST (UK)
Hi everyone,
Thank you all for all your help with my enquiry. Yes Elizabeth Watkins family does include her step daughter Wilhelmina Watkins. Elizabeth's parents are Robert Humes and Margaret Hunter. I only know Elizabeth was still Watkins in 1886 because of a funeral notice for her daughter Elizabeth Wiggins. Joseph had a brother John who married Hannah Stone 1859 in Sydney, they may have helped Elizabeth with raising her family. I appreciate everyone's help and I think I may have to accept that I may have reached the end of the road. Thank you all.
Regards
Allison Terry
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 25 July 22 09:07 BST (UK)

* Marriage of a son or daughter, 1886+, and identifying mother, Elizabeth WATKINS, would give opportunity to see when Elizabeth is still alive.

*What names for witnesses on the marriage certificate, 1861?. Might lead to a HUME connection.

*What happened to sister Jane?.  Where do you see sisters Elizabeth and Jane arriving 1855?

Where was Elizabeth born?.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: shanreagh on Monday 25 July 22 15:54 BST (UK)
As wivenhoe suggests as a next step I would be looking at all the marriage certificates for all of the children as some of them may be after 1886, after all some of them (most of them) would be marrying in the 1880s.  I would look for marriages on Trove once you have the name of the other party. 

Elizabeth Watkins may have married again.  Have you looked at this possibility?  She may have reverted to her maiden name. She may have moved, either interstate perhaps to live near a married child or to NZ or back to Ireland or with her sister.   Have you checked for deaths worldwide?   are there electoral rolls in Aus in the 1880s? If so have you checked these? 

Often the births of grandchildren will name a child after a grandmother if she had died recently.  Have you checked this aspect? 
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 26 July 22 03:08 BST (UK)
Ancestry Sydney Parish Registers    https://www.ancestry.com.au/search/collections/61177/

St Silas Church Waterloo 17 Aug 1882
WRIGHT George Pickett  bachelor   b. Goulburn St Sydney tinsmith  20y
Residence: Gerard St Alexandria
Parents: Joseph Thomas WRIGHT, baker,  Elizabeth SMITH

WATKINS Harriett          spinster    b. Fitzroy St Sydney    19y  (X)
Residence: Cooper Street Waterloo
Parents: Joseph JENKINS, storekeeper, Elizabeth HUGHES

Witnesses  John WHITE     Wilhelmina WATKINS     all other sign their name

It is interesting to see that Wilhelmina, born 1859, can sign her name.

Harriett, born 1862, and 12 years old when her father died, does not sign her name.

They are daughters of a storekeeper, which occupation would need a level of literacy.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 26 July 22 04:51 BST (UK)
Evening News 25 Sep 1908 p6   (Silver wedding anniversary)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/114751351?
GIBSON - WATKINS.- September 25, 1883 at St. Paul's Church, Redfern......Robert GIBSON, the eldest son of James GIBSON of Curtis road. Balmain, to Wilhelmina WATKINS the eldest daughter of the late Joseph WATKINS, of Waterloo. Present address: No. 2 Pearson street, Summer Hill.


BDM NSW death
3224/1933  GIBSON Wilhelmina parents Joseph / Wilhelmina  @ Five Dock


GIBSON - The Relatives and Friends of Mr Robert GIBSON and family are kindly Invited to attend the Funeral of his dearly loved wife and their mother Wilhelmina to leave her late residence 21 West street Fivedock..........Presbyterian Cemetery, Waverley

When Wilhelmina dies, and informant is likely her husband or adult son/daughter, no one can name her mother correctly?

Does this suggest that there is little knowledge of grandmother, mother-in-law, Elizabeth....no memory of her?

The WATKINS families would seem to live in inner city Sydney, making contact possible over the years.....but no memory of Elizabeth?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: Allison Terry on Tuesday 26 July 22 05:38 BST (UK)
Wilhelmina Watkins is Joseph's daughter with his first wife Sarah McGrath who he married in 1856. Sarah died when Wilhelmina was a baby. Joseph married Elizabeth in 1861 in Sydney, they had Harriet and Joseph in 1862 they were twins. Joseph died when there next son William was a baby. They had another two daughters Isabella and Elizabeth and finally a son Robert. Harriet and Isabella didn't have their mother's name on the death certificate. William, Robert and Elizabeth had both parents names on death certificate. Elizabeth may have been known as Eliza as well. On Williams death certificate it said Joseph and Eliza as his parents. If I could find a marriage for William that could help me . Robert married in More in 1920, not sure if Elizabeth would have been alive then but it is possible.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: Allison Terry on Tuesday 26 July 22 05:39 BST (UK)
Robert Watkins married Ruth Ward 1920 Moree NSW
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 26 July 22 07:36 BST (UK)


What documentation do you have for the BDM events in the lives of the people you have named so far.

What birth, death, marriage certificates do you have. Just identify them please at this stage.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Watkins ne Hume or Humes NSW Australia
Post by: Allison Terry on Tuesday 26 July 22 09:09 BST (UK)
NSW Marriage registration transcription
Groom : Joseph Watkins
Status : Widower
Place of birth: London
Occupation: Storekeeper
Age : 34
Usual residence :  Phillip Street Sydney
Father: James Thomas Watkins
Occupation: Warehouseman
Mother: Mary Harris
Bride : Elizabeth Humes
Status : Spinster
Place of birth : Co Fermanagh Ireland
Occupation: Domestic servant
Age : 24
Usual residence: Parramatta Street Sydney
Father: Robert Humes
Occupation: Farmer
Mother: Margaret Hunter
Date of marriage: 22 Nov 1861
Place of marriage: Scots Church Sydney
Religion: Presbyterian
Witnesses: John Watkins, (illegible) see note
Minister: John Dunmore Lang D.D
Birthplace/age/parent details obtained from church register no 358 on 21 Jul 1915
*Transcribers note: second witness is clearly recorded as (illegible) in this register