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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: goldie61 on Saturday 23 July 22 22:53 BST (UK)
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A change of hand for this entry from 1637 - M Rodiere must have had some helpers.
I'd appreciate it if somebody could check it over and fill in the blanks.
I have another contract that mentions the husband of Michelle Fournier was a Philippe Senleque, so I think that abbreviation must be 'Philippe'.
Mariage Charles le Daire lab(orer)? d(e)m(euran)t a Mout ? ?
& relict de def(unct) Anne Chevalier ass(isté) & acc(omagné) de Pierre et Jacques
Daire ses freres led(it) Jacques cavalier de la C(ompagnie) de M(onsiu)r le
Comte de Lannoy gouveneur de c(ette) v(ille)- et Phil(ippe) de
Senleque lab? du village de Clenleu depuis la ? ?
en c(ette) v(ille) et Michelle Fournier sa f(emm)e et Jehanne Senlecque
leur fille a marier ass(isté) de Pierre de Senleque
son frere aisné, de Guillaume Hedou la et en la
justice dud(it) Clenleu a cause de sa oncle
paternel a lad(it) Jehanne, de Louis Hedou lab
en lad(it) v(ille), son couisn germaine dud(it) coste: a
Many thanks
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The last word in the first line is vef = veuf = widower.
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Quality of the scan is not perfect. Do you have a link online?
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2 remaining blanks, but a clearer view might solve them. I didn't highlight the changes/ additions I made. Just compare them with your version ;)
Mariage Charles le Dairé lab(oureur) d(e)m(euran)t à ... vef
& relict de def(unct) Anne Chevalier ass(isté) & acc(ompagné) de Pierre et Jacques
Dairé ses frères, led(it) Jacques cavalier de la C(ompagn)ie de M(onsieu)r le
Comte de Lannoy gouverneur de c(ette) v(ille) - et Ph(i)li(ppe)s de
Senleque lab(oureur) du village de Clenleu depuis la guerre refugié
en c(ette) v(ille) et Michelle Fournier sa f(emm)e et Jehanne Senlecque
leur fille à marier ass(isté) de Pierre de Senlecque lab(oureur) ...
son frère aisné, de Guillaume Hesdou lab(oureur) et bailli en la
justice patrimonialle dud(it) Clenleu, à cause de sa femme oncle
paternel à lad(ite) Jehanne, de Louis Hesdou lab(oureur) refugié
en lad(ite) v(ille), son cousin germain dud(it) coste: le futur apporte
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https://www.geneanet.org/registres/view/211009/17?individu_filter=14804344
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_communes_du_Pas-de-Calais
Could be MONT...instead of MOUT...
Geneanet gives this marriage in Montreuil
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https://www.geneanet.org/registres/view/211009/17?individu_filter=14804344
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_communes_du_Pas-de-Calais
Could be MONT...instead of MOUT...
Geneanet gives this marriage in Montreuil
Thank you for the online register. Unfortunately they took a picture of the document instead of scanning it. The blurry words will remain blurry.
I have my doubts about Montreuil.
First of all I think it starts with Mou instead of Mon (the u is different from the n throughout the document). Secondly, the word Montreuil is never written in this register. What is used instead is c(ette) v(ille).
Any idea about the word between Mou... and vef?
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Thanks for everyone's help.
As Zefiro says, unfortunately the image on the film, (link given by joger), is slightly blurry, so the name of the place is tricky to make out.
There's also that word before the place starting with 'M' as well ............
Sometimes Montreuil is written as 'Ml' in these transcriptions.
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leur fille à marier assistée de Pierre de Senleque demeurant audit lieu
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La Caloterie or Calloterie (near Montreuil( sur mer))
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la caloterie
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Thanks joger.
That certainly clears up the missing words in the text - apart from the two on the first line.
Looking at the word 'Senlecque', the 'n' and 'u' are virtually the name, so I'm thinking the place name could well start with Mont... as you suggested.
Thanks for the clip from later on in the document - which I haven't got round to trying to do yet. Too much for my French I think, and I might have to post the whole bit!
I see the 3rd word on the line with 'chemin de la calloterie' is surely the same as the place mentioned at the beginning of the piece.
Is that an 'S' before it?
'St de Mont......"? - it looks more like 'Montervis'?
I do know Charles Daire's daughter Anne was baptised in 1640 in La Calotterie registers, so it ties in nicely with that.
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line11 :le futur apporte un jardin enclos de haies où il y a une grange situé audit lieu de Montesvis (?) tenant ( attached to) au chemin de la Calloterie audit lieu...
Montesvis seems to be where Charles Le Dairé lived (Charles = le futur , the groom)
in his dowry there is a garden and a barn attached to the chemin de la Callloterie in Montesvis .
I searched in the Cassinni maps but haven't found Montesvis or the chemin de la Calloterie in this area till now.
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1st document: the 2 remaining words are Montesvis desoubz.
This is also written as Montevis-dessous.
Montevis-dessous formed, together with Montevis-dessus and Vismarais, the place Quentavic (Quintavic, Quentowic). The problem is that nobody seems to know where this place was situated. But it's sure that it is in the area around Montreuil, so not somewhere distant.
Interesting reading (in French):
https://books.google.be/books?id=4CtLAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA583&dq=montevis&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJr7b-4Jn5AhUQ_KQKHdcvDgsQ6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q=montevis&f=false
https://books.google.be/books?id=bJ5sRAtgmWMC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=%22vismarais%22&source=bl&ots=Pzj9KBdI6j&sig=ACfU3U2o-9C6e4X7J5evWih8c0r6uSykog&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimiLuI45n5AhUqM-wKHeF-ASoQ6AF6BAgTEAM#v=onepage&q=%22vismarais%22&f=false
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Marriage contract of his brother ? Pierre Daire, same place : Monthewis-dessous
https://nl.geneanet.org/registers/view/218839/56?individu_filter=19910771
see below informations historiques, .... https://archivespasdecalais.fr/Recherche-par-commune/Lettre-L/La-Calotterie
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Many thanks everybody.
Well found! 'Ka pai!' as they say here in Te Reo Maori. - job well done.
Interesting range of spellings for this place Zefiro.
You seem to be able to get a better scan than I can joger, could I prevail upon you to post the second half from where it talks about what he is going to bring to the marriage, and I'll see if I (or more likely with some help!), can transcribe the rest.
Thanks for the link to Pierre Daire's marriage leen.
It seems pretty certain he is Charles's brother. He is mentioned in the marriage contract of Charles as being a brother, they come from the same little place, and it looks as if their father was also called Charles.
I've yet to transcribe it, so I might need some more help with some parts!
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Pierre Daire's marriage contract in 1638 was quite short and not too difficult.
Just 3 little bits - all in these first 2 lines.
'en la cense de Monthewis-dessous'
This phrase 'chx leger' crops up three times in the piece.
Any ideas?
Also the word before it in this clip - 'icelui' or 'icilui'?
Maybe 'ici lui'?
Many thanks
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Pierre Daire's marriage contract in 1638 was quite short and not too difficult.
Just 3 little bits - all in these first 2 lines.
'en la cense de Monthewis-dessous'
This phrase 'chx leger' crops up three times in the piece.
Any ideas?
Also the word before it in this clip - 'icelui' or 'icilui'?
Maybe 'ici lui'?
Many thanks
'en la cense' I would think is supposedly or possibly in the sense that it is unverified not that there is any suspicion.
ici lui
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icelui means celui-ci ( this one), old word
cense means" fermage " or "métairie" = farmstead, farm rental, etc...
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1st document: the 2 remaining words are Montesvis desoubz.
This is also written as Montevis-dessous.
Montevis-dessous formed, together with Montevis-dessus and Vismarais, the place Quentavic (Quintavic, Quentowic). The problem is that nobody seems to know where this place was situated. But it's sure that it is in the area around Montreuil, so not somewhere distant.
Interesting reading (in French):
https://books.google.be/books?id=4CtLAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA583&dq=montevis&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJr7b-4Jn5AhUQ_KQKHdcvDgsQ6AF6BAgJEAI#v=onepage&q=montevis&f=false
https://books.google.be/books?id=bJ5sRAtgmWMC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=%22vismarais%22&source=bl&ots=Pzj9KBdI6j&sig=ACfU3U2o-9C6e4X7J5evWih8c0r6uSykog&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimiLuI45n5AhUqM-wKHeF-ASoQ6AF6BAgTEAM#v=onepage&q=%22vismarais%22&f=false
great find Zephiro!
I found this :
https://etaples-sur-mer.fr/le-mystere-quentovic/
Quentovic est un port du Haut Moyen-Age, situé sur la Canche. Il occupe une place importante dans le royaume mérovingien et Carolingien (du VIIème au IXème siècle). Longtemps sa localisation a fait débat. Aujourd’hui les historiens s’accordent sur le lieu dit de Visemaret à côté de la Caloterie.
Vismaret and Montevis are approximatly the same place
and this
https://www.cairn.info/load_pdf.php?ID_ARTICLE=RDN_373_0089&download=1
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visemarest
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Pierre Daire's marriage contract in 1638 was quite short and not too difficult.
Just 3 little bits - all in these first 2 lines.
'en la cense de Monthewis-dessous'
This phrase 'chx leger' crops up three times in the piece.
Any ideas?
Also the word before it in this clip - 'icelui' or 'icilui'?
Maybe 'ici lui'?
Many thanks
CHx could be Christophe or Christian LEGER
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Great sleuthing joger!
Thanks very much for all your help and all the information.
His place of residence certainly now pinpointed.
Re chx- leger, it doesn't seem like a person's name from the context of the 3 times it is written in this piece - I see it also appears in the first line of the next entry from the clip I have, and so possibly more in other entries.
It doesn't have capital letters as all the other names the scribe writes do.
From the context, it seems to be something that describes the people it relates to?
Could it be some sort of Christian denomination? Surely everyone was Catholic in 1638 in France?
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It could be a place , but I haven't found anything yet .
France was mostly but not entirely catholic at this time.
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Chx léger means " chevaux léger", a soldier in the cavalry
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/chevau-l%C3%A9gers
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Oh well found joger! :)
That's that mystery solved.
Thanks so much