RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: geraldine96 on Friday 22 July 22 08:41 BST (UK)
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Dear ROOTSCHATTERS - I am researching an ancestor who was born in 1847 and died in 1917 in Sheffield. His 1st child was born in 1874 and therefor he must have married in 1872/3. His background is irish, and I have heard from the living family, he was catholic. However he married in Nottingham in 1908 at the Parish Church of St. Peter 'according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church. I have the marriage certificate which I recently ordered from Southport GRO. He is aged 61 and his wife 56. His wife is the mother of all his children according to the 1911 census - it looks as if they repeated their marriage ceremony - Is there a knowledgeable Rootschatter who can explain the multiple marriage custom (ie the same couple getting married twice) ? Thankyou for helping me out again Rootschat! Geraldine96
Edinburgh
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A common reason for a late marriage is that one of them was not free to marry.
Does the certificate say they were bachelor & spinster? Have you looked for a previous marriage for either of them?
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His 1st child was born in 1874 and therefor he must have married in 1872/3.
Why must they have married before their child was born ?
there are a number of explanations for why they waited until later in life -
1. as mentioned by bearkat
2. Their marriage was an irregular one
3. there was no marriage.
4. They did marry but either it was not recognised or they had no proof of this (1908/1909 saw the introduction of the old age pension)
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What does the 1911 census say about the number of years married?
Boo
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Just from my own background .. my parents were of different denomination; Dad was Roman Catholic and Mam was Church of England so they married in a register office in 1936.
Family story is that the local priest was not at all happy with this and persuaded them to have another ceremony at the local RC Church two years later. I have found the notation of this second marriage in my Dad's RC baptism record. Of course, there is no mention of the original registry office record in this RC baptism entry.
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Just from my own background .. my parents were of different denomination; Dad was Roman Catholic and Mam was Church of England so they married in a register office in 1936.
Family story is that the local priest was not at all happy with this and persuaded them to have another ceremony at the local RC Church two years later. I have found the notation of this second marriage in my Dad's RC baptism record. Of course, there is no mention of the original registry office record in this RC baptism entry.
But was this a church ceremony only or was the later church marriage also recorded in the civil records (as the one being discussed was)
Boo
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No, admittedly the second marriage ceremony at RC Church wasn't recorded in civil records.
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I have seen Catholic Church ceremonies a few years after an official marriage, civil or CoE, but not the other way round. That is, not a CoE after a Catholic marriage.
As has been said, these would be a marriage ‘in the eyes of the church’ but not a second civil marriage.
If a first marriage has not been located for the couple, I would look for a previous marriage for one or both parties.
This was suggested earlier.
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My grandmother was baptised at St Anthony RC, Liverpool in 1872, but her birth was not registered.
She married a protestant and all of the children grew up as protestants. However, in 1935, she had a certificate issued at the same church with the same baptism date as in 1872, although the date of issue was 1935. It may have been something to do with the lack of a birth certificate.
David
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I've got a couple who married twice.
Their first marriage was bigamous. The wife was already married, although apparently separated.
They married again once her first husband had died. I have no evidence to suggest that they were ever caught, and they appear to have gone through both marriages without incident.
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we have a couple in Hubbies family had children from 1873 but didnt marry till 1904 I took many years to find this and I think you will find this is more common than you imagine
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Dear ROOTSCHATTERS - I am researching an ancestor who was born in 1847 and died in 1917 in Sheffield. His 1st child was born in 1874 and therefor he must have married in 1872/3. His background is irish, and I have heard from the living family, he was catholic. However he married in Nottingham in 1908 at the Parish Church of St. Peter 'according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church. I have the marriage certificate which I recently ordered from Southport GRO. He is aged 61 and his wife 56. His wife is the mother of all his children according to the 1911 census - it looks as if they repeated their marriage ceremony - Is there a knowledgeable Rootschatter who can explain the multiple marriage custom (ie the same couple getting married twice) ?
Have you found birth registrations of children to confirm that wife of 1908 was their mother? (My Irish grandparents told fibs on 1911 census so that it seemed all children on census were from their marriage.)
Have you found the couple on each census 1881-1901?
Was the wife also Irish and/or Catholic? I've come across a few couples in 19th century whose marriage in a Catholic church in Ireland wasn't legally valid because they belonged to different denominations so they had a later wedding ceremony at a church of Ireland or registry Office. One couple was elderly and had several adult children when they legitimised their union. There were also cases of C of I men repudiating their Catholic wives and getting away with it because the wedding had been in a Catholic church.
If they ever lived in Scotland they may have had an irregular marriage.
Could they have married in a foreign country?
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I have a couple who married in their 50s, after the birth of seven children, plus an extra one for the wife, born before the couple had gotten together.
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Thanks to all of you who have replied; the post has generated a lot of interesting possibilities; i'll answer some of your questions with this latest post.
Tickety Boo - the 1911 census says they were married for 37 yrs. They had 8 children, 6 were still living.
bearkat - the marriage cert dated 1904 has the groom listed as a bachelor and the bride is a spinster. Each one has a different address but only the street is named. The marriage took place in Nottingham.
falkyrn - I estimated a possible marriage date based on the 1st child's dob but I haven't found any records to confirm there was an earlier marriage. I think the info you provided re introduction of the old age pension sounds convincing and explains their late marriage or remarriage.
maiden stone - the early civil birth records don't name the mother (no maiden name). There is a birth record of their 1st child (assumed 1st child)whose year of birth is 1875. The record does give both parents' names and the names correspond with the 1908 marriage cert and 1911 census. However you have suggested that a marriage in Scotland may not be registered/irregular - this is interesting because their child born in 1875 was born in Scotland, Perhaps the 1st marriage was held in Scotland. The bride didn't have Irish origins, her parents were church of England. All your replies have been v. interesting , I'll return to my research and see if I can find an earlier marriage which as some of you have suggested was considered irregular; it's abit of a mystery........thank srootschatters, geraldine96
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thanks for your reply lisajb, I have just posted a reply to answer earlier posts re the' more than one marriage ceremony; question and it looks as if late marriages weren't 'out of the ordinary'. Even after a couple have had a large family and lived together for a number of years. geraldine96
y
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My paternal grandfather and his first wife married twice with no divorce in between. There are two certificates. The first time was in 1927 in a Register Office. The second time was on the same day/month in 1930 in a church. The first certificate has their ages adjusted so the bride appears 4 years younger than the groom although she was actually 12 years older. On the second one she settled for appearing one year older than him. Using the same day/month seems very sensible. It is difficult enough remembering one wedding anniversary. Imagine having to remember two.
A few years later the bride was committed to an asylum with religious mania. I suspect that is related to her wanting to repeat the wedding in a church. Earlier in 1930 my grandfather's father died, leaving enough money to his only child to buy a house and presumably also enough to afford the church ceremony the bride wanted.
They divorced in 1946, shortly before my grandfather married the next door neighbour. I wonder if they had to consider whether there should be two divorces to balance the two marriages. The neighbour was also divorced. She worked as a solicitor's assistant. Maybe she got a trade discount on divorces.
So, in total my grandfather lived with three women and married three times, twice to the first one, not at all to the second one (Gwen, who already married someone else in 1932 when she was 22 and that groom pretended to be 39 but was actually 52 necessitating a later official adjustment to the marriage certificate) and once to the third one. The second one was my father's biological mother. My father didn't work out that he was illegitimate until the third one died in 1991. He thought it was hilarious and was minded to change the family name to Fitzbowley.
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the early civil birth records don't name the mother (no maiden name). There is a birth record of their 1st child (assumed 1st child)whose year of birth is 1875. The record does give both parents' names and the names correspond with the 1908 marriage cert and 1911 census. However you have suggested that a marriage in Scotland may not be registered/irregular - this is interesting because their child born in 1875 was born in Scotland, Perhaps the 1st marriage was held in Scotland.
Your post is confusing & contradicting...
You say "early civil birth records don't name the mother (no maiden name)"
but then say...
"There is a birth record of their 1st child (assumed 1st child)whose year of birth is 1875. The record does give both parents' names"
I'm not understanding the contradiction at all :-\
I don't understand any civil birth record not giving the maiden/former name of the mother i.e. can you please explain?
What is the exact info. given for the parents on the 1875 Scottish birth cert?
Annie
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sorry rosinish - I'll try and make that account clearer. Their 1st child has a birth record on the Scotland select births and baptism records (born 1875) The Scotland Select Births and Baptisms register Luckily gives the parents' names, the mother is identified using her maiden name . The other children all born between 1875 and 1889 have births recorded on the birth INDEX - that's what I meant to say in my earlier reply. The civil birth index for that timespan doesn't name the mother.
I would have to use the index to order a full birth certificate from the GRO Suoth'port to get the parents' details.
I use Ancestry to track down records. There are quite a few family trees on Ancestyr that are connected to the family I am interested in - so I can refer to research on these trees and double check it ygeraldine96
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If other children were born in England, then searching here would give thr mother’s maiden name.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
You need to log in but it is free.
That doesn’t seem to be the problem though. Do you have your couple in the 1871 census?
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I have a couple who married twice, admittedly only 1 day apart. The groom was RC & the bride CofE. The reason was the RC church did not recognise the couple as married so they had to have a ceremony where the bride had to use her birth surname although she had been married in a CofE church which made the marriage legal in the eyes of the state. (My couple actually had 2 certificates which were printed with the explanation in Family Tree magazine some years ago)
Maybe the second CofE marriage was to prove a marriage to obtain some legal benefit as the RC marriage alone would not have been recognised as legal in English law.
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Hello Geraldine96
Have you looked up the Scottish birth on the Scotlandspeople site ?
Scottish birth certificates have the date and place of the parents marriage on them.
I’m happy to look it up for you if you post the details.
Cheers
OFG
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Geraldine
The early birth index’s do have the mothers maiden name on them, but you would have to search on the GRO website, as they were not available when first put on ancestry etc.
Jon
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What is the exact info. given for the parents on the 1875 Scottish birth cert?
Does it give the mother as X Surname of husband, M S (maiden surname) Y
or
Does it give her name as X Y without the MS?
If they were married it should give date & place of the marriage.
Annie
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tahnks heywood mvann rosinish oldfashionedgirl, ianscann, I turned to the gro index, scrolled through the relevant decades; I found 3 births that belong to the family I'm researching. Are there any other free bmd records I could check. The family lived in Blackburn, lancs. Nottingham and Sheffield.
I'll see if I can locate the earlier marriage (probably took place in 1873), place - Scotland. it's useful to know that the select birth cert in scotland should include a reference to their marriage, thanks for that info. I DO have the 1871 census that shows the spouse aged 20/9 (difficult to read his age as untidy lettering) but he's unmarried in 1871 - so earlier marriage took place between 1871 and 1874/5. geraldine96
1271. think g
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For Lancashire records try Lancs OPC
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
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You say that the spouse (he) was unmarried in 1871 - what about the female?
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I have a g/uncle who married the same woman twice using different names for himself. The family name was changed before WW1 as it had German origins. He married in the parish church in 1932 claiming to be a bachelor (despite having been married before to someone who had died) to his spinster bride using his given name of Augustus Thiel. He then married her again in 1933 at the Registry Office using his changed name of Alexander Shiel and claiming to be a widower and his bride a spinster again. I have no idea why or how they got away with it.
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For Lancashire records try Lancs OPC
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
Also Lancashire BMD
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My 2xGreat Grandfather William Beaver of Portsea had 8 children with Jemima Williams-West before they married in 1853. Only their last child, born after this marriage was legitimate. On their marriage certificate they are recorded as being Bachelor and Spinster .
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Hello Geraldine
Thanks for your PM with the information.
I have been rooting around Scotlandspeople and found several things out.
My goodness that family got around a bit.
Firstly they were married on 15th June 1873 in Preston. This was confirmed on Catherines birth certificate.
She was born on 11th May 1874 in *****hills ? Annan, Dumfriesshire and I think her fathers occupation reads 'power loom weaver'.
This would tie in as in the 1861 census Arthur Kavanagh is 13 a cotton weaver living with his family in Blackburn.
I discovered that Arthur and Martha had two other childred born in Scotland.
Joseph in 1887 and John in 1889 both born in Edinburgh.
Their birth certificates also confirm the 1873 preston marriage.
Their fathers occupation is listed as a life assurance agent on both.
Hope this helps. We are not allowed to post full images on here but if you PM me your email address I am happy to send you the copies. Some of them are rather feint and hard to read but if you crop the relevant words you could post them on here and ask for help deciphering them.
Cheers
OFG
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So was this marriage in 1873 found in the records? Or is the only 'record' of it is that this info was given when the children's births were registered in Scotland?
(Just nosey, I like to know how things turn out).
As I can't seem to find a marriage for an Arthur to a Martha in 1873 that took place in Preston - assuming that's Preston in Lancs? No matter what denomination (or not) they were, there should be something for them if it took place?
Boo
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As I can't seem to find a marriage for an Arthur to a Martha in 1873 that took place in Preston - assuming that's Preston in Lancs? No matter what denomination (or not) they were, there should be something for them if it took place?
Could it have been Prescot? Although the only Arthur Cavanagh marriage I could find in Prescot was to Bridget Loughlan in 1875.
What was Catherine's maiden surname?
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I've not read the whole thread but thought I would mention this occurrence.
I have a definite double marriage in a close-ish cousin.
My 1C2R married the same woman twice:
April 1925 - Civil marriage
Dec 1926 - Church marriage
They are both in the GRO indexes as Q2 1925 and Q4 1926.
I have both certificates. The marriages took place in the same RD. The Reg Office was a few miles from the location of the church. The C of E marriage was officiated by his brother who was ordained.
Their first child was born in Q3 1927.
I don't think any of the family were aware of this and the daughter never said anything to me about it when she was giving me various photos, etc.
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This would tie in as in the 1861 census Arthur Kavanagh is 13 a cotton weaver living with his family in Blackburn.
Kavanagh surname variants in Blackburn from church registers. Kavanaugh, Cavanagh, Cavanah, Cavanaugh, Caveney. Perhaps Canavan.
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I’m a latecomer to this thread.
Firstly they were married on 15th June 1873 in Preston.
Could you perhaps give more details and say where you found this marriage, which you say is confirmed by the birth certificates of Catherine, Joseph and John?
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I’m a latecomer to this thread.
Firstly they were married on 15th June 1873 in Preston.
Could you perhaps give more details and say where you found this marriage, which you say is confirmed by the birth certificates of Catherine, Joseph and John?
This from Catherine's birth reg. It's only as good as the couple say. No proof required.
Add - informant was the mother.
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Thanks Gadget.
My thinking was that Old-fashioned-girl said that the marriage date was ‘confirmed’ by the three Scottish birth certificates, implying that she had actually found details of the marriage itself :-\
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OFG said
'This was confirmed on Catherines birth certificate.'
The clip that I attached was from the birth certificate on SP.
I don't see it as confirmation, only that that was what Martha told the registrar.
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The entry of parents on the 1874 birth cert.
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Martha's maiden surname is Aspin.
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I think the reason that the couple married in 1908 maybe because of the introuction of Old Age Pensions:
Historically, the "Old Age Pension" was introduced in 1909 in the United Kingdom (which included all of Ireland at that time). Following the passage of the Old-Age Pensions Act 1908 a pension of 5 shillings per week (25p, equivalent, using the Consumer Price Index, to £28 in present-day terms),[2] or 7s.6d per week (equivalent to £42/week today) for a married couple, was payable to persons with an income below £21 per annum (equivalent to £2300 today), The qualifying age was 70, and the pensions were subject to a means test
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_in_the_United_Kingdom
I've come across this as a reason for marriage a good while ago and can't find the reference at the moment.
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I think the reason that the couple married in 1908 maybe because of the introuction of Old Age Pensions:
Historically, the "Old Age Pension" was introduced in 1909 in the United Kingdom (which included all of Ireland at that time). Following the passage of the Old-Age Pensions Act 1908 a pension of 5 shillings per week (25p, equivalent, using the Consumer Price Index, to £28 in present-day terms),[2] or 7s.6d per week (equivalent to £42/week today) for a married couple, was payable to persons with an income below £21 per annum (equivalent to £2300 today), The qualifying age was 70, and the pensions were subject to a means test
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_in_the_United_Kingdom
I've come across this as a reason for marriage a good while ago and can't find the reference at the moment.
I'd agree that this seems like a probable explanation. However, given that the man was working within the life insurance business, he'd know how to go about getting a copy marriage cert so I am still veering towards the conclusion that there was no previous 'formal, registered marriage' back in 1873.
Which makes me (still) wonder if either of the parties were not free to marry in 1873.
Not my family, so this doesn't bother me at all, but if it 'was' my family I still be looking for something to explain it all.
Boo
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"Thanks for your PM with the information."
I don't see a need to PM anyone unless it's a secret?
That record of birth was available for you to download from SP to find the info. as to if/when/where they were married.
There are many people on RC with knowledge of different records who may have been willing to help on the open forum.
"they were married on 15th June 1873 in Preston. This was confirmed on Catherines birth certificate.
She was born on 11th May 1874 in *****hills ? Annan, Dumfriesshire and I think her fathers occupation reads 'power loom weaver'"
Preston, Berwickshire or Preston, Lancashire?
There's no record of a marriage in Scotland on the indexes...
However, there are records of Irregular Marriages which can be accessed via different archives/libraries etc. although possibly at a cost depending on who holds the record...
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//research/irregular-border-and-scottish-runaway-marriages.pdf
Possibly Leadhills?
"This would tie in as in the 1861 census Arthur Kavanagh is 13 a cotton weaver living with his family in Blackburn."
Blackburn, Lancashire or Blackburn, West Lothian, Scotland?
"We are not allowed to post full images
Some of them are rather feint and hard to read"
You can 'Report an issue' (top right side of image) being difficult to decipher & request a better scan on SP site, they're very helpful & quick to respond.
Annie
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Annie - see my clips - MS is Aspin
Which makes me (still) wonder if either of the parties were not free to marry in 1873.
Not my family, so this doesn't bother me at all, but if it 'was' my family I still be looking for something to explain it all.
Boo
So far, nothing at all for a marriage between them before 1908. I've used broad variations of names. I can't find a previous marriage for Martha either. 1911 shows that both were born Lancashire.
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"they were married on 15th June 1873 in Preston. This was confirmed on Catherines birth certificate.
She was born on 11th May 1874 in *****hills ? Annan, Dumfriesshire and I think her fathers occupation reads 'power loom weaver'"
Preston, Berwickshire or Preston, Lancashire?
There's no record of a marriage in Scotland on the indexes
On the two snips supplied by Gadget (see replies 38 & 39) it simply says ‘Preston’.
"This would tie in as in the 1861 census Arthur Kavanagh is 13 a cotton weaver living with his family in Blackburn."
Blackburn, Lancashire or Blackburn, West Lothian, Scotland?
Blackburn Lancashire
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One of the birth registrations did say Preston Lancashire, Jennifer. Sorry that I didn't put it up.
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One of the birth registrations did say Preston Lancashire, Jennifer. Sorry that I didn't put it up.
Oh, sorry - I didn’t see it on the snips you posted :-\
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Sorry.
Here it is
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Interesting that a second daughter, Margaret, was born 1885, Kensington, London
1901 - 4376/58/18
Also others listed on this census.
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I've been trying to follow the family's whereabouts and Arthur's occupations. So far, I have:
1871 - Blackburn RG10/4173/118/8 Cotton Weaver
1874 - Annan - Power Loom Weaver (Catherine's birth cert)
1876 - Worthington , Lancs (Mary's entry in 1891) - Wigan RD Q4 1875 on birth reg MMN Aspen
1881 - Nottingham RG11/3332/113/28 Colliery labourer
1882 - Nottingham (Gertrude's entry on 1891) Q4 1881 Nottingham on birth reg MMN Aspin
1885 - Kensington, London (Margaret's entry on 1891) - Q3 1884 on birth reg MMN Aspin
1886 -Edinburgh Assurance Agent (Joseph's birth cert))
1887 - Scotland (Joseph on 1891 ) - see above
1889 - Edinburgh Insurance Superintendant (John's birth cert)
1890 - Scotland (John on 1891) - see above
1891 - Sheffield RG12/3831/39/31 Superintendant of ?? (Insur written in by coder)
1901 - Sheffield - RG13/4376/58/18 Life Assurance Agent
and retired by the next census
Have I missed any?
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Not that it’s of huge significance, but I think the 1891 occupation is Superintendent of Pr(…….) Ass(uran)ce
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He seems to have had a mobile and varied life!
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Not that it’s of huge significance, but I think the 1891 occupation is Superintendent of Pr(…….) Ass(uran)ce
"The man from the Pru" ? ;)
Perhaps Arthur was being prudent when he married in 1908.
2 of my granddad's great uncles who were cotton spinners in Lancashire became insurance agents in later life.
Where was Catherine from?
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Where was Catherine from?
His daughter Catherine was born in Dumfriesshire, see reply #29.
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Where was Catherine from?
His daughter Catherine was born in Dumfriesshire, see reply #29.
Sorry, I meant the wife, Martha Aspin.
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Sorry, I meant the wife, Martha Aspin.
Blackburn
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Martha I think was from Blackburn.
I wonder if Arthur was an agent with Caledonian Assurance as their main office was Edinburgh.
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As another poster has said, Martha married under her maiden name so maybe they just didn't marry until 1908.
Arthur Vincent Kavanagh and Martha Aspin , Nottingham, Q4, Vol 78, page 665, Nottingham