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Independent Islands => Alderney, Guernsey, Jersey, Sark => Topic started by: Hollyhocker on Wednesday 06 July 22 18:37 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
You might remember me on here a while back trying to trace my grandmother Gertrude Ross (Nee Stephen) who gave my dad away at birth in Edinburgh in 1930.
I managed to uncover that Gertrude's Aunt Isabella Stephen died in Jersey on 5th February 1947. This piqued my interest in the island and I wondered what she was doing there so far from home (Isabella lived in Aberdeen all her life) after the war.
Since then, I also uncovered that Gertrude had another daughter before my dad called Joan Isabel Ross. Born 28th January 1926. I started looking at the re-entry cards for Jersey after WW2 and found application records for a Harold Arthur Goldsmith, a Gertrude Goldsmith and a Joan Isabel Ross. Bingo! It seems that Gertrude had re-married Harold Goldsmith. However, although the record states they were married in GB, I can't find any marriage certificates for them and Michele in the Jersey Archives (who has been ever so helpful) says she doesn't see any evidence of them moving to Jersey after the war. I checked the electoral register for the Charles Street address in Milford Haven and Gertrude and Harold are both there in 1945, but Gertrude is not there after that. Harold continues at that address in 1946 and 1947 but has left by 1948. So I've lost Gertrude again!
Michele in the archives found the will and testament of Harold Arthur Goldsmith who died in Jersey in 1975. I have ordered the document but not seen it yet. Michele tells me there is mention in the will of Harold's stepdaughter Joan Isabel, but no mention of Gertrude at all.
I wonder if any of you loved people based over there might be able to help me and see if there is anything you can dig up relating to Gertrude/Harold/Joan living in Jersey? This has been a family mystery for years and I would love to find out what happened to my grandmother and try and find answers as to why she gave my dad away at birth.
I would love to come over to the island to search the archives myself but unfortunately I have a young child and have neither the time or the funds to do so.
I'm really hoping someone on here might be able to help me. 🤞 Many thanks for your time. 😘
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According to a tree on Ancestry - Harold Arthur Goldsmith was born in China
He is shown as the father on the Jersey marriage of Ivy Helen Goldsmith to John Frederick Edward O'Connor - 26.6.1937 His occ is Quartermaster Sgt RGA
Harold signed as a witness as did Helen Mary Goldsmith - so his wife was still alive in 1937
Ivy's birthplace is shown as Devonport. Freebmd shows birth 1912 - mmn Court
1911 marriage in Devonport - Harold A Goldsmith to Helen M Court
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Harold Goldsmith is on the 1911 in Plymouth - b 1885 Jersey (not China!!) - Bombadier in the RGA
1891 for Jersey shows parents as James A b 1848 England & Mary I b 1858 St Peter Jersey
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Harold Goldsmith is on the 1911 in Plymouth - b 1885 Jersey (not China!!) - Bombadier in the RGA
1891 for Jersey shows parents as James A b 1848 England & Mary I b 1858 St Peter Jersey
Free part of the 1921. Son of same name born in China
Harold Arthur
Goldsmith
1914
Hong Kong, China
St Helen's
Isle of Wight
Hampshire
Also possibles
Francis Richard
Goldsmith
1918
Singapore
The mother.
Helen Mary
Goldsmith
1885
Exeter, Devon, England
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In 1973 Helen Mary is said to be widow of Harold Arthur
Will and Testament of Helen Mary Court, widow of Harold Arthur Goldsmith, of Seaview, Millbrook, St Lawrence. Dated 20/11/1970. [Includes one closed document]
Reference: D/Y/B1/193/58
Date: August 9th 1973
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Tree on Ancestry
It has the 1914 Harold Arthur marrying Gertrude Ross
Hollyhocker - if you have Ancestry access you may want to take a look - 1925 marriage cert for Gertrude Stephen to John Fowler Ross
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/157924752/person/322072851770/story
Tree has John dying 1989 Manchester so was there a divorce? If no divorce - no marriage
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So, it is the son Harold Arthur born in China in 1914 who is said to be married to Gertrude.
Sorry Hollyhocker. Brain not working properly this morning ;D
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There is this burial on FindMyPast
But the images are no help. In a common grave, having died at Brompton hospital.
Goldsmith
Gertrude
1907
—
1954
Middlesex, Brompton Cemetery Records
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I saw that too & wondered if it was her. She was born 1907
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Thanks everyone. Yes I think it's Harold Arthur Goldsmith Jr born 1914 who married Gertrude.
Harold Arthur Senior I think is the father who married Helen Mary.
The mixed up ancestry tree is mine! Apologies I just added the Harold Arthur Goldsmith as a husband to Gertrude with his DOB to see if it added any "hints". Unfortunately it didn't.
I also saw the death of a Gertrude Goldsmith in Brompton Hospital. I'm going to wait to see the will of Harold Arthur Goldsmith Jr to find out Joan's married name and address and if it is London, then I will probably order that death certificate. It's hard to know whether Gertrude and Harold were still together when either of them died. I'm trying to work out where Gertrude disappeared to between 1946 and 1954 (if her death is the Brompton one) and also her whereabouts between 1930 (when she gave my dad away) and 1945. I thought she may have moved to Jersey, but maybe she left Harold. I can't find a marriage cert for them so if she did leave him, she may have reverted back to her former married or maiden name. Thanks for all your help and research. Really appreciate it x
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Do post details when you know them. This and your other threads have been so interesting :)
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Do post details when you know them. This and your other threads have been so interesting :)
I absolutely will! I am so grateful to everyone's help on this forum and elsewhere. It's been hours and hours and hours of research but hopefully I'm starting to turn a corner with it. Really hope I can get some answers!
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But so rewarding. (It took me 25 years to track down my grandfather 🥂🥂)
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John Fowler Ross - Gertrude's husband - only died in 1989 in Manchester. They would have had to divorce for her to marry Goldsmith. Have you already checked for a divorce?
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Re the marriages of John Fowler Ross, see Reply #27 here...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=859799.0
Annie
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Evening everyone! I received the Last will and testament of Harold Arthur Goldsmith today! I think the mention of the "belt of double florins" is wonderful!
No mention of Gertrude in the will unfortunately (but as expected) but there is mention of Joan, who married and became Joan Tattersfield of 2, Penbury Street, Worcester. I found a death for Joan in 2013 unfortunately. I found births of [redacted female] Tattersfield in 1955, Worcester and [redacted female] Tattersfield in 1953, both in Worcester. One married Mr Hobbs in Worcester in 1977. The other married Mr Baylay in Worcester in 1979. Fingers crossed they might be alive today and able to shed some light on their mother and perhaps Gertrude?
However, I can't find a birth certificate for Stephen Goldsmith (mentioned in the will). Maybe he was born in Jersey and that's why I can't find him. Was he Gertrude's son?? Have checked Jerripedia but can't find anything. Can anyone help me? And still can't find a marriage between Gertrude and Harold Goldsmith.
I'm also struggling to find the marriage between Joan Isabel Ross and her husband Tattersall. 🤷🏼♀️
Have uploaded Jpegs of the original PDF. Not great quality but think it's the best I can do.
If anyone is able to help check the records in Jersey I would be immensely grateful!
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Hi
Rootschat has a strict no living persons policy so you need to remove the details you have posted re children
Click on the modify button to edit your post
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Death notice for Joan has undertakers address. You could contact them to ask if they can forward a letter to family or give you contact details.
Husband is George J. M. Tattersfield b 17 April 1922. Died 2000.
Added..George John Miller Tattersfield
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Death notice for Joan has undertakers address. You could contact them to ask if they can forward a letter to family or give you contact details.
Husband is George J. M. Tattersfield b 17 April 1922. Died 2000.
Added..George John Miller Tattersfield
Thanks SO much for this. Really useful. Will get in touch with them. Out of interest how did you find who the husband was? Were they married in Jersey? Thanks again. Really helpful
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I found Joan on the electoral rolls (on Ancestry). He is with her.
still looking for marriage
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I found Joan on the electoral rolls (on Ancestry). He is with her.
still looking for marriage
Thank you!
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I’ve checked newspapers, don’t see any marriage notice.
Jersey BDMs that late aren’t online are they? I can’t even see an index.
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I’ve checked newspapers, don’t see any marriage notice.
Jersey BDMs that late aren’t online are they? I can’t even see an index.
I don't think they are. I've really struggled finding any BMD in Jersey. Have always replied on the lovely people at Jersey Archives to help and also the kindness of Rootschatters on here based in Jersey
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GJM Tattersfield was born in Keighley Yorkshire - mmn Johnson
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Hi
I've come into this discussion quite late. There is a Stephen Goldsmith in the school register for Brighton Road School, St Helier. He started school on 28th Feb 1951. His father was Harold and they were living at 29 Garden Lane, St Helier. Date of birth was 24th Feb 1945 in "London". He had transferred from St Mark's School. I can't see a birth in FreeBMD for that date, only one in Mar 1944 and one in Mar 1946. The latter father's surname is Goldsmith and mother's previous name Goldsmith(?).
Have you seen the occupation registration cards for the Goldsmith's living at Sea View, Millbrook?
Stewart
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Thanks SO much for this Stewart. This is incredibly useful.
The births you found in 1944 and 1946- were they in Jersey or elsewhere in the UK?
I found a birth for Stephen J Goldsmith in 1946 in Hatfield, Herts (mother's maiden name listed as Goldsmith) which I thought could be promising. No idea why they would be in Hatfield though.
The 24th Feb 1945 London birth needs further investigation I think. I wonder whether the child wasn't originally listed as Goldsmith??
When you say "occupation registration cards" with them living at Seaview, do you mean the applications to return to Jersey post occupation? I've searched the applications to return to the Island post WWII and these documents were really useful. In fact, that is what helped me bring all my research together. Joan's original birth certificate states she was "adopted" and it was just luck when trawling through the Jersey archives I found Joan Isabel Ross and a "Gertrude" Goldsmith in the applications to return and put two and two together!! It's really been a turning point in my research!
Thanks so much for your help Stewart. Really useful.
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Hi
Registration cards were issued to all adults during the German Occupation 1940-1945. Any children were listed on the back. The cards give details of the holder and in most cases a photo. Copies can be downloaded if you are a member of Jersey Archives. The Goldsmith's listed are all living at the same address.
Francis Richard Goldsmith, of Sea View, Millbrook, St Lawrence born 23/05/1918
Harold Arthur Goldsmith, of Sea View, Millbrook, St Lawrence born 11/09/1884
Helen Mary Goldsmith, née Court, of Sea View, Millbrook, St Lawrence born 04/02/1885
Roland Lawrence Oliver Goldsmith, of Sea View, Millbrook, St Lawrence born 07/03/1925
Mary Bridget Daly, née Keating, of Sea View, St Lawrence, born 29/08/1917
Lilian May Bichard, née Le Maistre, of Sea View, St Lawrence, born 13/02/1908
Stanley John Bichard, of Sea View, St Lawrence, born 06/11/1904, Doreen May Bichard, Margaret Lilian Bichard, registered as children on back of form
These are the births for Stephen Goldsmith between 1944 and 1946
Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Mar 1944
Goldsmith Stephen C Emptage Thanet 2a 2614
Births Mar 1946
Goldsmith Stephen J Goldsmith Hatfield 3a 1921
Hope that helps.
Stewart
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Hi Stewart. Thanks for this.
The Harold Arthur you mention here is Harold Snr. Born 1884. I'm after Harold Jr who was born 1914. Harold Jr left Jersey in March 1940. He applied to re-enter (along with his "wife" Gertrude [can't find a marriage certificate] and his step daughter Joan. I'm told by Jersey Archives that there was no evidence to suggest they actually moved back though (although Harold Arthur died in Jersey in 1975) so maybe they did??? I'm curious to know whether S Goldsmith was the son of Gertrude or another woman maybe Harold was previously married to??
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The trouble with both those births is in the Will there is no second name.
The Will gives Joan’s second name, so it seems unlikely he would leave out a second name off his own son. (Who could still be alive so I haven’t repeated his name here)
On the other hand, I like to think his Forename reflects Gertrude’s maiden name.
Still, given that school information, you might have to take a punt.
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His son's second name is listed as S***** Goldsmith is it not?
I'm just baffled why I can't find a birth certificate.
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No, I mean his name is listed as S…….. Goldsmith, not. S……..J…….Goldsmith. whereas Joan is Joan Isabel
Well you might have found a birth cert if he is one of those two. You won’t know unless you order them. By now, given her history, it’s probably easier not to put any surnames other than goldsmith on the birth certificate!!!
Fingers crossed you get a positive reply from the undertakers and can find out from that family.
Added…or it may be incorrectly indexed. You never know!
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Also, just thinking out loud... If S**** started school on 28th Feb 1951 and was living at 29 Garden Lane, St Helier, this would suggest that Harold Arthur, Gertrude and Joan did indeed move back to Jersey after the war (as they intended).
Can anyone advise what records are available out there to check for Jersey? Or would anyone mind doing a search for me? I know there's only a limited amount of stuff on Ancestry. Not much after 1940. I'm really struggling because I'm not over there and have limited experience at researching the archives, let alone in Jersey!
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Goldsmith Gertrude 1907 — 1954 Middlesex, Brompton Cemetery Records
Harold Jr left Jersey in March 1940. He applied to re-enter (along with his "wife" Gertrude [can't find a marriage certificate] and his step daughter Joan. I'm told by Jersey Archives that there was no evidence to suggest they actually moved back though (although Harold Arthur died in Jersey in 1975) so maybe they did??? I'm curious to know whether S Goldsmith was the son of Gertrude or another woman maybe Harold was previously married to??
Why don't you get the DC for Gertrude who looks to be yours then once you have info. from that you can work from there.
Too much speculating in my view?
Annie
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Hi Annie
Yes I'll do that and order the DC. Due to limited funds I was just trying to research other avenues first to try and verify that death before ordering the cert. But you're probably right so will order it. It will put me out of my misery one way or the other!
Still keen to find out where Stephen Goldsmith was born and who his mother was. Hopefully also I might be able to find living relatives who might be able to shed some light on my grandmother, who she was, what she was like and why she gave my dad away at birth
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Referring to this very good lead .. ‘I've come into this discussion quite late. There is a "…….. Goldsmith in the school register for Brighton Road School, St Helier. He started school on 28th Feb 1951. His father was Harold and they were living at 29 Garden Lane, St Helier. Date of birth was 24th Feb 1945 in "London". He had transferred from St Mark's School. I can't see a birth in FreeBMD for that date, only one in Mar 1944 and one in Mar 1946. The latter father's surname is Goldsmith and mother's previous name Goldsmith(?).
I wondered if it might be possible to follow this up .. and .. might there be a reason for giving perhaps a wrong date of birth at time of admission to Brighton Road School. Would the St Marks records have a reason for moving school, or just a natural progression because of age. And is there a way of finding the day he left the last school. As I say, just wondering!
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I’ll get in touch with Jersey archives about it on Monday. Their website shows they do hold some archive material for St Marks but only from 1959 onwards which would miss out the years we are looking for…
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SG left Brighton Road School 30th Jul 1952 and was transferred to St Marks. I cannot see a register for this new school online.
Stewart
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Thanks for looking Stewart. Hope your enquiry, Holly, gains further info.
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Had a reply from the lovely people at Jersey Archives re. S****** Goldsmith’s schooling and DOB…
I’ve had a look in the admission register for St Mark’s School and it gives exactly the same details as the Brighton Road register, including date of birth as 24/02/1945 and place of birth as ‘London’. I can’t see that we hold any more information here that would help with confirming his date and place of birth I’m afraid.
I wonder why he transferred schools?
It’s baffling why I can’t find a birth certificate for him in the U.K.! All VERY odd! I did find a birth certificate for a S****** S****** (same as Gertrude’s maiden name) in 1945 in Glasgow, Scotland but that’s the closest thing I’ve found so far
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The Jersey Archives also looked for a marriage for S****** Goldsmith but couldn't find one on Jersey.
Does anyone on here know whether it is possible to search the electoral rolls for Jersey between 1930 and 1939 and from 1945 onwards?
I just need to try and establish when Harold Goldsmith and Gertrude Goldsmith/Ross/Stephen were living there. And as a relative newby to all this I'm not sure what resources are available.
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Hi everyone! I'm not sure how to mark this enquiry "solved" but it is! I've found Gertrude!
I few of you on here wanted an update if I'd made progress... well here it is!! 😃
Gertrude died age 47 in Brompton Hospital in London in 1954. Apparently she was ill while on Jersey and went to Brompton to get treatment and died there. She is buried in a common grave in Brompton Cemetery. I spoke with her son yesterday and it turns out that he was adopted by Gertrude at 2 days old. I wonder whether this was through some sort of guilt after abandoning her own son (my father)??
I would still be interested to know more about their life together on the island. According to their son they moved to Jersey in 1945. They then ran the Noah's ark Hotel and later moved to 29, Garden Lane, St Helier. I'm not sure if there is electoral roll access to the public in Jersey but if anyone is over there and doesn't mind checking the electoral roll for me, I would be ever so grateful!
Does anyone on here know anything about the Noah's Ark Hotel?
It's strange, the original archivist at Jersey Archives told me she couldn't see any evidence of them living there after the war but they were all there (Gertrude Goldmsmith [known as 'Pat]), Harold Arthur Goldsmith, Joan Isabel Ross and Sxxxxx Goldsmith. If anyone on here living in Jersey can find any more info on the family I would be extremely grateful. I am very limited on what I can search being over here.
Thanks again for all your help! Hopefully from now on my genealogy searches can be done as a hobby rather than an obsession! 😂
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Thank you for posting. It has been so interesting. How nice of S to be willing to speak to you.
You can mark the thread completed by ticking the completed at the bottom under the window at your next reply.
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Thank you! Hopefully now marked as completed!
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I've found Gertrude!
Gertrude died age 47 in Brompton Hospital in London in 1954. Apparently she was ill while on Jersey and went to Brompton to get treatment and died there. She is buried in a common grave in Brompton Cemetery. I spoke with her son yesterday and it turns out that he was adopted by Gertrude at 2 days old. I wonder whether this was through some sort of guilt after abandoning her own son (my father)??
Does anyone on here know anything about the Noah's Ark Hotel?
It's strange, the original archivist at Jersey Archives told me she couldn't see any evidence of them living there after the war but they were all there (Gertrude Goldmsmith [known as 'Pat]), Harold Arthur Goldsmith, Joan Isabel Ross and Sxxxxx Goldsmith. If anyone on here living in Jersey can find any more info on the family I would be extremely grateful. I am very limited on what I can search being over here.
Great news to have found Gertrude & of course other info; not least her 'adopted' son!
I'm sure it must've caused varying emotions given the history of/for your father :-*
I really hope being in contact with S* will help to bring closure to a lifelong query & it would be good if S & your father could meet & discuss things privately.
Good luck in whatever decisions are made.
You've marked your post as 'Completed' i.e. others who may be new to the forum/thread may think you no longer need any info?
I have found when being in touch by telephone to different authorities, it all depends on the personal interest of the person who takes your call!
Some (possibly older folks) are actually interested in the 'genealogical' side & go to lengths to help whereas the younger generation don't really care & can't be bothered to exert themselves to finding out anything beyond their own knowledge, sadly!? :-\
Annie
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I can confirm that HA Goldsmith lived at Noahs Ark Hotel from 1948/9 to 1952. It was listed as a guest house rather than a hotel. It was at 5, Esplanade, St Helier and no longer exists.
From 1952 to 1963, he is resident at 29, Garden Lane, St Heler.
The type of electoral roll you have in the UK doesn't exists here although almanacs list occupants by residence in the main parishes.
Stewart
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Wonderful! Thanks so much Stewart! I really appreciate it. Can I also clarify, was there any mention of the family at the Noah's ark guesthouse pre- 1948? I'm just trying to establish when they moved there/bought the place. I suspect they were there in 1947 as this was the address that Gertrude's Auntie Isabella died.