RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: grovesfamily on Monday 04 July 22 00:47 BST (UK)
-
Hi everyone.
I've hit a bit of a mystery regarding Henry Groves (b. 1854 Leeds, Yorks) and I'm hoping somebody on Rootschat might be willing to help me crack it.
Henry Groves was born one of 10 children to Charles and Martha Groves (nee Bigg), both working in theatre and constantly travelling. Henry and his brothers and sisters were all subject to a childhood on the stage and as such its difficult for them to keep track of their own ages and lies were probably told about the children's ages to make them appear more employable. This confusion sets in for all the children as they enter adulthood. I only mention all this to explain why Henry's age recorded in official documentation during his lifetime has no consistency, which only adds to the dilemma I have, which is the possibility that there may well be two Henrys. Two Henrys born in Leeds in the same period. Two Henrys with the same occupation. Two Henrys ending up in Manchester. For me, this is too coincidental but I can't dismiss the possibility.
In the 1871 census Henry lives at home with his mother Martha and his siblings. She is widowed and runs a boarding house for travelling theatricals at 15 Robertson St., Manchester. His occupation is "stable boy" and his age is given as 15.
According to marriage records, on 28 Feb 1876 Henry (age given as 20) marries Mary Elizabeth Avison in Manchester. His occupation is "Coachman" with an address at 21 Grove Street. His father's name is Charles Groves and his occupation "Comedian". Among the witnesses is either his mother or sister, both of whom are named Martha Groves.
In the 1881 Census, Henry (now recorded as 23 years old) is living at his mother's address at 25 Clifford Street in Chorlton-upon-Medlock, Manchester. His occupation is "Groom" with his birthplace as Leeds, Yorkshire. This is the last document I have connecting him specifically to this family. He is also listed as "Married" but Mary Elizabeth isn't on the record. In fact I can't find a death record, a record of divorce or a census entry, for Mary Elizabeth Groves after their marriage.
By February 1883 Henry Groves is living in Liverpool and baptizing his son, Herbert Groves (b.1883), with his (wife?) Nelly at the Paris Church of St. Peter. Occupation is "Coachman" and his abode is given as Old Swan. On Herbert's birth certificate his mother's maiden name is given as "Robinson"
In September 1884 and still in Liverpool, Henry and Nellie (note the change in spelling) baptize a second child, a daughter, Ethel, at All Saint's Church, Stoneycroft. Henry is listed as "Coachman" and the family are living at Bolan Street.
In the census of 1891 the family are living at 3 Herbert Street in Hulme, Manchester. Henry's age is 31 (Nellie is 28) and his occupation is "cab driver / groom", born Leeds, Yorks. Herbert and Ethel are also both there, registered as born in Liverpool, along with more children: Henry, Arthur, Nellie and Clarence, all listed as born in Manchester.
On 10 Aug 1892, we have a marriage certificate for a Henry Groves and Nellie Robinson at St. Clement, Salford, Lancs. Henry is listed as "bachelor", occupation is "cabdriver" and his father, Charles Groves (deceased), is listed as "Traveller". Nellie is listed "spinster", with her father as William Robinson (deceased). Their address is 44 Grantham Street. No ages are given for either of them. Their witnesses are Richard Phoenix and Jane Wilson. Interestingly, Nellie signs the document but Henry leaves an "X" mark. On the document in the 1876 marriage to Mary Elizabeth Avison he signs his name.
On July 20 1893 the couple baptize five children at St. Mary's, Hulme. They are Florence (b. 19 Jun 1892), Clarence (b. 13 Sep 1891), Nellie (b. 18 Jun 1889), Arthur (1 Aug 1887), and Harry (9 Feb 1886). The address given is 20 Hancock St. and Henry's occupation is "Shop Keeper".
By the 1901 census, the family resides at 32 Bradshaw St., Hulme. Henry's age is given as 40 and Nellie is 38. Henry's occupation is "Newsagent" (own account). The couple have another child on record: Harold (4 yrs).
In 1911 census, the Groves are living at 104 Mytton St., Hulme. Henry is listed as "Harry" with his birthplace recorded as Manchester and not Leeds. The census form is filled in by his son-in-law Albert Clarke who I think made this error. Henry (Harry) is now recorded as 55 years old and Nellie is 46. Henry is listed as having no occupation. The form declares they have been married for 28 years. Which, if true, would have them married in 1882 or 1883. I cannot find any documentation to support this.
In the 1921 census the family lives at 40 Radnor Street, Hulme. Henry is listed as 60 years old, with Nellie as 58. Henry's birthplace is recorded as Yorkshire Leeds, and in the occupation field: "blind and infirm last 30 years" with the added text "previous tram driver in Liverpool".
There is a death record for Henry on 21 Jul 1924 at the Radnor Street address, with his daughter Florence in attendance and his age is given as 70, which tallies with a 1854 birth in Leeds.
But is Henry the son of Charles and Martha? What happened to his first marriage to Mary Elizabeth Avison? Where is the cert for Henry and Nellie's 82 or 83 marriage? Were they living out of wedlock with children prior to an 1892 marriage? Are there two Henry Groves? If so, what happened to the Henry who is married to Mary Elizabeth?
Any help would be hugely appreciated. Thankyou!
-
Are you researching the origins of a direct ancestor.?
Of the numerous people named here, who have you confirmed to be your direct ancestor, at whatever stage of generation?
-
Henry is my great-grandfather. I descend from his son, Clarence.
-
Google WikiMili.com- Groves family, which confirms Henry as son of Charles and Martha. Henry's grt. grandaughter - Linda Groves- is married in 1968 to Liverpool comedian George Roper. Also lists all the siblings.
-
Fascinating, especially for theatre people I imagine. Thankyou. I am glad that information exists.
Herbert, who is Linda;s grandfather, is indeed the brother of my grandfather Clarence which would make Linda and myself second cousins.
The question is, is their father Henry the son of Charles and Martha? Where is the Henry who married Mary Elizabeth Avison in 1876? Is that Henry the same Henry who had children with Nellie Robinson? That is the mystery!
-
The GRO comes up with just one birth record for Henry Groves 1854 + 2 years either side.
GROVES, HENRY BIGG
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 359
If I change Henry to Harry no birth record appears. If I go earlier or later no record of any Henry Groves born Leeds.
This would imply that there is only one in the relevant time period and Henry was inconsistent with his age in the census records. Is his place of birth always Leeds or Yorkshire in the census records?
It may be that Henry left his wife Mary and lived with Nellie/Nelly until they married in 1892. Have you searched for Mary only on census records?
-
I see that there are two births for a Mary Elizabeth Avison between 1853 and 1860.
Births Sep 1857
Avison Mary Elizabeth Sheffield 9c 275
I've only included the above as the other one died the year she was born 1856.
-
Thankyou, GirlGuide, for your time and research. The marriage record for Henry's marriage to Mary Elizabeth Avison in 1876 tallies with your birth record for her. But there is no death record for Mary nor a divorce record nor a census entry for her following 1876. On the other hand, Henry's marriage record with Nellie in 1892 lists him as "bachelor" and his father as Charles Groves (which tallies) but as "traveller" instead of "comedian". Henry's occupation is "cabdriver" (which tallies) and Nellie's first and surname are Robinson (which tallies with their childrens birth records from 1882) but their address is given as Salford, and not Hulme, which is where they are actually living. Also, Henry signs his name in his marriage to Mary E, but with Nellie he leaves his "x' mark. Hence my suspicion that these are two different Henrys. Unless the situation is out and out bigamy, and he's cunning...
-
More likely that we are looking at a case of bigamy. If Mary can be found somewhere it may clarify things.
There is a death for a Mary E Groves in Leeds, right age etc.
GROVES, MARY ELIZABETH 78
GRO Reference: 1935 J Quarter in LEEDS NORTH Volume 09B Page 436
Getting the death certificate may clarify this is the right one or it may not!
-
From what I can see, there are two Mary Elizabeth Groves who are buried in Harehills Cemetery in Leeds. One in 1935 and one in 1936.
1935 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/226745279/mary-elizabeth-groves?_gl=1*1dltk4*_ga*MTI2MTA5ODQyMS4xNjM0MDkwNjIx*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY1NzAwNTQ1NC43NS4xLjE2NTcwMTA2NDguMA..
1936 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/212445120/mary-elizabeth-groves?_gl=1*14jtkvm*_ga*MTI2MTA5ODQyMS4xNjM0MDkwNjIx*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY1NzAwNTQ1NC43NS4xLjE2NTcwMTA2OTIuMA..
Both are in April. One mentions Avison, but the other, without a mention of Avison, shows a husband named Alfred Groves. Is this possible that this is the same Mary Elizabeth Groves, but the year is a typo? We can see from the photo of the headstone that Mary Elizabeth Groves died April 1936 (wife of Alfred Groves), but the burial entry for the year prior mentions AVISON but that its not on the headstone. Confusing!
-
Was bigamy a common phenomenon during the late Victorian era?
-
1901 census Leeds, Alfred Groves with wife Mary E, children, Eveline, Gertrude, George, Frederick, all have mother's maiden name as GOSPELL.
freebmd has marriage registration at Pocklington sept 1884 of Alfred Groves and Mary Elizabeth Godspell
-
1901 census Leeds, Alfred Groves with wife Mary E, children, Eveline, Gertrude, George, Frederick, all have mother's maiden name as GOSPELL.
freebmd has marriage registration at Pocklington sept 1884 of Alfred Groves and Mary Elizabeth Godspell
I looked at the 1911 census and found the same info. as you fiddlersglass
Mary Elizabeth Groves b1857 Allerthorpe Yorks is with her married husband Alfred (cartman) and 4 of their children on 1911c
Evelyn Muriel Gospell Groves (1891)
Gertrude Mary Groves (1893)
George Alfred Groves (1897)
John Frederick Groves (1900) - Frederick John 1899 - GRO
Checking GRO indexes they all have the same mmn GOSPELL
GOSPEL, MARY ELIZABETH mmn HOWE
1857 M Quarter in Pocklington Volume 09D Page 64
Sep 1884
Gospell Mary Elizabeth Pocklington 9d 109
GROVES Alfred Pocklington 9d 109
Index only
Marriage 12 Jul 1884 Allerthorpe By Pocklington,York
Mary Elizabeth Gospell father George Gospell
Spouse: Alfred Groves father George Groves
Edit to add baptism of one of their children
Evelyn Muriel Gospel Groves
Baptism 30 Nov 1890 Leeds, Christ Church, Yorkshire
Father: Alfred Groves, miller Mother: Mary Elizabeth
Evelyn married William Ambler on 5th August 1916 age 25 , father Alfred, Clerk
Witnesses were Alfred Groves & Gertrude Mary Groves
-
From marriage in 1876, Mary E Avison is daughter of Samuel, a blacksmith, age 19.
1871 census, Ordsall Notts
Samuel Avison 39 Engine Blacksmith Saggerthorpe? yks
ann wife 35
Mary Eliz 13 Sheffield Yks
Thomas 10 Manchester
Douglas 4 Leeds
Samuel junior 2 Barton on Humber Linc's
Family is in Sheffield 1881, Mary E is not with them.
perhaps try a search just for Mary born Sheffield in 1881 census to see if she turns up as a "wife" to someone else!
-
1901 census Leeds, Alfred Groves with wife Mary E, children, Eveline, Gertrude, George, Frederick, all have mother's maiden name as GOSPELL.
freebmd has marriage registration at Pocklington sept 1884 of Alfred Groves and Mary Elizabeth Godspell
for info. 1891 census Piece: 3683 Folio: 120
Alf Groves 30 Head
M E Groves 34 Wife Alverthorpe
E M G Groves 8 Daughter
Anna Gospell 20 Sister-in-law
-
Mary Elizabeth Avison is living in with her family in 1871
Thrumpton, Ordsall, East Retford, Nottinghamshire, England
Samuel Avison, 39, engine blacksmith
Ann Avison, 35
Mary Elizabeth , 13
Thomas, 10
Douglas 4
Samuel John 2
Samuel John Avison, reg 1868, Glanford Brigg, Lincs, MMN DOUGLAS
In 1881 Samuel and Ann are with listed children Douglas, William (9) and Isabella (4), no sign of Mary Elizabeth. Isabella birth is registered in 1876 with MMN Douglas, but Ann would’ve been 44, not unheard of, but I wonder if she was born to ME?
Another interesting note…
2 Feb 1878, Leeds Times
BAXTER-GROVES- 29th January, at the Registry Office Leeds, Joe Baxter, warp-dresser, to Mary Elizabeth Groves, both of Leeds. Modified- Children are registered with MMN Groves, so not your ME.
Or…
26 Aug 1874 York Herald
A PRECIOUS QUARTET - William Buckland and Henry Bevan, deserters from the 12th Lancers, and Clara Mitchell and Mary Elizabeth Avison, prostitutes, were charged before the Scarbro’ magistrates, yesterday, with being in Scarbro’ for the purpose of committing a felony. The two male prisoners were remanded until an escort arrived to take them to Manchester. The females were discharged on promising to leave town.
-
There is a Mary Elizabeth Groves birth registered
GROVES, MARY ELIZABETH JOHNSON
GRO Reference: 1857 D Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 354
So that Baxter/Groves marriage could be this lady.
Looking at the 1871 census I don't think this Mary is anything to do with the Mary who married Henry.
Living at Beckett Street, East, Leeds, Yorkshire with parents John & Harriet. Marriage of John & Harriet looks to be JQ 1843 Leeds.
-
Thanks for all your time, interest and research. i am still non the wiser when it comes to Harry's first wife ME but I'm putting it down to bigamy (for now). i will take a look at death certificates for ME and see what i can find.