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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Michael Craig on Thursday 16 June 22 20:39 BST (UK)
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Hi People
Doing some research into Karen A Cook born Jan 1957 and Died April 1957 her sister also Mcdonald as she took her grandfather surname but the fathers name was not on the birth certificate of the sister i am ordering a copy of Karen A Cook Born Certificate to see if there is any info on it would is there a way to see if this child was baptised before her death
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Which particular bit do you need help with Michael? Who done a DNA test?
If the cousin is still alive his name will have to be removed as not allowed to discuss living persons.
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The births were a year apart & mmn is the same
No death for the 1958 birth so as advised you need to remove her name & the cousins name as Rootschat has a strict no living persons policy to protect peoples privacy
Access your post & click on the "Modify" button to edit
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Hi People
Doing some research into Karen A Cook born Jan 1957 and Died April 1957 the sister was born but the fathers name was not on the birth certificate of the sister i am ordering a copy of Karen A Cook Born Certificate to see if there is any info on it
My friend had done a DNA test come back as 1st or 2nd cousin is as help would be great
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Hi
I'm not familiar with the many permutations of a DNA match but as Karen died in 1957 shortly after birth - her DNA would not be on a database for comparison purposes. The 1958 birth is more likely but if that birth cert also has no fathers name you would need to approach the sister directly.
You will have the mothers full christian name from Karens birth cert so have you looked for a marriage for her in case she later married one or other of the childrens fathers and the name is the one you mentioned originally?
Have you looked for the male on www.freebmd.org.uk
The mother/father could still be alive if born around the mid-1930's so we would be unable to help with any personal details
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Hi all
The sister asked her daughter who has asked me for help and because I, got lots with my own tree here I was asked to put it up without breaking any roots chat rules
I am sending of for the birth as for the sister she is interested as her birth cert did not list a father but by then the mother was with new partner which is listed in ancestry as the father but he is not
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I can't really make sense of your reply but we are not allowed to post details of living people- whether or not they are a DNA match to someone you are researching is really irrelevant.
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I can see a brief tree with Karen’s birth and death in 1957.
Just to say, Michael, that the tree owner has named a father but that is not Ancestry which has listed him. It is the tree owner who has posted that information.
As has been said, the birth shows Cook as mother’s name. I haven’t seen the sister’s birth but if that shows the same name, then it is likely that there will be no father’s name on the certificates as the girls would be illegitimate.
You would then need to determine if the cousin is from the mother’s side (Cook) or the father’s side (perhaps unknown at the moment).
That is how I am reading your post anyway :)
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The Ancesty tree listed the Father as William S McDonald as they married whilst the mother was pregnet but he is not the father
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Please don't post details of living, or possibly living, people even if they appear on someone's family tree.
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Please don't post details of living, or possibly living, people even if they appear on someone's family tree.
I spoke with the person and anyone mentioned is deceased and I have modified to remove the name which is why you didn't understand my reply as it was done when I was tired so sorry everyone
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The Ancesty tree listed the Father as William S McDonald as they married whilst the mother was pregnet but he is not the father
As I wrote earlier, the person who has published the tree has posted that. Perhaps they believe it to be true.
You could try contacting the owner.
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It is her that posted the tree that I am in touch with so is a family member of my partner it is her that has told me all this and done the tree
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I can’t see the problem then.
She is the one who has named that person as the father.
Is she (and you) hoping to find the biological father? If he is not named on the birth certificates and there is no family record of him, then DNA might help her through sorting the matches.
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Because the man named as the father on the tree married the mother but the tree owner said her grandmother met him whilst carrying the second child with the first deceased we are hoping a father is listed on the birth certifate or death cert
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I think it's true in England, as in Ireland, that the father of an illegitimate child for that period couldn't be listed on the birth certificate unless he attended the registration.
I don't think the death certificate would name the father unless he happened to be the informant for the death.
It's possible that children had different fathers that may or may not be the later husband of their mother.
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Let's hope we have something on the birth certificate we do have a name but it's not 100%
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wondering if maybe a baptism record is available all she knows in the childs name and dob being jan 1957 and death in june anything i can look for notices in newspaper ect
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wondering if maybe a baptism record is available all she knows in the childs name and dob being jan 1957 and death in june anything i can look for notices in newspaper ect
Some people placed birth and death announcements in local newspapers. Unlikely to have been a birth announcement if parents of a child weren't married.
For baptisms, you would need to know religious denomination + the area where the child was living or staying when she was baptised so that you can identify what churches were in the area at the time.
If the baby died in hospital, it's possible that a baptism was performed by a hospital chaplain.
Some baptism registers from that decade have been deposited in archives, (Lancashire Archives or Manchester Libraries & Archives) some haven't. E.g. a register of my family's church with 1950's baptisms is in Lancashire Archives but the baptism register immediately preceding it hasn't been deposited there.
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Spoke with family member her mum was born Catholic in Levenshulme so thinking Karen Cook was born there too any help would be great finding a death notice or baptism or church even street ...a 1st cousin on dna match was a hyman got one in stockport with mother maiden name massey nothing else yet any help would be great
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Just been told the Adienne Cok lived at Harrison Street I assume that is in Levenshulme and St Peter Church is near by... is there anyone who could look for a baptism at this church for Karen Ann Cook in Jan to June 1957 hopefully a fathers name maybe listed
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Michael,
The last message isn’t very clear because of the typos.
St Peter’s isn’t a Catholic Church in Levenshulme.
You would need to contact the church to check baptism registers at that time or ascertain where they are kept, I would think.
One church I know of which is Levenshulme is St Mary’s Elbow Street.
I also think that the father would need to be present for the baptism to be named in the baptism register.
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We don't know if he was or not there it's one line of enquiry the other applying for birth cert and death cert ...all we know the father of Karen and the Sister was not on tge scene when tge sister was born
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Is he on the birth certificate?
Is there an address to check on the certificate? You could try electoral registers to see who was living with the mother.
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Do you have the death certificate to see who the informant was?
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Just been told the Adienne Cok
Born 1939 - died 2018
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Summing up
2 illegitimate births to the same mother one year apart - 1957 & 1958
The child born 1957 died shortly after birth - the other is still alive. Death cert sent for to see who the informant was.
No father named on either birth cert so no evidence that the same man fathered both children.
The mother was born 1939 and married 1958. There is no evidence at this stage that her husband was the father of either of the 2 children
Michael - were any children born to that 1958 marriage? I can see 3 possibilities 1959-1962.
If the DNA of the illegitimate child b 1958 is not a paternal match to her half siblings - then somebody else was her father.
The chances of determining paternity for the child born & died 1957 are remote if not impossible as there is no DNA from that child
I cannot see any further help we can give you as it's all down to DNA matches.
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Spoke with family member her mum was born Catholic in Levenshulme so thinking Karen Cook was born there too
Not necessarily. Some unmarried women gave birth away from their home area. Have you seen Karen's birth certificate?
Just been told the Adienne Cok lived at Harrison Street I assume that is in Levenshulme and St Peter Church is near by... is there anyone who could look for a baptism at this church for Karen Ann Cook in Jan to June 1957 hopefully a fathers name maybe listed
List of churches in Levenshulme + locations of registers, where known.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Levenshulme
As heywood said, St. Peter's isn't R.C. The Catholic church in Levenshulme is St. Mary. Click on name of church to see which registers have been archived. Baptism registers 1947-1962 are at Lancashire Archives.
Selecting tab "nearby churches" brings up a map with location markers for churches in a 3 mile radius. (Distance can be adjusted.) Markers are colour-coded according to denomination, R.C. is yellow. Click on a marker to see name of a church and perhaps foundation year. Map can be enlarged.
Added.
St. Mary and the Angels and St. Clare R.C. Church , Levenshulme
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Levenshulme/index.html
The church has been at 3 locations, present one since 1975.
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Hi All
I tracked down the grave of Karen Cook to Southern Cemetery she is in a Public Grave with others the Address Listed is 86 Shelly Grove Rushulme how do i find who lived there in 1956 57 and 58 hoping a male father is listed there
Adrienne Cook then lived at 23 Harrison Avenue Levenshulme i was told when they were built she was one of the first to move there and passed away there her mother Mary Davis moved in with her hoping 86 Shelly Grove was not the mother old address coming up with blanks
cant find any baptisms or newpaper artical any help or points
Mike
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Perhaps something here
https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/212379/electoral_registers/category/1367/view_all_collections
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Adrienne was only born in 1939 so would not appear on ER's 1957/58
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I think it is just an address check, isn’t it?
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Fair enough - however
how do i find who lived there in 1956 57 and 58 hoping a male father is listed there
But you don't have Karen's biological fathers name or that of her sisters?? They could have different fathers.
Have you read my earlier reply 26?
Michael - were any children born to that 1958 marriage? I can see 3 possibilities 1959-1962.
If the DNA of the illegitimate child b 1958 is not a paternal match to her half siblings - then somebody else was her father.
The chances of determining paternity for the child born & died 1957 are remote if not impossible as there is no DNA from that child
I cannot see any further help we can give you as it's all down to DNA matches.
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Adrienne was only born in 1939 so would not appear on ER's 1957/58
She wouldn't be able to vote until 1960 when she was 21.
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Perhaps something here
https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/212379/electoral_registers/category/1367/view_all_collections
Are they online on any pay site?
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cant find any baptisms or newpaper artical any help or points
A newspaper notice for a birth, baptism or death was a long-shot in this situation, to be honest.
If Karen was baptised by a Catholic priest, the only record is likely the baptism register.
Was Karen's sister baptised?
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Perhaps something here
https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/212379/electoral_registers/category/1367/view_all_collections
Are they online on any pay site?
I don’t think so. It was the only thing I could think of for an address check - not looking for the mother who, as you say, would not be included.
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Michael
Please read replies 26 & 32
The only way this is going to be resolved is by DNA using the half siblings - see my earlier reply.
Being realistic - Finding who lived at an address 65yrs ago is pointless as it is not going to prove paternity. There is also the possibly that the 2 girls had different fathers as mentioned in an earlier reply.
Finding the name of a father on a possible baptism when he is not named on the birth cert is also extremely unlikely.
Surely the daughter b 1958 knows whether William McDonald was her biological father or not given her mother married him in 1958? Why has she named him as her father on her tree if she has doubts?
You would be wasting your time looking for baptisms & electoral registers & addresses as that information does not prove paternity.
If the possible father was a similar age to Adrienne - he would not appear on an ER so how would you proceed then??
The unknown biological father could now be deceased but may have married in which case if there is a DNA match it will be with his descendants
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Hi All yes Karen does have a sister been told both have the same father which is why the second sister living took on her grandfathers surname as for what ever reason the father on the deceased sister was off the scene
the mother Adrienne Cook then married William stephen Mcdonald both passed away name and yes they married and had 3 further children
as for the 86 Shelly Grove rushulme I got that for the Cemetery records as a listed address of Karen Cook
Of course this address could have been the mothers mother former address or her mothers address i was hoping that there would be a clue maybe a male occupant or parents of that male occupant it was a line of enquiry
I have sent of now for the birth and death certificate in the hope there maybe something as the father was around for the sister at least until pregnet for how long dont know
but mcdonald took on the sister as his own
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A name came up for the grandmother before her death as a possible father Goodwin or Goodman was hoping that that name came up at 86 Shelly Grove rushulme who know there is a DNA MATCH
As 1st - snd Counsin to a Peter Hyman 682 cM ACROSS 24 SEGMENTS tried looking for this person in the manchester area no luck althou there is one on ancestry she found but her free account is usless now
as pointers
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I will be surprised if either Karens birth or death cert give any fathers details. Same with the sisters birth cert - as she probably already knows.
As I said before - the only way the sister will get any answers is via DNA
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Hi all
the sisters daughter is the one who took the DNA test and peter hyman came up as a 1st to 2nd cousin to Adrienne Cooks grand daughter I got another address on the death certificate as 8 Brighton Grove Manchester so going to the library in the morning to check cabinet 30 and 31 where the electrol register on mirco film is hoping that any of the 3 names are living there still waiting on the birth certificate to come through to see if i can get a link
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Good luck, Michael.
Have you been in touch with the DNA contact?
Are you able to see names/places in their ancestry?
If the contact is living, they shouldn’t be named on this site.
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Hi Heywood
we tried the dna contact no response i also looked up the people on his tree only three and one private but the dates dont match the father he put in would be too young
I do have a Hannah Isaacson who married Israel Goodman his died 1958 then hannah married a Hyman I think its Vivian J Hyman all passed but cant find any children of Hannah or even a brother of Israel Goodman checked all three surname any help please
still done a goodman and hyman tree based on the dna tree got lots of ancestors but not got Frank Goodman or Peter Hyman yet
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The Isaacson/Goodman marriage was in 1952
The Israel Goodman who died in 1958 was born in 1883 & died in London ???
The Israel Goodman in Manchester was b 1930 & died 1991
Wife H was born 1933 & as there is no death or remarriage showing she has to be presumed to be still alive so her name should be removed from your reply above
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Hi
I got the death so she has passed in london i got it of a tree looking for children of Hannah but not finding any
mike
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I can't find the tree you mention but as I said above - there is only one matching marriage & that was 1952
There were 2 children born to that marriage - both in Manchester & both are on freebmd
Did you check the death info for yourself or just take what it said on the tree?? If you check the 1958 death you will find he was born 1883
When is H* supposed to have died?
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I think it 2004 I will check on the tree later can you private message the names pleade
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Michael
We are going round in circles here. Your thread is now running at 6 pages. The childrens names are on freebmd as stated
We already know that the mother of the 2 illegitimate girls married McDonald so why have you posted that again?
You were advised to tell the living daughter to take a DNA test & have now come back with what appears to be Jewish ancestry - none of which makes any sense.
Did you read my replies re marriage & death dates for Israel Goodman? You give a 1958 death in London of a man born in 1883 - where does he connect to illegitimate children born in Manchester in the 1950's??
Your replies are hard to understand as they contain very little detail and therefore attract questions. Can I suggest you read this thread again from start to finish & determine exactly what connection you are trying to establish & with who.
Please ensure all birthyears, marriage & death years are included - not just names
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If you research the names you mention - there is a 1963 marriage between Mannan (Hannah) Goodman & Vivian J Hyman
Hannah Hyman born 31.1.1933 died 2004 Manchester - not London
Vivian Jack Hyman b 28.12.1923 died 2007 Manchester
Vivian ywas previously married & you will find the marriage on freebmd in 1951. Son born 1957 but not the name you give in your earlier reply. His wife remarried 1961 in London and no death is found for her up to 2020 so her name cannot be given.
No children born to the 1963 marriage
If Hannah married Israel in 1952 - he only died 1991 - again Manchester not London - so they must have divorced. Israel appears to have remarried in 1960 in Manchester so the 1958 death is the wrong person as previously advised.
Trees on Ancestry are notoriously unreliable so you need to check things out yourself
I still cannot fathom where these people fit with the illegitimate Cook children apart from they all lived in Manchester.
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I have a shelley grove rusholme listed on death certificate but can not find it only one in Droylsden was this grove part if rusholme in 1957 seems to far away
I also have what looks to be sha resheane of resheawe Street manchedter 13 ardwich I believe on birth certificate but maybe knocked down any help nothing on Google
Mike
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This post started as a request to find the biological father of 2 illegitimate children surname Cook born in the late 1950's - one of whom died shortly after birth & the other is still living.
It suddenly expanded with the introduction of the surname Hyman - seemingly unconnected & with no explanation from you.
Your current reply is confusing. Can I suggest you visit the Manchester Records Office and search the electoral registers for the addresses you give above. If you are looking for the residents of that address in 1957 then that is the best way for you to get the information
You are already aware that information about possible living persons is not allowed & you have been given a lot of advice on the way forward via DNA
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I have a shelley grove rusholme listed on death certificate but can not find it only one in Droylsden was this grove part if rusholme in 1957 seems to far away
I also have what looks to be sha resheane of resheawe Street manchedter 13 ardwich I believe on birth certificate but maybe knocked down any help nothing on Google
Mike
Do you mean Manchester 13 district? If so then this might be right.
Renshaw Street became Epping Street. The postcode though is M15 now.
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Hi
I got the shelley grove from the cemetery office
The death certificate listed Brighton Grove got some names of great grand mother living there from library as Adrienne was not listed as she was only 18 and women under 21 not listed
Birth certificate only came on 27 July the day I left to drive to Bulgaria for holiday
So will check when I get home from my holiday but address is different so confused
Looks like Sha Resheane Grove not sure if it sharesheane or sheresheawe but it M13 which looks to be advice
But thank you everyone so far for the help but looking like a brick wall I will hand what info I have to the family
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Hi Heywood but there looks to be the word Sha then space with cap Resheane or Resheanwe but I think it's a n
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Is it in the residence column?
That doesn’t make sense though, does it?
Can you post a snippet from the certificate showing that part.
We can’t post the whole certificate.
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Michael
We have been down the address route in earlier replies. Finding who lived at an address 65yrs ago does not prove paternity.
You cannot possibly have a name for Karen's biological father as there is no DNA given she died shortly after birth.
The surviving child may have had the same father or he may be totally different. From your replies - it does not appear that the surviving illegitimate child has taken a DNA test but her daughter has.
There is an inference in your replies that the surviving daughter is aware that she was not William McDonalds biological daughter so is there a reason that she has not taken a DNA test herself?
See your reply number 8. The 2nd daughters birth was registered in the June qtr of 1958 but the mother did not marry until September qtr 1958. She was not pregnant with that child when she married.
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Hi Carol
I Clearly understand what roots i have been done i am working on hear say and bits of information FROM family members and a DNA kit with Ancestry and that i cant post living names and yes i will be at the library to check the address to see if any of the names i have researched or been given appear yes i understand this is 7 pages long and i have read the posts and i am still looking forgot it clearly do not prove a person is a childs father otherwise BUT I AM NEW to this research and help is good
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Is it in the residence column?
That doesn’t make sense though, does it?
Can you post a snippet from the certificate showing that part.
We can’t post the whole certificate.
Hi Heywood first i want to thank you for all the help and info you have been great i am really new to this and only just starting to find out how to use freebdm i have fell for the ancestry error on my partner side thought i was doing great before realising ghat the great grand father was listed at a wedding and did not die in 1934 again you help me with that and i found it all
how do i post a snippet or image i have taken a photo on just the address and its of the birth certificate from Karen Cook
looks like 13 Sha Resh
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Is it in the residence column?
That doesn’t make sense though, does it?
Can you post a snippet from the certificate showing that part.
We can’t post the whole certificate.
Hi Heywood first i want to thank you for all the help and info you have been great i am really new to this and only just starting to find out how to use freebdm i have fell for the ancestry error on my partner side thought i was doing great before realising ghat the great grand father was listed at a wedding and did not die in 1934 again you help me with that and i found it all
how do i post a snippet or image i have taken a photo on just the address and its of the birth certificate from Karen Cook
looks like 13 Sha Resheane street manchester 13
(http://)
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(https://scontent.fltn2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/295783493_783178389707379_8217515925232280854_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=GMJ7WQ4y5xoAX_DYOxj&_nc_ht=scontent.fltn2-1.fna&oh=03_AVK7u3YiHox2EYJELpg3PhYWDglHytRrdTK_yUy7rmi3Eg&oe=630FD53D)
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I haven't read through this entire thread are but are you sure the mother is deceased? if not you should not post her name (this includes the snippet above)
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It looks like Shakespeare Street
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Just to confirm I am a friend of the family doing research on their behalf it is a muddle
Adrienne Cook is deceased daughter and grand damage are alive I have not posted their names on this thread
Grand daughter took dna test daughter has not as of yet
We got a match and as Heywood tge match could actually be on the mothers side
I am new to this I am aware that lots of people have said living people names must not be put up on board which I have made sure of
Mike
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Thank you
Shakespeare Street now that you pointed it out
Mike
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Well done Christie. It’s so clear now :)
Old thread here https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=274212.9 re the street. Reply #11 is interesting re number 15 and the houses were mainly lodging houses.
There is also a link to a Facebook page with photos.