RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Carolyn1810 on Thursday 16 June 22 16:40 BST (UK)
-
I am trying to find out what became of my relative Ellen O'Brien - in 1915 she was living at 74 St John's Rd, Bootle, Liverpool with her husband James who was sadly killed in WW1. I have no trace of her after this date so any help will be great. She was born 06/12/1893 in Waterford, Ireland.
-
Was James killed in 1915?
Have you looked for any marriages and checked 1921 census?
Could she have returned to Waterford?
-
Yes, he was killed in 1915 but i cant find Ellen on the 1921 census in England and don't think there was an Irish census then.
-
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/281115/james-o-brien/
When & where did they marry? What was Ellen's maiden name? Did they have any children
-
they married in Waterford, Ireland 10-04-1915 and James was killed the following June and at that time they were living in Liverpool. There weren't any children as far as i can find
-
His widow applied for his medals in 1923 as Mrs Ellen Purcell
Marriages December qtr 1916
O'Brien Ellen West Derby 8b 953
Purcell Ernest
Check the 1921 under Purcell
See above
What was Ellen's maiden name?
Was it Furlong?
-
Previous thread on Waterford board-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=863129.new#new
-
Thanks Aghadowey
-
Your previous post gives Ellen's maiden name as Long but that is not supported by the maiden name on the births of the Purcell children which is Furlong
-
I am definitely looking for Ellen Long who married James o'Brien in 1915, both of Waterford Ireland.
-
See what I just posted on the Waterford thread.
-
Thank you - I will have another look for her later tonight. Had no luck on the 1939 register or 1921 census but name could well be different by then
-
From other post
I am definitely looking for Ellen Long who married James o'Brien in 1915, both of Waterford Ireland.
You need to take the advice given & look on the 1921 for Ellen Purcell to find her birthyear & birthplace
-
Just noticed this thread is on the board for Look up offers :-\
-
thank you all for your help but i will close now as a bit overwhelmed with the quickness and not having time to look as quickly! Can't afford the census just yet but i will definitely look when it becomes free to access.
thanks again
-
When you are able - look on the 1939 register for Ellen & Ernest Purcell. Some of their childrens entries are open so they have died. 2 of the births show mothers maiden name O'Brien but all others show Furlong
Did you know that many libraries offer free Ancestry access?
-
She wasn't my Ellen as she had a different date of birth
thanks for your help though
-
There are a couple of Purcell/Long births
Thomas Purcell 1920 mmn Long - death 1921
He looks to be on 1921 census
There is another one in 1937 who may still be living.
Ellen’s birth is out by a few years in those records compared with her birth record but the marriage certificate would give her father’s details.
-
His widow applied for his medals in 1923 as Mrs Ellen Purcell
Marriages December qtr 1916
O'Brien Ellen West Derby 8b 953
Purcell Ernest
Check the 1921 under Purcell
See above
What was Ellen's maiden name?
Was it Furlong?
Is there an address for the claim? Wondering if it could be checked against 1921 :-\
-
I am trying to find out what became of my relative Ellen O'Brien - in 1915 she was living at 74 St John's Rd, Bootle, Liverpool with her husband James who was sadly killed in WW1. I have no trace of her after this date so any help will be great. She was born 06/12/1893 in Waterford, Ireland.
This may be a coincidence but Ernest Purcell’s family lived at 153, St John’s Road for at least 1891 - 1911.
-
That is a coincidence isn't it, could have been family acquaintances
-
The cwgc entry shows 74 St Johns Rd - same as MRI
Different address in 1939 but still in Bootle
-
She wasn't my Ellen as she had a different date of birth
thanks for your help though
How much difference? One of my relatives, similar age to Ellen, was a year out on 1939 Register.
-
it was very different and a few years out
-
Yes - birthdate was totally different on the 1939 register. Where did you get your Ellen's full birthdate from?
A couple of things bother me.
There is no marriage in England between a James O'Brien & Ellen Furlong to definitely rule them out as the wrong couple.
The cwgc entry shows James parents were in Waterford which is where you say your Ellen & James married in 1915.
They were only married 2 months when he was killed & there are no O'Brien births with mmn Furlong which supports a short marriage.
If he was serving in an Irish regiment when they married - why did they move to Bootle?
The 1921 entry will have her birthplace & age. If it shows Waterford you cannot dismiss the 1916 marriage without buying a copy of the cert to establish her fathers name. Unfortunately it was a civil marriage so can't be looked up in parish records
-
On the subject of Ellens birthdate on the 1939 register
Son Ernest was b 1918 - not 1919 - per freebmd & his 2001 death reg
Son Arthur was b 1926 - not 1920 per freebmd & 1999 death reg
If Ellen's birth year was correct in 1939 she would have been barely 18yrs old when she remarried Purcell in 1916 so would only have been 17yrs old when she married in 1915. You say her birthyear was 1893
-
If he was serving in an Irish regiment when they married - why did they move to Bootle?
Ellen may have moved to be near family or friends or to work.
Where was James on 1911 census? Was he in Ireland or England?
-
Ellen born 6 Dec.1893 Waterford-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02269/1852762.pdf
During WWI Ireland was part of the U.K. so not uncommon to have Irish regiments in England. The Bootle address from CWGC might have been Ellen's address at the time husband James O'Brien died or even a bit after he died.
-
The 1921 entry would be a good clue. The address on the 1915 death is the same as the 1923 application for his medals. Assumption being she was there in 1921
See Ellen’s mothers maiden name was O’Brien
-
Reply #27 aghadowey. That's my thinking as well. James may not have actually lived at the Bootle address.
A relative of mine, born & lived in England, mother from County Carlow, father also Irish, joined Irish Guards in England in 1915. Went to France & Flanders. Invalided back to a hospital in Scotland.
-
A thought about Ellen's age. As she was born in December 1893 she would have been eligible to vote when she was 30, from December 1923, if her husband was a householder. She might have been on electoral registers from 1923 or 1924.
-
1n 1921, Ernest and Ellen are living at 74, St John’s Road, Bootle
It all looks very positive.
-
Whoopy Doo - same address as on the cwgc entry & the 1923 medal application so definitely the right widow of the James O’Brien who was KIA in 1915
BUT - is this Carolyn’s Ellen or does she have the wrong James O’Brien death in 1915??
The Ellen O’Brien who married Ernest Purcell in 1916 is unquestionably the widow of the 1915 James
However - her birthdate on the 1939 register does not fit nor does mmn on births of the Purcell children which is Furlong - not Long
Carolyn - what documentary evidence do you have that led you to the 1915 WW1 death of James O’Brien?
-
Wrong info - removed
-
There are two Long births though, although as most births were Furlong, they might have been errors.
On their marriage, James was a soldier and Carolyn wrote that they knew Ellen went to Bootle but not what happened to her.
Are there any military records for James, other than his death and the medal information?
I can’t see any Ellen Furlong births in Waterford.
I think the Purcell/O’Brien marriage is needed.
-
From a different viewpoint:
CWGC - ‘Son of James and Mary O'Brien of Waterford; husband of Ellen O'Brien, of 74, St. John's Rd., Bootle, Liverpool.’
Marriage of James and Ellen - James’ father - James, deceased, Blacksmith
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09814/5563806.pdf
Possible birth - James Brien - parents James, a Smith and Mary Sullivan
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02406/1897450.pdf
Census 1901? I haven’t found daughter Bridget’s birth though to check.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Waterford_Urban_No__2/Trinity_Lane/1761752/
-
Thanks to all of your help I have been able to access the 1921 census and located Ellen , formerly Long, married to Ernest Purcell living at 74 St Joh's St in Liverpool - the same address as on her former husband's death notice in 1915, She had 3 sons at this time.
I am almost certain this is the same Ellen that I am looking for as she was also born in Waterford, Ireland but as her birth date is a few years later than my relative I am going to confirm by her marriage certificate giving her father's name.
As I haven't used these forums before thankyou to each of you that helped and excuse the errors I made!
-
That’s the best way to find out Carolyn.
If you are confident that she went to Bootle then that Ellen seems very likely.
Please let us know when you have the certificate information.
-
yes, I will do that
-
Marriage of James and Ellen - James’ father - James, deceased, Blacksmith
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09814/5563806.pdf
Census 1901? I haven’t found daughter Bridget’s birth though to check.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Waterford_Urban_No__2/Trinity_Lane/1761752/
I couldn't read James' address on marriage registration.
Tried to find James O'Brien or his father in Waterford on 1911 census last night. Found a James O'Brien, blacksmith, aged about 20. He was head of household in a lodging-house with his siblings + boarders, approx. 20 people in total. A couple of younger brothers of that James were also blacksmiths. There was an older James in the same townland/area. There were a lot of men named James O'Brien around.
Carolyn may already have that information.
-
There are several James as you say so it is difficult.
The one who married Ellen Long had a father, James, a deceased Blacksmith.
The address is Miller’s Marsh.
-
There are several James as you say so it is difficult.
The one who married Ellen Long had a father, James, a deceased Blacksmith.
Did you notice the other 12 year-old boy named James O'Brien in the same house in Trinity Lane on 1901 census? His father was also James, a dock labourer.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Waterford_Urban_No__2/Trinity_Lane/
Death 1907 Waterford, James Brien age 61, blacksmith. He died in the workhouse hospital.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05537/4552378.pdf
Census 1901? I haven’t found daughter Bridget’s birth though to check.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Waterford_Urban_No__2/Trinity_Lane/1761752/
Tried to find James O'Brien or his father in Waterford on 1911 census last night. Found a James O'Brien, blacksmith, aged about 20. He was head of household in a lodging-house with his siblings + boarders, approx. 20 people in total. A couple of younger brothers of that James were also blacksmiths.
1911 census House 17 Manor Street, Waterford No. 3 Urban, Waterford
James O'Brien, 20, blacksmith + brothers Edward & Patrick, blacksmiths + sister Bridget (14) + brother Thomas (6) + 2 O'Brien relatives + assorted boarders, one of whom was a blacksmith.
Bridget too young to be the same Bridget as in Trinity Lane in 1901.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Waterford_No__3_Urban/Manor_Street/672589/
-
Hopefully, the Purcell marriage certificate will decide if Ellen is the right one. :)
-
A man who spent years researching biographical information about Irish casualties in WW1 has recently set up a database about them.
Added.
"The Irish Great War Dead Archive"
https://irelandsgreatwardead.ie
Article "Irish War Dead Archive"
https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/irish-great-war-dead-archive
-
A man who spent years researching biographical information about Irish casualties in WW1 has recently set up a database about them.
Added.
"The Irish Great War Dead Archive"
https://irelandsgreatwardead.ie
Information under James O'Brien, son of James O'Brien of Waterford & husband of Ellen is that he was born in Trinity Without, Waterford and that he enlisted in Waterford.
Another James O'Brien in the same battalion died April 1915.
The archive is the result of 15 years research and is also a multi-volume work.
-
https://www.townlands.ie/waterford/middlethird/trinity-without/trinity-without/
Looks possible for James of James and Mary Sullivan, I think. :-\
But there may be others.
-
Using some of the information already on this thread I did a bit more digging. I might have sorted out the O'Briens a bit more but it might get even more confusing from her on :-\
The James O'Brien died 1915 was, according to attestation papers, born Trinity Without, Waterford which fits this birth-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02406/1897450.pdf (born 15 Oct.1890 at Thomas Ave., parents James Brien (smith) & Mary Brien)
“parish of Trinity Without in Waterford City. … Thomas’ Avenue, also known as Wheelbarrow Lane, off Barker Street. This lane was closed by Waterford City Council in the 1960s.” https://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/John-Condon-Boy-Soldier-Biography.pdf
James O'Brien/Brien, blacksmith was married to Mary Brien. They appear in 1901 census with children James & Bridget. James died 1907 in Waterford Workhouse.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Waterford_Urban_No__2/Trinity_Lane/1761752/ (James O’Brien)
Now for some new details. I looked in 1911 for Mary O'Brien, widow, aged about 55, in Waterford and found this one in household of a son-in-law. Her daughter was Bridget and son-in-law William Long! Mary's age is off from 1901 which isn't uncommon.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1910/09985/5631572.pdf (his father Thomas Long! and her father James O'Brien with a James O'Brien as witness)
-
Summing up
The Ellen O'Brien who married Ernest Purcell in 1915 is definitely the widow of the James O'Brien who was killed in 1915 in WW1
However - whether she is the Ellen Long who married a James O'Brien in 1915 Waterford remains to be seen and it will need the 1916 marriage cert to Purcell to compare her fathers name & occupation. Children born to the Purcell marriage have mmn Furlong
Ellen Long's birthdate is given as 6.12.1893 - whilst the year of birth is often incorrect on 1939 entries - the day & month tend to be correct. Not in this case.
There is no Ellen Furlong on the Irish or English 1901/1911 censuses matching her profile.
Reading reply above - if Ellen was b 1893 - where is she in 1901 as she is not with parents on the 1901 entry details given above
-
Oh that marriage sounds really good, aghadowey. That’s great. ;)
So, it looks as though it is the one I posted about - mother Mary Sullivan.
I thought that when I saw the Condon information and the map of the townland.
-
Carole,
Sorry to keep mentioning it but there are two Purcell/Long births. One may still be living.
-
Sorry Heywood - I had completely missed that ::). So on the Purcell births there are a mixture of mmn's. Long/Furlong/O'Brien
-
I have just found a likely death for the person born 1937 but will not name them just in case.
-
Using some of the information already on this thread I did a bit more digging. I might have sorted out the O'Briens a bit more but it might get even more confusing from her on :-\
Now for some new details. I looked in 1911 for Mary O'Brien, widow, aged about 55, in Waterford and found this one in household of a son-in-law. Her daughter was Bridget and son-in-law William Long! Mary's age is off from 1901 which isn't uncommon.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1910/09985/5631572.pdf (his father Thomas Long! and her father James O'Brien with a James O'Brien as witness)
The other marriage witness was Bridget Corcoran. Married name of Bridget Long, Ellen Long's elder sister was Corcoran. Her husband was Richard Corcoran. Bridget Corcoran & 2 of her children were with the Long family on 1901 census. Link to that household return on Carolyn's "Thomas Long" thread.
This is turning out be not so much a family tree but rather a hedge. If I understand correctly, James O'Brien and William Long were brothers-in-law twice over. Had James survived the war and had children with Ellen, they would have been double cousins to children of William & Bridget Long.