RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: TuTuTulip on Tuesday 14 June 22 06:04 BST (UK)
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I am having a lot of difficulty finding a birth certificate or church records for my 2nd great-grandfather, Lauritz Hermansen — I'm hoping there are some Danish research buffs out there that can help me! :)
This is the information I have for Lauritz so far:
Born 26 April 1855, Silkeborg, Denmark (I do not know which parish)
Father: Theodor Hermansen
Mother: Sophie Amalie Jensen
Married: 26 April 1882 in New Zealand (Maren Andersen Bak)
The information above was obtained from Lauritz and Maren's marriage certificate, but I am ideally wanting evidence of Lauritz's birth date (and place) from a primary source, such as a birth certificate. I can't seem to find his parents on any census documents, etc. either. ???
Lauritz was naturalised in New Zealand on 10 March 1883. The certificate states he was 28 years of age at the time of his naturalisation and had been living in New Zealand for 3 years. I am yet to find any definitive proof of his emigration to New Zealand — the closest I have got is finding a Lauritz Hermansen who travelled on the Herschel in 1878 from Hamburg to Queensland, Australia (although the stated age is 28, which doesn't quite match up with 'my' Lauritz).
I am very new to genealogy research so if anyone has any tips or directions they can point me, I would be most grateful!
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Hi
Hmm no luck in finding them yet.
This is his probate. You may have it already. It is free to see it but you have to become a member to do so. It is long:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GRH2-Z1X?i=191&cc=1865481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKDTM-5LZ
Is his date of birth exact?
Ian
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Here are a few Hermansen in Silkeborg. None seem to fit though
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/search/
Dave
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I can't find Lauritz or Sophie anywhere in the Danish Demographic Database (censuses). There is a Theodor Hermansen, parents Andreas & Antonette, in Randers amt in 1845 (age 11 b. Helsingor) and 1850 (age 16 b Copenhagen).
The Danish Emigrant database has only this Lauritz Hermansen:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rme/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rme/)
The Church Books for Silkeborg (in Skanderborg amt) start from 1856.
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This is his probate. You may have it already. It is free to see it but you have to become a member to do so. It is long:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GRH2-Z1X?i=191&cc=1865481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKDTM-5LZ
Is his date of birth exact?
Thanks for the link to Lauritz's probate — I had come across that one previously. :)
The date of birth I have for Lauritz is exact as in it was the date recorded on his marriage certificate, but I'm beginning to have doubts about that being his true birth date!
The Lauritz that travelled on the Herschel to Australia in 1878 was born in 1850, so if it's the same Lauritz, his year of birth could be earlier than the one stated on his marriage certificate.
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I can't find Lauritz or Sophie anywhere in the Danish Demographic Database (censuses). There is a Theodor Hermansen, parents Andreas & Antonette, in Randers amt in 1845 (age 11 b. Helsingor) and 1850 (age 16 b Copenhagen).
The Danish Emigrant database has only this Lauritz Hermansen:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rme/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rme/)
The Church Books for Silkeborg (in Skanderborg amt) start from 1856.
Thanks, Isabel. The Lauritz Hermansen you found on the Danish Emigrant database may be the one I am looking for. I can't find any information on what happened to him after his arrival in Australia though and whether that is the same Lauritz that somehow ended up in New Zealand two years later.
If Lauritz's details are correct, would you expect to see him showing up in a census somewhere between 1850-ish and 1879 (which is when he apparently arrived in New Zealand)?
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Hi
I have this Lauritz Hermansen born 1849 in the moving books. I have him in some other records and it looks he could be your man or at least the same man from the emigration record.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21585086#364661,70617532 - first line
It is a wee bit late here in Sweden so I'll post more tomorrow once I have them collected.
Ian
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Oh, wow — this is incredible (and, yes, it certainly is late in Sweden right now ... I just googled the time there)! :o
These questions are all for when you're back at your computer next: :)
Is there another name written after 'Hermansen'? I can't quite figure out what it says.
Do you know what is written in the columns to the right of Lauritz's name?
And, because I am full of questions ... what is a 'moving book'?
Thanks so much. :)
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I have this Lauritz Hermansen born 1849 in the moving books. I have him in some other records and it looks he could be your man or at least the same man from the emigration record.
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21585086#364661,70617532 - first line
This could be same the same guy departing ("afgang"?) from the same place (i.e. Kragelund, Viborg) 3 years later:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9ZX-ZW85 (#14)
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Yes this is him.
Ian
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Do you know what is written in the columns to the right of Lauritz's name?
It says Frøbøsse.
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And, because I am full of questions ... what is a 'moving book'?
It is a book the minister wrote all the arrivals and departures of people to and from the parish.
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Do you know what is written in the columns to the right of Lauritz's name?
The columns state where to and where from he came/went.
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Do you know what is written in the columns to the right of Lauritz's name?
It says Frøbøsse.
i.e. So that (1 Nov) 1870 departure from Kragelund, Viborg coincides with the arrival of a “Laurits H Frøboste” in Svostrup, Viborgon on 5 Nov 1870:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9ZX-WJKR (#20)
And, there is this 22 Dec 1849 birth and 24 Dec 1849 baptism in Fødsselsstiftelsen, Copenhagen:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94Q-5VP4?i=204 (#364)
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Hi TreeSpirit
Yes this is the guy. I have all his records from birth to his departure. I just haven't posted yet.
Ian
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The man from the emigration record posted here is this man I have found.
His name was Laurits Herman Frøbøsse born 22 Dec 1849. His mother's name was Amalie Magdalene Frøbøsse born 26 March 1828. He and his sister Henriette Marie Hermansen were adopted.
Edit: incorrect.
1849 - Birth - 22 Dec - Lauritz Herman Frøbøsse:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16415220#23,17651 - nr 12
1850 - Birth - 28 March - Henriette Marie Hermansen - Lauritz's sister:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16415220#25,18845 - nr 174
1864 - Confirmation - 3 April - Lauritz Herman Frøbøsse - Kragelund Parish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21585086#364658,70617455 - nr 3 bottom of page
Ian
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He married and had a daughter:
1875 - Marriage - 13 July - Alma Margrethe Monrad - Bording Parish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21619357#398723,74465282 - nr 2
1876 - Birth - 15 Oct - Signe Jacobine Monrad Hermansen - Them Parish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21618845#383952,74073641 - nr 36
Ian
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Alma Margrethe Monrad - 1870 Census - Almind Parish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=52206#52206,11779817 - first family
Alma and Signe - 1880 Census - Almind Parish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?bsid=54467#54467,11923834 - first family
The parish from the emigration record stated Almind Parish as last residence.
Ian
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“Lauritz Herrmansen” departure from Hamburg to Maryborough ... can anyone read the name of his previous residence?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSZY-M9YD-7?i=149 (bottom of right hand page)
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In Hamburg Passenger lists on Ancestry they have transcribed the previous residence as Copenhagen.
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In Hamburg Passenger lists on Ancestry they have transcribed the previous residence as Copenhagen.
Thanks ... I'd never guessed that the first letter was a "K" ....
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Lauritz mother's surname was Terkelsen.
Her birth record:
1829 - Garnisons Parish Copenhagen:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=21618415#380081,73916873 - nr 24
1855 Cenus - Copenhagen:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?bsid=120681#120681,17465903
Ian
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I have to add that I have had some great help from a number of very helpful Danes in obtaining and understanding some of these records.
This record shows Alma and Lauritz divorce:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=258413#258413,48192690 - 12/1882 - bottom right.
"Skilsmisseopgørelse" is Divorce settlement.
Over the page on the right in the middle it states that in May 1878 he had travelled to Hamburg. He then had travelled on to Australia.
This is not a translation as it is very difficult to read and my Danish isn't up to it either. I understand a little of it but I get the jist of it.
This is the same Laurentz who is on the passenger list posted earlier by Isabel H.
Ian
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Lauritz's mother was sent away to give birth anonymously as she was not married. So there is no father recorded unfortunately, although the name Herman might be a clue.
So Lauritz made his parent's names up.
Ian
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Incredible! I have spent much of today reading over each of the posts and looking up the links — I am overwhelmed by everyone’s helpfulness and generosity of time. I am incredibly thankful for the research skills and detective work you have each brought to this post — you have managed to discover more about Lauritz in just a couple of days than I have in one year of searching (I’ve obviously got a lot to learn)! Ian, please also pass on my sincere gratitude to the Danes that helped you with your research.
I do have a few questions, so I will add them below in separate posts.
In the meantime, I will now get to work confirming the Lauritz that emigrated to Australia was the one who ended up in New Zealand a year or so later.
Julia
P.S. It’s interesting to note that Lauritz’s divorce settlement in Denmark occurred just two months before he married in New Zealand (he also stated he was a bachelor on his marriage record here)!
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1849 - Birth - 22 Dec - Lauritz Herman Frøbøsse:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16415220#23,17651 - nr 12
1850 - Birth - 28 March - Henriette Marie Hermansen - Lauritz's sister:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16415220#25,18845 - nr 174
Wow. Lauritz had a sister! Great detective work, Ian!
Is anyone able to translate the information written on Lauritz's birth record?
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Lauritz mother's surname was Terkelsen.
Her birth record:
1829 - Garnisons Parish Copenhagen:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=21618415#380081,73916873 - nr 24
I note on the birth record that Lauritz’s mother’s name is slightly different — it looks like Magdalene Amalia Frobos (I’m not sure what is written underneath that)? Is it possible she altered her name to Amalie Magdalene Frøbøsse when she gave birth at Fødselsstiftelsen (for anonymity reasons)?
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This record shows Alma and Lauritz divorce:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/billedviser?bsid=258413#258413,48192690 - 12/1882 - bottom right.
"Skilsmisseopgørelse" is Divorce settlement.
Over the page on the right in the middle it states that in May 1878 he had travelled to Hamburg. He then had travelled on to Australia.
This is not a translation as it is very difficult to read and my Danish isn't upto it either. I understand a little of it but I get the jist of it.
Is anyone able to further the translate divorce settlement? Obviously not word for word, :) but to give a general idea of what else is mentioned?
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Lauritz mother's surname was Terkelsen.
Her birth record:
1829 - Garnisons Parish Copenhagen:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=21618415#380081,73916873 - nr 24
I note on the birth record that Lauritz’s mother’s name is slightly different — it looks like Magdalene Amalia Frobos (I’m not sure what is written underneath that)? Is it possible she altered her name to Amalie Magdalene Frøbøsse when she gave birth at Fødselsstiftelsen (for anonymity reasons)?
The word under her name is "uægte" meaning illegitimate.
In this case her mother's name is recorded first. The father was recorded as Johan Heinrich Frobøs.
I think that no one knew how to spell his surname so that is probably the reason why there are many variations.
Ian
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1849 - Birth - 22 Dec - Lauritz Herman Frøbøsse:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16415220#23,17651 - nr 12
1850 - Birth - 28 March - Henriette Marie Hermansen - Lauritz's sister:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16415220#25,18845 - nr 174
Is anyone able to translate the information written on Lauritz's birth record?
Not easy I'm afraid. It's not the translation but the deciphering that is difficult.
What I can make out is that she was 21 years old and born in Copenhagen and there is a street name at the end.
Ian
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Is anyone able to further the translate divorce settlement? Obviously not word for word, :) but to give a general idea of what else is mentioned?
I cannot do it unfortunately. If it was Swedish I would give a real go. You may have to pay someone to do it as it is very difficult to read. It is quite a few pages too. I have tried to make a headway but no go.
Ian
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Incredible! I have spent much of today reading over each of the posts and looking up the links — I am overwhelmed by everyone’s helpfulness and generosity of time. I am incredibly thankful for the research skills .........
You're welcome, just glad to help out.
Ian
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Signe's confirmation record from 1890 Serup Parish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21585078#364574,70615579 - top
Interestingly it states "Deceased labourer Larvids Hermansen"
Ian
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Re help translating divorce settlement, I have occasionally had help on this Danish forum which has a board for English speakers. https://forum.slaegt.dk/ (https://forum.slaegt.dk/)
You would need to register but it's not difficult.
Brugernavn = user name
Tillad brugere at e-maile mig = allow users to e-mail me
Vælg kodeord = choose password
Bekræft kodeord = verify password
An after-thought: It's a long document so if you do ask for help, post the link and ask if someone can give you the main points.
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Signe's confirmation record from 1890 Serup Parish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21585078#364574,70615579 - top
Interestingly it states "Deceased labourer Larvids Hermansen"
Fascinating! I wonder if that's what Signe believed about her father or whether it was considered scandalous to be the child of divorced parents? At the time of Singe's confirmation the New Zealand Lauritz was certainly alive and kicking, living it up with a new Danish wife and two children! :-*
Ian, do you know what the mg means in the last column?
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Re help translating divorce settlement, I have occasionally had help on this Danish forum which has a board for English speakers. https://forum.slaegt.dk/ (https://forum.slaegt.dk/)
Thanks so much for the suggestion, Isabel — really appreciate it. :)
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Signe's confirmation record from 1890 Serup Parish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=21585078#364574,70615579 - top
Interestingly it states "Deceased labourer Larvids Hermansen"
Fascinating! I wonder if that's what Signe believed about her father or whether it was considered scandalous to be the child of divorced parents? At the time of Singe's confirmation the New Zealand Lauritz was certainly alive and kicking, living it up with a new Danish wife and two children! :-*
Ian, do you know what the mg means in the last column?
"mg" stands for "meget godkendt" which means very well approved. I think it is describing their bible knowledge.
Ian
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"mg" stands for "meget godkendt" which means very well approved. I think it is describing their bible knowledge.
Thanks again, Ian — I appreciate being able to tap into your knowledge!
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Hi again
I found another Lauritz's sibling although with the same name as the one from 1854:
Henriette Marie Hermansen born 1856
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/da/billedviser?epid=16415220#25,19413
The Henriette born in 1854 must have died very early.
Ian
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Yes, Lauritz had two siblings named Henriette — they both died when they were young (1854 to some time before 1856, and 1856-1874).