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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: sophiamarina on Friday 10 June 22 02:05 BST (UK)
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Hello all. One of my great-grandfathers is currently a dead end, and I'm all out of ideas. I have a theory he might have changed surnames - how does this sound?
I have him in the 1901, 1911 and 1921 censuses. I also have his marriage certificate from 1910.
1901 census - says he is single
1910 marriage cert - says he is a widower, but I cannot find any record of the first marriage. Also simply says "Deceased" for father. This is what's given me the idea that he may have been born out of wedlock, as my experience is that even a deceased father would be named.
1911 and 1921 censuses consistent with 1901 census regarding age, place of birth and occupation. (Looks like he shaved a few years off his age on the marriage cert, perhaps because his bride, my great-grandmother, was a fair bit younger, but I've no doubt it's him).
What I'm missing is his entire life before 1901 - i.e. his birth and youth. He was born around 1877, and I have searched the records of the area he consistently claimed to have been born in, but those with his name turn out not to be him (e.g. same person still living there in later censuses when my ancestor had moved away). I then wondered whether he had been born under a different surname, and then later acquired his surname from a stepfather perhaps - or changed it for another reason. Therefore, his early records and first marriage could be under a different name (though that would mean a period of overlap since the 1901 census was presumably before the first marriage).
Does this sound possible? Any tips for how I could check this theory? Or am I missing something obvious? I know it's a little far fetched but I'd love to solve the mystery!
Unfortunately he had a really common name - both first name and surname - so it's a bit of a needle in a haystack job. I also can't find him or his wife in the 1939 register, though she was definitely alive and I think he was too. And I haven't found a death certificate for him yet. So, I don't know his exact date of birth.
Any tips appreciated!
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If you want help you need to give us his name, marriage, location on censuses etc.
Jamjar
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Start with the piece of information that you know to be him, and containing details that he gives about himself - the 1910 marriage certificate.
Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate......everything please....all the details on the certificate.
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Without more details it's impossible to reach any conclusions. Illegitimacy is very possible & his surname could be that of anybody who brought him up - not necessarily a stepfather.
If his mother married between his birth & the 1881 census he could appear on censuses under her married name but then chosen to be known under his birth surname as an adult.
It's all guesswork without the info requested above
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Thank you for all the replies and apologies for taking my time, been a bit busy!
Marriage certificate details:
7th July 1910, Ashcombe, Devon
Name: John Morris
Age: 31
Condition: Widower
Rank or Professional: Boots Manager (that's what it looks like; I know he was a shoe and boot shop manager so it makes sense).
Residence at time of marriage: Exeter St Paul's
Father's name and surname: "Deceased"
Father's Rank or Profession: (left blank)
Just going to track down the census returns as they're not where I thought I'd saved them. But for info till then, he claimed to be born in Ruabon, North Wales - probably a few years before the marriage certificate suggests, as he is a little older on other documents. (He's my only known Welsh ancestor, so I'd be interested to know how far back that goes!)
If anyone has access to census returns (I no longer have any subscriptions) and wants to beat me to it, you will find him and his wife Gladys the following year in Exeter St Paul's, in the 1911 census. In 1921 he is 43 and living in Tonypandy. He is also listed on this page which mentions the 1901 census (he was then in Cardiff): http://sites.rootsweb.com/~publicbenefit/biogio.html
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All the information on the 1910 marriage certificate should include all details about the bride...also witnesses names...church married in.......
If you have relevant comments about the information on the certificate, you should place them after the information.
You have the document, people on this forum do not have access to the document. We only know what you tell us about the information on the marriage certificate.
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Just to add - I've found my copy of the 1901 census return. Not sure how best to quote the reference - it says at the bottom RG13/4985, does that allow you to find the page? He is boarding at 18 Rawdon Place, Cardiff. The head of household is a John Whittington age 54, wife Caroline.
Interesting that my GGF is listed as an English speaker only, not even "both" languages. I don't know if that was completely normal for someone from North Wales at the time, or if it means anything. I remember looking at various earlier census returns for the Ruabon/Mold areas trying to find him, but I can't remember how common Welsh speaking seemed to be in that time and place.
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Census references contain 4 pieces of information:
Class: The National Archives reference (RG13 = 1901, RG12 = 1891, RG11 = 1881, etc)
Piece No: the subdivision (you have 4985)
There then should follow the Folio No, and Page No.
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Census references contain 4 pieces of information:
Class: The National Archives reference (RG13 = 1901, RG12 = 1891, RG11 = 1881, etc)
Piece No: the subdivision (you have 4985)
There then should follow the Folio No, and Page No.
I think Folio is 112 and page is 68.
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All the information on the 1910 marriage certificate should include all details about the bride...also witnesses names...church married in.......
If you have relevant comments about the information on the certificate, you should place them after the information.
You have the document, people on this forum do not have access to the document. We only know what you tell us about the information on the marriage certificate.
Bride is Gladys Fogwell and the witnesses were her mother and her brother. Her family go back hundreds of years in that local area, working on the land. It's the groom who is a stranger in that area with no apparent links to it, and no witness from his side. The shoe shop chain he worked for seem to have sent him to various branches around the south west and south Wales over the years, so he's a bit of a rolling stone in the landscape here...
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Ancestry
1901 Census Wales at 18 Rawson Parade St Mary West Cardiff
WHITTINGTON John 54y retired farmer b. Preston Baggett Warwick
WHITTINGTON Caroline M A 44y wife dressmaker b. Worster, Worstershire
OLIVER John * 25y bootshop ass. single b. Loughborough Leister
MORRIS John *5y bootshop ass. single b. Flintshire Mold
CRABBE Walter P 24y cycle fitter single b. Swansea Glamorgan
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1901
18 Rawdon Place, Cardiff
John Whittington Head m 54 born Warwickshire Retired Farmer
Caroline M A Whittington m Wife 44 born Worcestershire Dressmaker
John R Oliver Boarder 25 s born Leicestershire Boot and Shop Assistant
John Morris Boarder 25 s born Mold Flintshire Boot and Shop Assistant
Walter P Crabbe Boarder 21s born Glamorgan Cycle Fitter
John S Johnson Boarder 20 s born Glamorgan Manager of Provision Shop
RG13/4985/112/63
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That's the one! One of the other boarders looks to be a colleague, but other than that there are no apparent links to anyone.
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One to look into
There is a marriage
Edith Emma Mardon and John Morris in April/May/June1902 Exeter Devon.
There is a death for Edith Emma Morris in December 1902 Exeter Devonshire
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One to look into
There is a marriage
Edith Emma Mardon and John Morris in April/May/June1902 Exeter Devon.
There is a death for Edith Emma Morris in December 1902 Exeter Devonshire
Oh that's very interesting - thank you! I might order that marriage cert and see what it says.
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With the John in 1901 showing a birth place of Mold, Flintshire, have you considered this 1881 census entry in Mold? Everyone showing as born in Mold except mother Sarah:
John Morris 40 Farmer 80 Acres
Sarah Morris 35 b. Llangollen, Denbighshire
Catharine Morris 15
John Morris 8
Jane Morris 6
Anne Morris 2
Thomas Jones 16
Monica
ADDED: No, can't be the right John. The John above is busy helping his dad on the farm in 1901.
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He says "Rhuabon" in 1911 - there's a few the right sort of age in that area in earlier years
He might be a bit older than he claims. Edith Emma Morris who dies in 1902 was b c1868, and appears on 1901 to be a widow
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Thanks MonicaL, it did look vaguely familiar so I knew I'd probably considered and rejected it, and it must have been for the reason in your postscript! Maddening, isn't it - such a common name in that part of the country.
I've ordered that first wedding certificate from 1902, so I'm hoping there might be a clue about his father there - maybe an occupation or first name, even if he fudged the surname (I've seen this pattern on other wedding certificates of illegitimate children). The fact that no details beyond "deceased" were given in 1910 really does scream "illegitimate" to me, though perhaps the transcription could be a factor?
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He says "Rhuabon" in 1911 - there's a few the right sort of age in that area in earlier years
He might be a bit older than he claims. Edith Emma Morris who dies in 1902 was b c1868, and appears on 1901 to be a widow
Mm, I noticed she was a bit older than him. Interesting, thanks. Hopefully their wedding certificate will shed some light on his age at the time... Or muddy the waters further!
Just out of curiosity, do you recall where Edith was living in 1901? Was it Devon or Wales?
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She's living with her parents John & Elizabeth Dart in Exeter. She's a widowed confectioner's assistant, with a daughter who is still in Exeter in 1911
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What birth place showed for John in 1921?
Monica
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This presumably is related to Edith's death
MORRIS, EDITH NORA
mmn DART
Q4 1902
EXETER Volume 05B Page 70
MORRIS, EDITH NORA
Age at death 0
Q1 1903
EXETER Volume 05B Page 70
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Thanks, Mabel! Sounds like he was off to Exeter almost before the ink was dry on the 1901 census then (not that it makes any difference really, but interesting to have a picture of his movements).
MonicaL - it was Rhuabon again. I've put more faith in that since he gave it himself in 1911 and 1921, whereas in 1901 he was just a boarder and perhaps had less control over what was written (obviously Mold is the nearest big town to R(h)uabon though).
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Edith's father was a butcher, so they were all from the same class of small time shop keeper/worker.
Also worth noting the marriage was in Q2 and the death (presumably soon after Edith Nora's birth) in Q4. Either Edith Nora was premature or was already on the way when they married
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I wonder if Nora is significant, as daughter Daisy Nora Ann b 1912.
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This presumably is related to Edith's death
MORRIS, EDITH NORA
mmn DART
Q4 1902
EXETER Volume 05B Page 70
MORRIS, EDITH NORA
Age at death 0
Q1 1903
EXETER Volume 05B Page 70
Oh, that's very sad. What a sad coda to the tale :'(
I just double-checked on FreeBMD and think perhaps you meant to write Edith Emma for the mum?
Interesting that baby was Edith Nora, as John's eldest daughter from his second marriage had the middle name Nora and was known as Nora.
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I wonder if Nora is significant, as daughter Daisy Nora Ann b 1912.
You beat me to it! Yes, she was known as Nora too.
Mabel - that's interesting, starting to get a fuzzy picture of these butchers, confectioners and shoe shop keepers!
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Just a bit of newspaper trivia in case the street names help:
Exeter Flying Post 06 August 1892
MARDON - DART- Aug 1, at St Paul's Church, Exeter.
Henry James Mardon to Edith Emma Dart, both of Paul-street, Exeter
Western Times 20 January 1899
Deaths
MARDON - Jan 14, at 34, Rosebery Road, Exeter, Henry James Mardon, age 32.
Exeter and Plymouth Gazette 13 January 1900
In Memoriam
MARDON. In loving memory of Henry James Mardon, who fell asleep January 14th, 1899
"A light is from our household gone,
A voice we loved is stilled
A place is vacant in our home
Which never can be filled."
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Paul Street is where Edith is living with her parents in 1901
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1939 free index
John Morris, born 1878, 53 Cae Gwyn Road, Cardiff
Redacted entries after him on ancestry.
Electoral register 1939
53 Caegwyn Road
John Morris
Gladys Marion Morris
John Percival Morris
MORRIS, JOHN PERCIVAL
Mother's Maiden Surname: FOGWELL
GRO Reference: 1916 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1236
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Redacted entries after him on ancestry.
You can just see a bit of the end of the occupation of the one under him
Possibly going to be Duties, as in Unpaid Domestic?
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Also there are
Stanley P Down
+
Daisy N A Morris
June 1937, East Glamorgan 11a 1496
I wonder if Nora is significant, as daughter Daisy Nora Ann b 1912.
Born 1911, registered March qtr 1912
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1939 free index
John Morris, born 1878, 53 Cae Gwyn Road, Cardiff
Redacted entries after him on ancestry.
Electoral register 1939
53 Caegwyn Road
John Morris
Gladys Marion Morris
John Percival Morris
MORRIS, JOHN PERCIVAL
Mother's Maiden Surname: FOGWELL
GRO Reference: 1916 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1236
Thank you! That's amazing. Definitely them, I've heard of that address. Based on the details you provided, I have purchased the full 1939 Register record from FindMyPast and now know that his DOB was 11th January 1878.
Or at least, that's what he said it was!
This also accounts for the whole family's whereabouts in 1939 now, I think (I'm assuming the two redacted lines are wife (end of "unpaid domestic duties", I agree) and youngest daughter, and I already know his son was elsewhere) - so that's nice.
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Ok - armed with the DOB, I've searched FindMyPast and found and purchased a baptism record which fits. Only thing is, I'm sure I looked at it last year and rejected it for some reason - but I may well have been wrong to do so. Details below:
Parish: Ruabon
Date of baptism: 17/02/1878
Name: John
Parents: John and Sarah Morris
Abode: Cemetery Lodge
Rank, quality or profession: Labourer
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That baptism looks promising!
And news of John's death.
National Probate Calendar 1954
John Morris of 53 Caegwyn Road Whitchurch
Died 16 Dec 1953
Administration (with Will) to Gladys Marion Morris, widow
Effects £1649 9s. 1d.
Maybe
Dec 1953 East Glamorgan 8b 271
Morris, John
age 75
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Thank you jonw65! Looks like we have filled in the gaps at the beginning and end of his life! I had really lost hope; should have asked on here sooner!
I'm now going to work backwards and look at his probable parents, John and Sarah. I've found the family in the 1881 census (still living at Cemetery Lodge and John sr. is a sexton), and from that got John and Sarah's ages and places of birth. I'll give it a rest for the night but this is all very promising.