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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Gemini37 on Friday 27 May 22 10:46 BST (UK)
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G'day Members, it has been many years since I was last on this great forum.
I am seeking the death record of Agnes HARRIS.
Spouse Henry HARRIS married 1879 reg at Goulburn.
Children known:
William John 1880 Goulburn
Agnes M 1882 Argyle
Elizabeth J 1888 Robertson
And hopefully the death of Henry.
Many thanks in anticipation
Gemini37
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What are the dates of birth and the parents’ names for Henry and Agnes, please?
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NSW BDM indexes are free to search online.
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/
Debra :)
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That's the trouble Neale, I do not know.
I only know the marriage details and the area of the marriage.
Thanks for your response
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Thank you Debra I have checked but nothing to my satisfaction.
Regards Wal
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Parents’ names will be on marriage certificate.
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Thanks Neale.
Wal
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Agnes M 1882 Argyle
Is this Agnes' marriage?
5568/1906
ANGEL, ARTHUR E
HARRIS, AGNES M
WAGGA WAGGA
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/145031549
Sister is Miss E. HARRIS, mother Mrs GROVES.
Death
ANGEL, AGNES MARTHA
15185/1966
Father: HENRY
Mother: AGNES
WYONG
Elizabeth J. step daughter of Mr Charles GROVES.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/142575804
3487/1913
HANBRIDGE, FRANK W
HARRIS, ELIZABETH J
WAGGA WAGGA
Debra :)
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Marriage
3557/1893
GROVE, CHARLES
HARRIS, AGNES
GOULBURN
Death
HARRIS, HENRY
6589/1891
Father: JOHN
Mother: UNKNOWN
GOULBURN
Debra :)
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/98539433
Mr. Henry Harris, a maintenance man, living in Deccan-street, died early this morning from bronchitis, brought on by influenza. Deceased was 72 years of age, and had only recently come from Maurulan. The funeral will take place tomorrow.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/219924425
In the will of Henry Harris, late of Groulburn, in the Colony of New South Wales, maintenance man, deceased......Agnes Harris, of Goulburn, widow....
Debra :)
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G'day Members, it has been many years since I was last on this great forum.
I am seeking the death record of Agnes HARRIS.
Spouse Henry HARRIS married 1879 reg at Goulburn.
Children known:
William John 1880 Goulburn
Agnes M 1882 Argyle
Elizabeth J 1888 Robertson
And hopefully the death of Henry.
Many thanks in anticipation
Gemini37
And
Parents’ names will be on marriage certificate.
NO,
The clergy of all denominations across NSW basically ONLY presented NSW BDM with a summary of the ceremonies they conducted from 1856 to 1895, a long running dispute. Please check, RChats resources board, There is a thread on it, now quite long, that I prepared on how to overcome the "elusive blanks' on NSW BDM records. It took until 1911 until NSW BDM had the funding to commence reconciling their meagre holdings with actual parish registers. They started with metro Sydney. Then WWI needed experienced clerks to keep our volunter AIF base records, so the medically UNFIT for front line soldiering in France took on that task.... and set aside public service clerical duties in each state.
The marriage reconcilation process in NSW BDM has never been resumed, so non Metro marriages still do not have all the details found on church recordss.
NSW BDM website, itself, acknowledges this.
So too peak bodies family history, And some filming of individual church registers can be found at SAG and at NLA and via family search.
The elusive blanks are NOT a brickwall, just a hurdle.
Get an official transcription of the NSW BDM. It will have the clergy's name, and denomination and exact lication for ceremony.
ONE FINGER TYPING ON TINY SCREEN. Please accept apologies for typos.
JM
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Once you have official transcription you then know where to commence for the parents names and other info about bride and groom, and you have valuable quality first hand info.
JM
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Hi,
There is absolutely Nothing controversial in the facts I posted in my reply. It is accurate, relevant, and offers a way for any family history buff, to advance their NSW mid to late 19th century search for independent information about the parents of a couple who marry in rural/regional NSW, after commencement of civil registration in 1856, assuming they marry by clergy.
IF marriage is by the regional deputy registrar, it is unlikely he recorded any details about the parents of bride and groom.
My living ancient rellies, some aged 100 or more include retired Clergy and retired Senior Officers of NSW BDM.
They, like me, are shocked that there is NO response to my posts, on these thread.
JM .(add, reply 10 etc. It is 3.13 pm NSW time as I note this )
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Thank you Valerie, Neale and Debra for your help which I will pass on to my friend.
Appreciate your assistance.
Regards Wal
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Thank you Valerie, Neale and Debra for your help which I will pass on to my friend.
Appreciate your assistance.
Regards Wal
1879 marriage, registered Goulburn DIstrict of NSW
1. Agnes was recorded as ORMES as her family name as per the online INDEX. The topic makes NO mention of that surname.
2 She became Agnes HARRS upon her marriage.
3. That marriage cert issued by NSW bdm is NOT likely to have been reconciled by NSW BDM, as Goulburn district was not part of Metro Sydney.
4. When you obtain her NSW BDM death registration you need to appreciate that there is info on it, that cannot been verified without comparing with her marriage record,.
5. WhY .... the info on the death about the deceased's origins is NOT checked by BDM staff, it is NOT first hand, and it is given to the funeral director who then completes the lodging of the forms.
6. Whereas the info on marriage both the clergy record and on the meagre info on the actual civil rego I S first hand, given at a happy event by the bride.
The NSW BDM, encourages genealogists ( including part time family history buffs, indiviaual volunteers, uunpaid real people doing thwir own NSW 1800s trees, students in UNI courses, etc, )to check the chuch records.
This is not contraversial, it is a well known fact.
JM
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This looks like the death for Agnes GROVES
Agnes GROVES
At Redfern, New South Wales
Father William
Reg 10549/1923
Within the year following her marriage to Charles GROVES, Agnes had a daughter.
GROVE Annie
14159/1894
Parents CHARLES & AGNES
At GOULBURN
Regrettably this In memoriam notice regarding GROVES, does not use the given name, but was placed by the daughter Annie and sits well with the date of death of Agnes given above in which drills down to 25 August 1923
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143346362
A funeral notice. August 1923.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16090196
I suspect Agnes was the daughter of William ORME, convict per Lady Nugent ( arr 1835 ) and wife Ellen .
Marriage
463/1843 V1843463 27C
ORME William
MAGGITT Ellen
MC
(M C code is Church of England Bungonia; Goulburn; St Saviour's (Co. Argyle); Goulburn Plains; Lake Bathurst; Marulan)
This man lived and died around Bungonia where he had offspring.
This is the correct GROVE couple mentioned in 1916 at Wagga
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141884009
Maybe this Charles GROVE of Wagga who lived in a tent that was burnt down in 1926
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/145250593
Most of this is conjecture and not worthy of entering into a carefully prepared family history.
Certificates are needed as advised .
Sue
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I agree with Debra’s findings because William John also ends up in Wyong, where his sister’s death is recorded.
7260/1960 HARRIS William John parents HENRY and AGNES at WYONG
HARRIS William John Death notice 29FEB1960 Death 79 late of Wyong Sydney Morning Herald 2MAR1960
HARRIS William John Obituary 28FEB1960 Death 79 late of Wyong Wyong Advocate 2MAR1960
Death and funeral notices for Arthur Edward ANGEL, 1st page: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19590106&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
ANGEL Agnes Martha Death notice 30JAN1966 Death 83 late of The Entrance Sydney Morning Herald 31JAN1966
The Agnes who died in 1923 is buried alone, at Rookwood.
15956/1980 HANBRIDGE Elizabeth Jane parents WILLIAM and AGNES
23393/1957 HANBRIDGE Francis William parents ARTHUR and MARGARET at JUNEE
If you do a search for Clement Arthur Hanbridge - a son of the above - photos pop up on Ancestry and there is one of Francis William included.
Jamjar
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There is an Ancestry tree, which I don’t have access to, which shows Agnes as:
Agnes Elizabeth Ann Orme Holmes And death as 1934
“Born in Bungonia, New South Wales on 12 Jun 1854 to William Orme and Ellen Peters (Meggett, Orme). Agnes Elizabeth Ann Orme Holmes had 2 children. She passed away on 1934 in Manly, New South Wales.”
It doesn’t add up. ☹️
Jamjar
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There is an Ancestry tree, which I don’t have access to, which shows Agnes as:
Agnes Elizabeth Ann Orme Holmes And death as 1934
“Born in Bungonia, New South Wales on 12 Jun 1854 to William Orme and Ellen Peters (Meggett, Orme). Agnes Elizabeth Ann Orme Holmes had 2 children. She passed away on 1934 in Manly, New South Wales.”
It doesn’t add up. ☹️
Jamjar
This rootschat thread from 2015 in replies # 52 and # 53 the poster asserts that Ellen, the mother of Agnes (nee ORME) assumed the name HOLMES or HOMES after the death of her husband William ORME in 1863
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=700942.54
It is suggested that some of her children also used the name HOLMES.
For me, the death of someone called Agnes Elizabeth Ann Orme Holmes in 1934 at Manly is not locatable.
Sue
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What can I say with you guys and gals.
Many thanks, it has given me a lot to work with.
Regards Wal