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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: lydiaann on Wednesday 25 May 22 16:43 BST (UK)
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The following is a quote from "The Madness of Crowds" by Louise Penny, a Canadian author.
Reine-Marie Gamache, an archivist, is going through a box of possessions that she has been asked to sort and classify. Please note, in my own mind, I have added the word "genealogists"...you will see where when you read it.
"...And there were letters. Lots of them.
"Taking out a pile and smoothing them on her lap, Reine-Marie picked up the top one and wondered, not for the first time, what the next general of archivists and biographers would do. No one wrote letters anymore. No one had printed photographs and albums for historians, or even family members, to pore over. Everything was in a cloud and needed a password...".
Discuss.
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No one wrote letters anymore. No one had printed photographs and albums for historians, or even family members, to pore over.
And no-one bothered to marry either, and many liaisons only lasted a few years ....
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….. not sure how it will all work with surrogate mothers …. :)
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I watched the Stacey Dooley DNA programme yesterday.
Using DNA, a deceased, sperm donor father was traced. The adult daughter was thrilled to be presented with a half sibling.
Using DNA, a happily adopted mother of 6 learned about her biological father.
Using DNA, a father of 2 was told he did not carry the same gene thought to have caused a cancer in his brother.
I guess there is the future of genealogy?
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Yes, mowsehowse, I agree with you. But will it tell their descendants what their life was like, the clothes they wore, the jobs they had to do to survive, where they met their future spouses? Will it show their struggles with loss of jobs because of injury, sickness, or even sheer bad luck?
I struggled when I first started out on my journey...I had the photos but very, very few of them were ascribed to a certain person or place. A couple had names on them that I did not recognise and only found them years later when researching whole families (rather than just the direct ancestor). In that respect, I am gradually completing the task and annotating the photos with names, dates and occasion. I still have a few to go but, having been bolstered by another very recent discovery, I am confident that these last few will reveal their secrets to me.
I have received facsimiles of handwritten letters and I make it a priority that I 'decipher' them and type them up so that others can read them. And they reveal some very interesting and sad information. I wouldn't get that from DNA.
Sadly, I think 'Reine-Marie' was right - and it is a shame in my estimation.
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Well as was said of poor Trigger in “ Only Fools and Horses”,that on his
Birth Certificate ,under FATHER it said “ Some soldiers “ ——-
As for writing letters, I cannot find notepaper,writing paper ,stationery etc anywhere in our town and as yet not in Bury either!
So it is obviously assumed that people don’t write letters any more,well they won’t will they if there is no #&&#&& paper to write on!
I find it all rather sordid and given the behaviour of many children now — ,without the framework of family etc goodness only knows how much worse it will get.
We need a few retrograde steps never mind “ future developments” .
Oh I am going for a nice cup of tea before that is a thing of the past.
Viktoria.
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Viktoria - try W H Smith
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Viktoria - try W H Smith
And it doesn't have to be 'writing paper' - you can find A4 for printers in many supermarkets, and easily make A5 if you wish.
I too watched the DNA programme yesterday - or most of it, I got fed up with the woman who seemed well-adjusted with 6 children (plenty enough :() but wanted to be told whether they could have inherited her killer father's nature. Couldn't help wondering what would have happened if she had been told Yes ... ::)
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Thanks, I have folded A4 but the size of envelope does look rather “businesslike” .
I like to have the heavy lined guide paper to keep my lines of writing straight.
Which came first? No paper so emails or emails so no paper?
Stop the world I want to get off .
I am going to look at my six month old great grand daughter—- playing to the camera you could believe.
A touch of reality!
Thanks to you both.V .
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I too watched the DNA programme yesterday - or most of it, I got fed up with the woman who seemed well-adjusted with 6 children (plenty enough :() but wanted to be told whether they could have inherited her killer father's nature. Couldn't help wondering what would have happened if she had been told Yes ... ::)
Quite so Andrew.
[killer, (putative,) father.]
If I am honest, the entire programme made me very angry on various levels!
LYDIAANN Quote:"But will it tell their descendants what their life was like, the clothes they wore, the jobs they had to do to survive, where they met their future spouses? Will it show their struggles with loss of jobs because of injury, sickness, or even sheer bad luck? "
All true of course, but only those family tree makers with an interest in social history actually look at this kind of dimension.
Not the ones who are simply interested in "getting back" to Charlemagne, (or identifying biological parents.)
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I write very few letters now, it probably started when most people got telephones. I did write sometimes to my very old uncle when he moved to Somerset, (typed on the computer and printed, so I still have copies.) I also wrote long, rambling letters to my son when he lived in South Africa in the early 2000s, which he tells me he has kept. They were written over several days - family news, village news (BMDs!), garden and weather reports - I hope they will be of interest.
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In the olden days when I was a regular visitor to family history centres to go through fiche and films of parish records, I used to bore others with my view that I was a family historian and not a genealogist (ignoring the geneologists!). I maintained then and still do that they are two different things, genealogy is essential to the family history but many so-called genealogists are not interested in family or social history which is the background to our ancestor's families lives. So many family trees are being created and posted on the various sites which are just the results of sometimes dubious dna results and not of the patient research required for a proper ancestral family tree. I could go on and on.....
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I so agree, edmac. It's all very well knowing/finding out who your antecedents were but I fully believe that how their lives and experiences are just as important to us and who we are today as is their DNA. And despite the fact that relatives don't want/haven't the time to do the investigative research, they are all fascinated to know the things I have turned up in regard to status, occupations, places they lived, etc!!
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I think the future is bright ...
For instance: On Ancestry I take the time to fill out biographies of people I have information about on my tree. I also find, scan and archive photographs of people and places and upload to Ancestry.
The key vision here is: Accessability & sharing of knowledge
* Nephews, Nieces & Grandchildren will have the ability to easily view, investigate & learn about their family from their own devices, their computers, ipads etc.
* Old photos which were locked away in cupboards and unsorted bags of various branches of the family are now stored-sorted and saved for future generations.
* Other families and researcher will have access to all my work which can broaden other peoples knowledge.
This is all positive. I could of course download all the information and store it away on my hard disk, but in many ways that is worse than a 'Cloud lock & key' as nobody is ever going to be able to bother looking on one of my back-up hard drives if I'm ever not here.
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Stormi, I take your point but wish I was as sanguine as you. Like yourself I fill in details on my public tree and make notes on sources which are in error or mistranscribed. My tree is as accurate as I have been able to make it and I know that what I am passing on is correct. But how does one mark that kind of tree to show that it has been researched as against those which contain large chunks copied from trees on geni and my heritage which erroneously purport to show that my GGG grandfather from Dumfries was a descendant of Robert the Bruce?
I wish I knew the answer to that, but then again, at my age why should I care?
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But how does one mark that kind of tree to show that it has been researched as against those which contain large chunks copied from trees on geni and my heritage which erroneously purport to show that my GGG grandfather from Dumfries was a descendant of Robert the Bruce?
I wish I knew the answer to that, but then again, at my age why should I care?
This is true - there will always be those who do not put the correct effort into their trees. As long as yours is available and public though, true genealogists and family historians will be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. Your family will also know that your work is the one to look at.
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It's interesting isn't. Two dilemma's here. What will happen to the work we ourselves have done, and what will happen to those in hundreds of years who want to trace us.
I suspect that depends on how much of our digital data survives. In theory, it could be copied indefinitely and survive on ever more devices until no-one bothers to copy them anymore. But will anyone bother? I suspect some of our social media accounts will survive, but how much useful information you leave behind will depend on how heavy of a user you are.
As to our individual work, I think that's up to us. I'm currently writing out about one branch of my family tree, for a relative who wants to see it on paper, and I will eventually print it out and have it bound. It's a bit daunting as it takes ages when you eventually get down to it. It's really been worth it for me as a learning experience. But then again, all of that is subject to the whims of time. Will anyone save it and will anyone care?
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As to our individual work, I think that's up to us ... Will anyone save it and will anyone care?
This question is posed here from time to time. I think the short answer is Very Few. We mostly search for our own interest and satisfaction, enjoying the advantages of all the recently available info. Some of us are lucky to have an interested younger family member to inherit. Those who don't may have filled their time worthily but with little 'future'. Sad, but perhaps true - much research appears a waste of time, 50 years later :(
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Keep going, keep going with your research.
Increasingly, there are areas of social history and public health that are using intergenerational studies for research.
Your good family history work, well researched, fully referenced, will provide information that is beyond the resources that an academic researcher can hope to access eg funding for assistants.
How aspirational were the family?.
To what extent did they look for, and avail themselves of opportunities?.
Were they involved in community activities?
Was religion important to them or were they willing to step away for the sake of chances in life?
How did the family manage life's problems....personal, financial?
Did they do it better than those around them?
What did they die of?..........did they have access to medical care?
When you have constructed the family tree, now go for the branches and leaves ie the minutiae, the trivial, the mundane.....everything.
When we do good family history work, well researched, fully referenced, we are a research assistant, adding to a pool of information. We might not see the application of the information in our life time, but it will be used.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-25/the-health-effects-of-convict-transportation-to-tasmania/6720312
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I keep an extensive day to day diary and regularly take advantage of Facebook and Twitter's "download my data" functionality. I take loads of photos. I index everything. If a future genealogist has any interest in me, I've made as much available as I possibly can.
Maybe it's up to us as genealogists to encourage others to do the same?
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The following is a quote from "The Madness of Crowds" by Louise Penny, a Canadian author.
Reine-Marie Gamache, an archivist, is going through a box of possessions that she has been asked to sort and classify. Please note, in my own mind, I have added the word "genealogists"...you will see where when you read it.
"...And there were letters. Lots of them.
"Taking out a pile and smoothing them on her lap, Reine-Marie picked up the top one and wondered, not for the first time, what the next general of archivists and biographers would do. No one wrote letters anymore. No one had printed photographs and albums for historians, or even family members, to pore over. Everything was in a cloud and needed a password...".
Discuss.
I agree with the sentiments behind Reine-Marie's thoughts, in today's world few people save piles of papers and letters, many "courting" couples don't even send each others letters even when they live some distance from each other as they can Whats app or Zoom call each other instead, very little is recorded on paper in favour of messaging and websites.
This is a two edged sword on one side there is the possibility that the internet company will archive all the messages and websites, but will they be indexed and/or accessible to future generations?
The other side is most people believe the internet companies automatically archivee everything and do not even think for a minute about whether it will be accessible in the future.
I suggest that every serious family historian or genealogist publish their finding in a stem book or family tree book and donate at least one copy of it to the copyright library (legal deposit library) of their country.
The UK legal deposit library is the British Library, London but there are actually six more in the UK.
The National Library of Scotland, The National Library of Wales, The Bodleian Library University of Oxford, Cambridge University Library and The Library of Trinity College Dublin.
If such a deposit is done then future generations of your family will be able to access the work you have done recording your family history.
Cheers
Guy
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Just a small addition to a very interesting topic, my daughter was obviously ill, strange symptoms which were getting dangerous ,she had to call two people on a couple of occasions ,one to drive her home and one her vehicle.
Pins and needles in limbs, unclear thinking etc etc.
Various tests and always her Dad and I with her for the above reasons.
At one the Dr, called me in ,” Have there been any incidents of sudden death of young people in your family attributable to Cardiac arrest ?”
My answer was no but there were young deaths ,from Pernicious Anaemia, in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s and a middle aged woman.
I explained all I had found out from family stories backed up by Death Certs .
Both sides of my family ,mother’sisters and father’s grandmother ,cousins etc.
That saved a test called I think The Schilling Test ,to see the abnormal shape of red blood cells in P.A, which cause clotting and difficulties in the small capilliaries .
Not much really ,but oral tradition backed by documents got things moving very quickly , not so for my rellies sadly .
Incidentally it was RootsChatters who traced that great grandmother when she put a false name in the 1891 census !
For which I am still truly grateful !
Viktoria.
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I suggest that every serious family historian or genealogist publish their finding in a stem book or family tree book and donate at least one copy of it to the copyright library (legal deposit library) of their country.
The UK legal deposit library is the British Library, London but there are actually six more in the UK.
The National Library of Scotland, The National Library of Wales, The Bodleian Library University of Oxford, Cambridge University Library and The Library of Trinity College Dublin.
If such a deposit is done then future generations of your family will be able to access the work you have done recording your family history.
Guy, in practical terms, are you suggesting a published book?. I may be wrong but surely the depositories you mention will require an ISBN to include a book on their catalogue? I actually produced a descendant chart(list) and had it published on Amazon, bought sufficient copies for the relatives at a reunion, and then withdrew it from public sale because it included living people. To be honest it did not occur to me to send to the British libary!! Mea culpa, must do better next time.
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I suggest that every serious family historian or genealogist publish their finding in a stem book or family tree book and donate at least one copy of it to the copyright library (legal deposit library) of their country.
The UK legal deposit library is the British Library, London but there are actually six more in the UK.
The National Library of Scotland, The National Library of Wales, The Bodleian Library University of Oxford, Cambridge University Library and The Library of Trinity College Dublin.
If such a deposit is done then future generations of your family will be able to access the work you have done recording your family history.
Guy, in practical terms, are you suggesting a published book?. I may be wrong but surely the depositories you mention will require an ISBN to include a book on their catalogue? I actually produced a descendant chart(list) and had it published on Amazon, bought sufficient copies for the relatives at a reunion, and then withdrew it from public sale because it included living people. To be honest it did not occur to me to send to the British libary!! Mea culpa, must do better next time.
Sorry but you are wrong, a book does not require an ISBN as the British Library states "If your publications do not have an ISBN or ISSN, you still need to deposit them.
The requirement to deposit an item does not depend on its having been allocated an International Standard Book Number (ISBN) or Serial Number (ISSN), but on whether or not it can be considered to have been published. A work is said to have been published when copies of it are issued to the public.
The place of publication or printing, the nature of the imprint and size of distribution are immaterial. It is the act of issuing or distributing to the public in the United Kingdom which renders a work liable for deposit."
Full details at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rkp/
Incidentally the mailing address of the legal Deposit Office is:-
Legal Deposit Office
The British Library
Boston Spa
Wetherby
West Yorkshire LS23 7BY
Full details on the website, url listed above, those who offer charts etc., online may be advised to take a look also.
Cheers
Guy
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I keep an extensive day to day diary and regularly take advantage of Facebook and Twitter's "download my data" functionality. I take loads of photos. I index everything. If a future genealogist has any interest in me, I've made as much available as I possibly can.
Maybe it's up to us as genealogists to encourage others to do the same?
But remember that we are advised to be suspicious, and to verify any facts provided by others. So you could just leave it up to them, giving them the most satisfaction ? :D
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I suggest that every serious family historian or genealogist publish their finding in a stem book or family tree book and donate at least one copy of it to the copyright library (legal deposit library) of their country.
The UK legal deposit library is the British Library, London but there are actually six more in the UK.
The National Library of Scotland, The National Library of Wales, The Bodleian Library University of Oxford, Cambridge University Library and The Library of Trinity College Dublin.
If such a deposit is done then future generations of your family will be able to access the work you have done recording your family history.
Guy, in practical terms, are you suggesting a published book?. I may be wrong but surely the depositories you mention will require an ISBN to include a book on their catalogue? I actually produced a descendant chart(list) and had it published on Amazon, bought sufficient copies for the relatives at a reunion, and then withdrew it from public sale because it included living people. To be honest it did not occur to me to send to the British libary!! Mea culpa, must do better next time.
Sorry but you are wrong, a book does not require an ISBN as the British Library states "If your publications do not have an ISBN or ISSN, you still need to deposit them.
The requirement to deposit an item does not depend on its having been allocated an International Standard Book Number (ISBN) or Serial Number (ISSN), but on whether or not it can be considered to have been published. A work is said to have been published when copies of it are issued to the public.
The place of publication or printing, the nature of the imprint and size of distribution are immaterial. It is the act of issuing or distributing to the public in the United Kingdom which renders a work liable for deposit."
Full details at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rkp/
Incidentally the mailing address of the legal Deposit Office is:-
Legal Deposit Office
The British Library
Boston Spa
Wetherby
West Yorkshire LS23 7BY
Full details on the website, url listed above, those who offer charts etc., online may be advised to take a look also.
Cheers
Guy
Unfortunately Guy I have suffered for many years as a pedant;-)
Is there a definition of "issued to the publ;ic" ? Were my copies given away at a family reunion issued to the public and therefore requiring a deposit? This is not a subject I have studied. I have known of the Legal deposit Office, obviously for many years but thought it only referred to "published Books". I always stand to be corrected. regards Ed>
cheesrs Edc
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Unfortunately Guy I have suffered for many years as a pedant;-)
Is there a definition of "issued to the publ;ic" ? Were my copies given away at a family reunion issued to the public and therefore requiring a deposit? This is not a subject I have studied. I have known of the Legal deposit Office, obviously for many years but thought it only referred to "published Books". I always stand to be corrected. regards Ed>
cheesrs Edc
I would say yes, as it does not mention selling but instead issued, but until that was decided in a court it would be open to interpretation.
There is also a bit about depositing print even if you publish the same content in digital format could that include websites? "You need to deposit print content until you have successfully registered for depositing digitally and the British Library or another deposit library has confirmed that your digital content can be processed and preserved."
Cheers
Guy