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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Rosegold89 on Saturday 21 May 22 20:01 BST (UK)
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My great great great grandmother Barbara Muth was said to be from Germany and I think she came to Britain at around the time of the German revolution. Working as a dressmaker in White Chapel on the 1851 census and then marrying in Cardiff a few years later. However on her marriage certificate it shows two different names. With the other one I can't quite understand the writing, not only that but judging by the accents on the letters it seems like it might be another language not German. Maybe it's possible she or her family came from one of the other Holy Roman Empire countries originally?
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http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Englisch/Sutterlin.htm
Barbara is the same spelling in German, but she seems to have written Barbarba. There is also a variant Bärbel. Surname is Muth in German script.
Czech and Slovak name for Barbara is Barbora.
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Muth surname distribution in Germany
https://www.kartezumnamen.eu/en/index.php?sur=muth&s=Search
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this has nothing to do with your person, but it does prove that there is/was a name Barbarba
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Ah thanks! Yeah I knew Muth was a German surname and Barbara does not seem to be uncommon there either. I just realised the picture doesn't show the whole certificate but the name directly underneath John Lewis is the one I was referring to. I thought it looked like it starts with 'La' and the surname looks different too?
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Hi Rosegold
In the link given by Fiddlerslass the capital B looks like an L in Suetterlin script
Jo
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Ah I see, thanks. Do you know if the earlier version of it that's mentioned is what could've been used? Because they married in 1853
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I find there is not much variation between the two scripts when reading German records through the 1800's.
Here is an article on Kurrent
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurrent
Here is one of my Barbara's, to show the writing, in a death register 1830 from the German speaking part of North Czechia, then part of Austro- Hungarian empire. Look under Februar
http://vademecum.soalitomerice.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=09ddd7cea03b9b8d:30bdd2c7:1201ea2ef5b:-77c5&scan=a939464924a2457a965be3058b7ee39f
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The certificate was issued by the GRO, and the fact that it incorporates a photocopy indicates that it's a direct copy of the return submitted at the end of the relevant quarter - note the wording "a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of the Register...."
So this isn't Barbara's own handwriting, but a reproduction of it by whoever completed the return - and it looks like a pretty good attempt at that script. Because of the repeated pattern of letters in her name, it's possible that the extra 'b' appeared at the time of copying (it's missing in the name box above), so you'd need to check the original register to see how she did actually sign.
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Can anyone find them in 1861 census. One son born 1859, one son 1861 both Cardiff, daughter 1865 bristol.
What was the occupation of John Lewis when he married please.
John
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I find there is not much variation between the two scripts when reading German records through the 1800's.
Here is an article on Kurrent
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurrent
Here is one of my Barbara's, to show the writing, in a death register 1830 from the German speaking part of North Czechia, then part of Austro- Hungarian empire. Look under Februar
http://vademecum.soalitomerice.cz/vademecum/permalink?xid=09ddd7cea03b9b8d:30bdd2c7:1201ea2ef5b:-77c5&scan=a939464924a2457a965be3058b7ee39f
Thanks!
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The certificate was issued by the GRO, and the fact that it incorporates a photocopy indicates that it's a direct copy of the return submitted at the end of the relevant quarter - note the wording "a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of the Register...."
So this isn't Barbara's own handwriting, but a reproduction of it by whoever completed the return - and it looks like a pretty good attempt at that script. Because of the repeated pattern of letters in her name, it's possible that the extra 'b' appeared at the time of copying (it's missing in the name box above), so you'd need to check the original register to see how she did actually sign.
Ah right yeah we asked to see a copy of the original but think they said they couldn't find it
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Can anyone find them in 1861 census. One son born 1859, one son 1861 both Cardiff, daughter 1865 bristol.
What was the occupation of John Lewis when he married please.
John
He was a cooper. As far as I know they had four children; James, John, Jane and William. Living in Bristol when Jane was born but they lived in Cardiff a lot too. Maybe he worked around port areas? I've no idea how they met but they married in Cardiff. Also don't know about the 1861 census, we haven't been able to find any of them on it so far. I've considered maybe they travelled out of country somewhere, back to Germany perhaps?
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Do you have the birth certificate for William to check the address? His birth was registered sept qtr 1861 Cardiff vol 11a pg 250. They could be at the same address for the census.
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Do you have the birth certificate for William to check the address? His birth was registered sept qtr 1861 Cardiff vol 11a pg 250. They could be at the same address for the census.
That's a good idea I don't think we have it but will try to get it ordered
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Found them in 1871 in St Mary, Cardiff. John is widowed and has his widdowed mother with him.
28 Tyndale St ED 14, schedule 693, piece 5361, folio 117 page 51
John Lewis 43 master Cooper born Newport, Monmouth shire
Jane Williams 79 mother born Brecon, Wales
John Lewis 14 born Cardiff
James ". 12 ". "
William. " 9 ". "
Jane. ". 6 Bristol
I do not see a death registration for a Barbara Lewis of the right age anywhere in England or Wales between 1865 (Janes birth) and 1871
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Hi Rosegold,
Just a wee bit of info on German accents over letters, in case it might be of help in the future. :)
As you probably know, umlauts are used in German: ä & ü.
If you are unable to type an umlaut, just add an "e" after the letter, i.e.: ae, ue.
To avoid "u" and "n" getting confused (in German script, this is possible), writers used to add a horizontal stroke above a "u". This was sometimes straight, sometimes almost half round.
Some writers still do this today, but it is becoming less popular. (As is actually writing using a pen, unfortunately... ::))
The thing is, people do not usually use the stroke above a "u" when signing their names. It is not normally a constituent of a signature. (There are, however, always exceptions to rules. ;))
I am therefore wondering whether Barbara's maiden name was actually Müth, because an umlaut is used in a signature if it contains a letter (or letters) which actually have an umlaut.
(I hope you can follow me! I know what I mean, but it is a bit tricky to explain it.)
I just wanted to mention this in case you are researching Barbara and are hitting brick walls. If that happens, try looking for Müth or Mueth.
Best regards,
Karen
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Hi Rosegold,
Just a wee bit of info on German accents over letters, in case it might be of help in the future. :)
As you probably know, umlauts are used in German: ä & ü.
If you are unable to type an umlaut, just add an "e" after the letter, i.e.: ae, ue.
To avoid "u" and "n" getting confused (in German script, this is possible), writers used to add a horizontal stroke above a "u". This was sometimes straight, sometimes almost half round.
Some writers still do this today, but it is becoming less popular. (As is actually writing using a pen, unfortunately... ::))
The thing is, people do not usually use the stroke above a "u" when signing their names. It is not normally a constituent of a signature. (There are, however, always exceptions to rules. ;))
I am therefore wondering whether Barbara's maiden name was actually Müth, because an umlaut is used in a signature if it contains a letter (or letters) which actually have an umlaut.
(I hope you can follow me! I know what I mean, but it is a bit tricky to explain it.)
I just wanted to mention this in case you are researching Barbara and are hitting brick walls. If that happens, try looking for Müth or Mueth.
Best regards,
Karen
Thanks Karen :) yeah there's still nothing new turned up so far, maybe not that much German based stuff listed on Ancestry etc
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Do you have the birth certificate for William to check the address? His birth was registered sept qtr 1861 Cardiff vol 11a pg 250. They could be at the same address for the census.
I was able to get his birth certificate, born August 1861 and address listed as 'Back of Bute Road'. Perhaps it wasn't an 'official' address so maybe that's why they're not on the census, or they were elsewhere but not properly homed? John the father was a cooper so maybe it was his cooperage in which they were living. ???
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Just wondering about this burial - transcription is Ancestry's but the image looks like it could be Lewis
Barbara Lewin
Age: 37
Burial 2 Mar 1867, Stapleton, Holy Trinity, Bristol
Abode is General Hospital, Bristol
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Just wondering about this burial - transcription is Ancestry's but the image looks like it could be Lewis
Barbara Lewin
Age: 37
Burial 2 Mar 1867, Stapleton, Holy Trinity, Bristol
Abode is General Hospital, Bristol
I've seen that and the name and age fit, but I've also seen it in some trees with an indication that there was someone with a Lewis surname listed as her father, that could be a mistake though?