Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.
John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.
There is also a possible death for this John on SP:
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling
Monica
John Murray Jnr and wife Elizabeth Laidlaw married in Falkirk, Stirlingshire on the date you have.
His parents details show as father being John Murray, seaman Merchant Navy. Deceased. Mother Annie Melville Campbell housekeeper, afterwards married to John William Buchanan Wilson, labourer (I think that is the name, writing pretty poor on this image). Fits with Annie's details here www.findagrave.com/memorial/204884492/annie-melville-wilson
So, at least two children born to John Snr and Annie Campbell?
Monica
Added: Some additional details here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778227.0 Did you manage to find anything on the two boys' time at Whinwell Home?
Hello Monica,
Thank you so much for your help. It took me a long time this morning to finally find where I was going to reply to you. Now, here I am. Yes, all the information you gave me is all correct. I also found John Murray jr.'s gravestone on find a grave. I was a bit surprised to hear that John Murray
Sr. and Annie Melville Campbell may have had more than two children. I was only aware of my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell b) 1921 and John Murray jr. b) 1925.
I have not written to get more information on the Whinwell Home for children but I have read the post for the children or their family who have posted on rootschat which is very interesting.
Also I was so sure that John Murray's b) 1898 parents were Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell. I am so glad that you are leading to in the right direction. All I can do at my end if to let you know that the relatives of John Murray Sr. have been very tight lip on providing information about him. It makes me want to know even more about him and his life.
John Murray Jr and his wife Elizabeth (Brown) Laidlaw had two children who are still living, a son and a daughter. I surmised that the son was named after his grandfather on the Murray line and that led me to choose Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell as the parent of John Murray Sr. Was I wrong!!!
I have a new name to test with you until we get to find the correct John McComb Murray Sr. b) 1900 Slamannan, Stirlingshire, Scotland d) 29 June 1950 in Somerset, England. His parents were Thomas Murray b) Oct 26, 1867 Greengairs, Lanarkshire, Scotland and d) 1925 Slamannan. He married Isabella Dick McCombe b) Dec 11, 1870 New Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scotland They were married 21 June 1889 Slamannan. I now believe that again I have the wrong John Murray. Can you confirm, please? Thank you in advance.
I have a new name to test with you until we get to find the correct John McComb Murray Sr. b) 1900 Slamannan, Stirlingshire, Scotland d) 29 June 1950 in Somerset, England. His parents were Thomas Murray b) Oct 26, 1867 Greengairs, Lanarkshire, Scotland and d) 1925 Slamannan. He married Isabella Dick McCombe b) Dec 11, 1870 New Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scotland They were married 21 June 1889 Slamannan. I now believe that again I have the wrong John Murray. Can you confirm, please? Thank you in advance.
I have a new name to test with you until we get to find the correct John McComb Murray Sr. b) 1900 Slamannan, Stirlingshire, Scotland d) 29 June 1950 in Somerset, England. His parents were Thomas Murray b) Oct 26, 1867 Greengairs, Lanarkshire, Scotland and d) 1925 Slamannan. He married Isabella Dick McCombe b) Dec 11, 1870 New Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scotland They were married 21 June 1889 Slamannan. I now believe that again I have the wrong John Murray. Can you confirm, please? Thank you in advance.
This John McComb Murray was a coal miner, according to his marriage record to Euphemia Hamilton Rae in 1929 in Slamannan - so it seems unlikely he's your man either.
Ruth
In addition to ruthhelen's info, remember that John Murray Jnr stated his father was deceased when he married Elizabeth Laidlaw in 1946. This is one of the reasons I asked about Robert's marriage registration in 1944 in England to see whether his father was also recorded as deceased then.
Monica
What did Robert state about his father on his marriage reg. if you have seen the registration. Just looking to see whether John Snr showed as deceased or not on this and a matching occupation of seaman, Merchant Navy.
Monica
/quote]
Hello Monica, Robert and his wife Catherine eloped to Flyde, Lancashire, England. There weren't any family members on either side as witnesses.
In addition to ruthhelen's info, remember that John Murray Jnr stated his father was deceased when he married Elizabeth Laidlaw in 1946. This is one of the reasons I asked about Robert's marriage registration in 1944 in England to see whether his father was also recorded as deceased then.
Monica
I have a new name to test with you until we get to find the correct John McComb Murray Sr. b) 1900 Slamannan, Stirlingshire, Scotland d) 29 June 1950 in Somerset, England. His parents were Thomas Murray b) Oct 26, 1867 Greengairs, Lanarkshire, Scotland and d) 1925 Slamannan. He married Isabella Dick McCombe b) Dec 11, 1870 New Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scotland They were married 21 June 1889 Slamannan. I now believe that again I have the wrong John Murray. Can you confirm, please? Thank you in advance.
This John McComb Murray was a coal miner, according to his marriage record to Euphemia Hamilton Rae in 1929 in Slamannan - so it seems unlikely he's your man either.
Ruth
...He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930. Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for?
Hi Murielle
I understood there were no family witness as you mentioned they had eloped. My question was what details Robert gave to the Registrar about his father, if any. With illegitimate births, sometimes this box is left blank on the certificate.
Monica
Do you have your father in law's 1944 marriage reg to Catherine in England? If yes, what did he say about his father on this?Extract of an entry in a Register of Births for John Murray b)17 July 1925 at 66 Cowane Street, Stirling Entry #316. Column 5: (Signed) Annie M. Campbell, Mother, (Signed) John Murray, Father. Column 6: 1925 August 1st at Stirling (Signed) Robertha Cumming Asst. Registrar
With the relative you have made contact with connected to brother John, have they John's 1925 birth cert to see what it shows?
Monica
A relative of my husband's Wilson connection gave me a name to check out. There was a John Murray living at 46 Cowane Street, a tenant listed as a Labourer. This would be a short distance from 66 Cowane Street which was a boarding house at that time. He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930. Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for? Thank you anyone for the help.
Can someone on Rootschat for Scotland confirm if indeed John Murray is the biological father of my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell. :)It's highly unlikely unfortunately, anyone could confirm the above unless via DNA matches with your husband.
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.There appears to be too much speculation on who the parents of John Murray Snr. were, considering he left the columns blank regarding his father.
Prior to Robert's death, he did go to Scotland but he preferred that his biological father's name was not included in the birth certificate. It was dated 16th of April 1953.
Given at the General Registry Office, New Register House, Edinburgh, under the Seal of the said Office, this 16th day of April 1953.
...He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930. Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for?
The release of the Scottish 1921 census later this year (via www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk ) could help you in this area likely.
Monica
From one of your previous threads over 5 yrs ago, did you follow it up, what was the outcome?
Death Record
MURRAY JOHN 29
1925
041/MR 33
MARINE RETURN
Annie
Robert Murray Campbell did identify in Column 2 John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service). That suggests that he was still living? But in Column 8 he chose not to include his father (Rank or Profession) back in 1944. But in 1953 Robert Murray Campbell went to Scotland and he ordered plain simple "The Certificate of Birth (Registration, Births, Deaths and Marriages Scotland) Acts, 1854 to 1938. Certificate of Birth that shows his "Name and Surname of Child. Sex, Date of Birth, and Place of Birth. Given at the General Registry Office , under the Seal of the said Office, this 16th day of April 1952.Do you have your father in law's 1944 marriage reg to Catherine in England? If yes, what did he say about his father on this?Extract of an entry in a Register of Births for John Murray b)17 July 1925 at 66 Cowane Street, Stirling Entry #316. Column 5: (Signed) Annie M. Campbell, Mother, (Signed) John Murray, Father. Column 6: 1925 August 1st at Stirling (Signed) Robertha Cumming Asst. Registrar
With the relative you have made contact with connected to brother John, have they John's 1925 birth cert to see what it shows?
Monica
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
In addition to ruthhelen's info, remember that John Murray Jnr stated his father was deceased when he married Elizabeth Laidlaw in 1946. This is one of the reasons I asked about Robert's marriage registration in 1944 in England to see whether his father was also recorded as deceased then.
Monica
Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.
John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.
There is also a possible death for this John on SP:
Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand. Do you have this information?
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling
Monica
From one of your previous threads over 5 yrs ago, did you follow it up, what was the outcome?
Death Record
MURRAY JOHN 29
1925
041/MR 33
MARINE RETURN
Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.
John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses. I do not have information on John Campbell Murray as having died in 1980.
There is also a possible death for this John on SP:
Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand. Do you have this information?
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling
Monica
/quote]
If he died in 1980 like I have on my records. Would the Ref 473/662 have been from Auckland, New Zealand instead of Stirling. Can you explain? Thank you Monica!!!
Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.
John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.
You are right, it does appear that this John Campbell Murray is not the the right John Murray for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.
There is also a possible death for this John on SP:
Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand. Do you have this information?
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling
Monica
A relative of my husband's Wilson connection gave me a name to check out. There was a John Murray living at 46 Cowane Street, a tenant listed as a Labourer. This would be a short distance from 66 Cowane Street which was a boarding house at that time. He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930. Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for? Thank you anyone for the help.
This John was still there in 1930. Indeed, he died at that address in 1934 at the age of 72. His occupation is showing as Burgh Labourer, married to a Mary Stack (1897 Stirling).
No children showing with them in 1901 as I think this may be their entry:
John Murray 38 Head carter b. Stirling
Mary Murray 36 Wife b. Stirling
John Coyne 24 Boarder b. Ireland
Address:118 Baker St, Stirling
Monica
From one of your previous threads over 5 yrs ago, did you follow it up, what was the outcome?
Death Record
MURRAY JOHN 29
1925
041/MR 33
MARINE RETURN
This John Murray was a fireman aboard the Field Marshal Robertson, which went missing (presumed sunk) on 7th Feb 1925. He was from Lochgelly, Fife.
ADDED: he was born on 19 Dec 1894, Lochgelly - the son of Adam Murray, coal miner, and Janet Black (m. 1893, Kinglassie, Fife).
HI Ruth, The John Murray that died on 7th Feb. 1925 did not seem to fit the criteria for our John Murray at the time 5 years ago. We forgot Annie Campbell was probably pregnant for her son John Murray Jr. who was born on 17 July 1925. John Murray Sr. being a seaman in the Merchant Service would not have been a coal miner business???
Ruth
Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.
John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.
You are right, it does appear that this John Campbell Murray is not the the right John Murray for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.
There is also a possible death for this John on SP:
Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand. Do you have this information?
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling
Monica
A relative of my husband's Wilson connection gave me a name to check out. There was a John Murray living at 46 Cowane Street, a tenant listed as a Labourer. This would be a short distance from 66 Cowane Street which was a boarding house at that time. He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930. Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for? Thank you anyone for the help.
This John was still there in 1930. Indeed, he died at that address in 1934 at the age of 72. His occupation is showing as Burgh Labourer, married to a Mary Stack (1897 Stirling).
No children showing with them in 1901 as I think this may be their entry:
John Murray 38 Head carter b. Stirling
Mary Murray 36 Wife b. Stirling
John Coyne 24 Boarder b. Ireland
Address:118 Baker St, Stirling
Monica
New thread...https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862271.0;topicseenSo sorry, Annie. That was a mistake. I apologize.
Would it not have been an idea to update this thread with the new info. rather than start a new thread as it keeps everything together & all info. is searchable on the one thread?
Annie
Can someone on Rootschat for Scotland confirm if indeed John Murray is the biological father of my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell. :)It's highly unlikely unfortunately, anyone could confirm the above unless via DNA matches with your husband.
Has your husband done a DNA test & have the relations of John Murray Jnr. done DNA?
The results of matching will help to determine whether John Murray Snr. was the father of Robert Murray Campbell.The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.There appears to be too much speculation on who the parents of John Murray Snr. were, considering he left the columns blank regarding his father.
Might this indicate he was also illegitimate?
Annie
I do have another possibility. According to a family member on the Wilson (John William Buchan Wilson who married Annie Melville Campbell on Oct 31, 1931) lineage, this lady mentioned a John Robert Murray (they called Poppa Jack) b) 1889 Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland. He died in Davenport, North Shore, Auckland, New Zealand on 7 Oct 1958, and was buried in Waitakere, same place as Annie and John Murray Jr. He married Hazel Alice Fergus b) 1892-1967 both dates in Auckland, New Zealand. They married 24 1914. Would he be the fellow that Annie Melville Campbell had the boys with in 1921 and in 1925? This would be a load off my shoulders if indeed he was the right guy. Can't wait to hear from you all. Thank you so much in advance.
HI Ruth, The John Murray that died on 7th Feb. 1925 did not seem to fit the criteria for our John Murray at the time 5 years ago. We forgot Annie Campbell was probably pregnant for her son John Murray Jr. who was born on 17 July 1925. John Murray Sr. being a seaman in the Merchant Service would not have been a coal miner business???
From one of your previous threads over 5 yrs ago, did you follow it up, what was the outcome?
Death Record
MURRAY JOHN 29
1925
041/MR 33
MARINE RETURN
Thank you Ruth for your information. I am going to do a bit of digging on this information.
This John Murray was a fireman aboard the Field Marshal Robertson, which went missing (presumed sunk) on 7th Feb 1925. He was from Lochgelly, Fife.
ADDED: he was born on 19 Dec 1894, Lochgelly - the son of Adam Murray, coal miner, and Janet Black (m. 1893, Kinglassie, Fife).
Ruth
If he died in 1980 like I have on my records. Would the Ref 473/662 have been from Auckland, New Zealand instead of Stirling. Can you explain? Thank you Monica!!!
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.
Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.
Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.
See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/
Monica
Can someone on Rootschat for Scotland confirm if indeed John Murray is the biological father of my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell. :)It's highly unlikely unfortunately, anyone could confirm the above unless via DNA matches with your husband.Has your husband done a DNA test & have the relations of John Murray Jnr. done DNA?
The results of matching will help to determine whether John Murray Snr. was the father of Robert Murray Campbell.
Yes, my husband and I have done a DNA test back in 2017.The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
The marriage on August 12, 1944 was for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell and his wife Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale. His father was definitely John Murray (hence the Murray middle name on Robert's Certificate of Birth. We are totally sure that his mother Annie Melville Campbell. We don't know of any marriage between John Murray Snr. and Annie Melville Campbell. So Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate. Robert told us that he was illegitimate.
If Robert had a different father, he would have had to be a Murray as well..
There appears to be too much speculation on who the parents of John Murray Snr. were, considering he left the columns blank regarding his father.
Might this indicate he was also illegitimate?
Annie
I know for sure that Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate when he was born in 1921. As for John Murray Snr. I do not know that information. No one in the family relatives provided any information as well. So it has made it extra difficult in coming to a conclusion for me. I am so glad that you are here to help.
I do have another possibility. According to a family member on the Wilson (John William Buchan Wilson who married Annie Melville Campbell on Oct 31, 1931) lineage, this lady mentioned a John Robert Murray (they called Poppa Jack) b) 1889 Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland. He died in Davenport, North Shore, Auckland, New Zealand on 7 Oct 1958, and was buried in Waitakere, same place as Annie and John Murray Jr. He married Hazel Alice Fergus b) 1892-1967 both dates in Auckland, New Zealand. They married 24 1914. Would he be the fellow that Annie Melville Campbell had the boys with in 1921 and in 1925? This would be a load off my shoulders if indeed he was the right guy. Can't wait to hear from you all. Thank you so much in advance.
Can someone on Rootschat for Scotland confirm if indeed John Murray is the biological father of my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell. :)It's highly unlikely unfortunately, anyone could confirm the above unless via DNA matches with your husband.Has your husband done a DNA test & have the relations of John Murray Jnr. done DNA?Both John Murray Snr. and John Murray Jr. had died and did not have a DNA test done.
The results of matching will help to determine whether John Murray Snr. was the father of Robert Murray Campbell.
Yes, my husband and I have done a DNA test back in 2017.The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
The marriage on August 12, 1944 was for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell and his wife Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale. His father was definitely John Murray (hence the Murray middle name on Robert's Certificate of Birth. We are totally sure that his mother Annie Melville Campbell. We don't know of any marriage between John Murray Snr. and Annie Melville Campbell. So Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate. Robert told us that he was illegitimate.
If Robert had a different father, he would have had to be a Murray as well..
There appears to be too much speculation on who the parents of John Murray Snr. were, considering he left the columns blank regarding his father.
Might this indicate he was also illegitimate?
Annie
I know for sure that Robert Murray Campbell was illegitimate when he was born in 1921. As for John Murray Snr. I do not know that information. No one in the family relatives provided any information as well. So it has made it extra difficult in coming to a conclusion for me. I am so glad that you are here to help.
...
I do have another possibility. According to a family member on the Wilson (John William Buchan Wilson who married Annie Melville Campbell on Oct 31, 1931) lineage, this lady mentioned a John Robert Murray (they called Poppa Jack) b) 1889 Lerwick, Shetland, Scotland. He died in Davenport, North Shore, Auckland, New Zealand on 7 Oct 1958, and was buried in Waitakere, same place as Annie and John Murray Jr. He married Hazel Alice Fergus b) 1892-1967 both dates in Auckland, New Zealand. They married 24 1914. Would he be the fellow that Annie Melville Campbell had the boys with in 1921 and in 1925? This would be a load off my shoulders if indeed he was the right guy. Can't wait to hear from you all. Thank you so much in advance.
Yes, my husband and I have done a DNA test back in 2017. Both John Murray Snr. and John Murray Jr. had died and did not have a DNA test done.
My husband's father was born in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland on Dec. 21, 1921. His records are going to be available. Since we live in Canada and the cost is quite a lot of money, I'm choosing to wait on this one.
Yes, my husband and I have done a DNA test back in 2017. Both John Murray Snr. and John Murray Jr. had died and did not have a DNA test done.
I was wondering if any descendants of Robert's brother John Jnr. had done a DNA test to compare the likelihood of both having the same father i.e. John Murray Snr?
We do not have any contact with the son of John Jnr. He lives in Australia. He has a daughter but she has stage 3 or 4 Alzheimer's and we don't feel comfortable in asking for her to do a DNA test. There are no other living relatives for John Murray Jnr.
Annie
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.
Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.
Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.
See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/
Monica
I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).
Ruth
My husband's father was born in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland on Dec. 21, 1921. His records are going to be available. Since we live in Canada and the cost is quite a lot of money, I'm choosing to wait on this one.
The full fee is still very cheap compared with other countries.
However, the index suggests no father is named on his BC otherwise he'd have been registered under both surnames which it appears he isn't.
Annie
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.
Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.
Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.
See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/
Monica
I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).
RuthMy husband's father was born in Stirling, Stirlingshire, Scotland on Dec. 21, 1921. His records are going to be available. Since we live in Canada and the cost is quite a lot of money, I'm choosing to wait on this one.
The full fee is still very cheap compared with other countries.
However, the index suggests no father is named on his BC otherwise he'd have been registered under both surnames which it appears he isn't.
Annie
I was checking out Ancestry and came across John George Murray re UK and Ireland, Find a Grave Index, Death, Burial, Cemetery and obituaries. He was born in Dundee city, Scotland and died at sea on 8 Sept 1944.
[/color]
Would anyone be able to confirm if this gentleman is our John Murray Sr.?
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. On the face of it, this is the marriage of the parents of Robert Campbell Murray and John Murray, but that can't be the case because as far as we know Annie Melville Campbell was by then Mrs John William Buchan Wilson.
I have one person to verify before I go look up the Marine Return. This person was about the age of John Murray. I am in the process of gathering information on this new person. So I should have more details to share later today. This John Murray was known to Mr. John William Buchan Wilson the wife of Annie Murray Campbell.Can you clarify this please? How do you know that 'this person', whoever he was, was known to John William Buchan Wilson?
John Murray was born 7 July 1898 in Saint Ninians, Stirlingshire, Scotland and died in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand according to a relative .... To our knowledge John Murray was an engineer. He was a seaman in the UK merchant service and he may have died at sea.He can't have died at Waitakere and at sea.
The more I read this thread and all the other threads about Robert Campbell Murray the more muddled and confused I get.Sorry we have to disregard this John Murray who died in 1980. Should we delete the post that no longer fit who we are looking for?
You seem to be picking John Murrays at random and trying to make them fit.
I believe that you wish to ascertain the identity of the father of Robert Murray Campbell, illegitimate son of Annie Melville Campbell, who was born on 21 December 1921 in Stirling?
Robert had an illegitimate (half-?)brother, John Murray, born 17 July 1925 in Stirling to Annie Melville Campbell. On this occasion John Murray signed as the child's father. The father of an illegitimate child can only be named on the birth certificate if the father accompanies the mother to the registrar's when she goes to register the birth, and signs the register at the same time as she does. The birth is then indexed under both surnames. Therefore there is no doubt that John Murray acknowledged himself to be the father of John born 1925.
In 1931 Annie Melville Campbell marries John William Buchanan Wilson. He dies in Larbert in 1949, aged 53.QuoteThe Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. On the face of it, this is the marriage of the parents of Robert Campbell Murray and John Murray, but that can't be the case because as far as we know Annie Melville Campbell was by then Mrs John William Buchan Wilson.
According to FreeBMD there is no record of the marriage of either a John Murray, or an Annie Melville Campbell in Fylde in 1944. However Robert M Campbell married Catherine I Lonsdale in Fylde in 1944.
So the above transcription of the marriage certificate is incorrect and therefore irrelevant.
If Robert did not name John Murray as his father when he got married, in spite of the fact that John Murray was the father of Robert's (half-?) brother John, born 1925, this must call into question why not. Did Robert really not know the name of John born 1925's father, when John born 1925 did know who his father was? Or did he know that he was not the full brother of John born 1925? In which case his father was not John Murray at all, which would be why he didn't name him on his marriage certificate.
The correct information is Robert Murray Campbell and Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale married on Aug 12, 1944. They were my father-in-law and mother-in-law so I know this to be correct. Annie Melville Campbell did have the two sons with John Murray Snr. (Robert Murray Campbell b) Dec 24, 1921 and John Murray Jnr. (b. July 17, 1925) both were born at 66 Cowane Street, Stirling, Scotland. The two boys knew each other when they were young. They were in an orphanage we believe to be Whinmwell home for children, Bridge Street, Stirling, Scotland.QuoteI have one person to verify before I go look up the Marine Return. This person was about the age of John Murray. I am in the process of gathering information on this new person. So I should have more details to share later today. This John Murray was known to Mr. John William Buchan Wilson the wife of Annie Murray Campbell.Can you clarify this please? How do you know that 'this person', whoever he was, was known to John William Buchan Wilson? No, we don't know who if John William Buchan Wilson knew John Murray Snr. but he certainly knew John Murray Jr. and Robert Murray Campbell since the boys stayed at the home of Annie Melville Campbell, their mother and John William Buchan Wilson after they married Oct 31, 1931.
(I assume you mean 'the husband of Annie Melville Campbell' rather that 'the wife of Annie Murray Campbell')QuoteJohn Murray was born 7 July 1898 in Saint Ninians, Stirlingshire, Scotland and died in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand according to a relative .... To our knowledge John Murray was an engineer. He was a seaman in the UK merchant service and he may have died at sea.He can't have died at Waitakere and at sea.
Why does the relative think he is the John Murray who died at Waitakere, and where does the information come from that says he was a seaman and may have died at sea?
According to the official New Zealand deaths index none of the seven John Murrays who died in New Zealand in 1980 was born in 1898, let alone on 7 July 1898; and none has the middle name Campbell. There is one death of a John Campbell Murray in New Zealand, born 3 January 1914, died 1972. So it looks as if (yet again) Ancestry is providing disinformation.
The more I read this thread and all the other threads about Robert Campbell Murray the more muddled and confused I get.
You seem to be picking John Murrays at random and trying to make them fit.
If Robert did not name John Murray as his father when he got married, in spite of the fact that John Murray was the father of Robert's (half-?) brother John, born 1925, this must call into question why not. Did Robert really not know the name of John born 1925's father, when John born 1925 did know who his father was? Or did he know that he was not the full brother of John born 1925? In which case his father was not John Murray at all, which would be why he didn't name him on his marriage certificate.
What do you mean "OP"? I live in Canada and I am not familiar.The more I read this thread and all the other threads about Robert Campbell Murray the more muddled and confused I get.
You seem to be picking John Murrays at random and trying to make them fit.
I agree on that but the problem is, the OP has the same access to any records as we have i.e. why not look at the records to prove/disprove any theories ???
Annie
What do you mean "OP"?
why not look at the records to prove/disprove any theories ???Well ... If my theory is correct, that is that John Murray was not the father of Robert Campbell Murray, the records won't either prove or disprove it :)
Sorry we have to disregard this John Murray who died in 1980. Should we delete the post that no longer fit who we are looking for?No, because we need to keep a record of what has already been proposed and discarded.
You're quite right that only DNA can ever solve this one - and if JM was not the father of RCM, it could only prove that we are looking for the wrong person, not tell us who the right person was.
Yes, possibly.You're quite right that only DNA can ever solve this one - and if JM was not the father of RCM, it would only prove that we are looking for the wrong person, not tell us who the right person was.
But...DNA could lead to the potential father through matching DNA links!
Annie
Is this the couple you refer to?
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
birth registered 1898 St Ninians
ANNIE MELVILLE CAMPBELL
birth registered 1898 Falkirk
This John Campbell Murray was determined not to be the right person.
Colin
Murielle, not sure you have the right John Murray for your Robert.
John Campbell Murray, son of Hugh Murray and Isabella Campbell, married on 12 Sept 1924 in Larbert, Stirlingshire to an Amelia Crawford. His occupation is showing as that of a jobbing gardener. Address is the family home, Craigend Farm. His brother George Strathie Murray was one of the witnesses.
You are right, it does appear that this John Campbell Murray is not the the right John Murray for my father-in-law Robert Murray Campbell.
There is also a possible death for this John on SP:
Dated May 20, 2022 - John Campbell Murray died in 1980 on Ancestry in Waitakere, Auckland, New Zealand. Do you have this information?
JOHN CAMPBELL MURRAY
Age 82
Mother's maiden name CAMPBELL
1980
Ref 473/ 662
Stirling
Determined not to be the right John Murray.
MonicaDetermined not to be the right John Murray.
A relative of my husband's Wilson connection gave me a name to check out. There was a John Murray living at 46 Cowane Street, a tenant listed as a Labourer. This would be a short distance from 66 Cowane Street which was a boarding house at that time. He was there in 1921, 1924 and 1925, but not in 1930. Could he possibly be the John Murray we are looking for? Thank you anyone for the help.
This John was still there in 1930. Indeed, he died at that address in 1934 at the age of 72. His occupation is showing as Burgh Labourer, married to a Mary Stack (1897 Stirling).
No children showing with them in 1901 as I think this may be their entry:
John Murray 38 Head carter b. Stirling
Mary Murray 36 Wife b. Stirling
John Coyne 24 Boarder b. Ireland
Address:118 Baker St, Stirling
Monica
Murielle,
Which company did your husband test with?
There are numerous sites which accept DNA results from other sites free, have you uploaded his results to any of those sites?
Have any of your children taken a DNA test?
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This should help in filtering the paternal side.
What is your husband's 5 highest matches cMs (outwith known family) & have you checked out dates / places / surnames etc. as possibilities with those & shared matches?
I've been able to solve a few dilemmas via shared matches, via dates, surnames, places etc.
It's not the easiest thing in research but it certainly helps to provide answers where there are questions, however, you need to do the leg-work, buy certs. etc. to confirm things & they're not free!
Annie
I believe that I verified that it was Robert Murray Campbell that was married to Catherine (Irene) Lonsdale.Thank you Monica. :)
The Certified Copy of their Entry of Marriage on 12 August 1944; Registration District FYLDE in the County of Lancaster. Column 2: John Murray Seaman (Merchant Service) , Annie Melville Campbell Housekeeper. Column 7 (Father's Name and Surname) was blank. Column 8 (Rank or Profession of Father) was also blank. Signed by Registrar of Marriages Robert J. Waring.
I think info and columns are being confused unfortunately.
Column 2 is the name of the groom/ bride
Column 7 & 8 is the name of the father of groom/ bride and then his occupation.
Mother's name was not included on marriage registrations.
See an example here www.family-tree.co.uk/getting-started/getting-started/what-information-can-be-found-on-a-marriage-certificate/
MonicaMurielle,
Which company did your husband test with? Ancestry DNA
There are numerous sites which accept DNA results from other sites free, have you uploaded his results to any of those sites? I have uploaded our Ancestry DNA raw data with My Heritage, and Gedmatch.com
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This should help in filtering the paternal side.
What is your husband's 5 highest matches cMs (outwith known family) & have you checked out dates / places / surnames etc. as possibilities with those & shared matches? My husband's scottish closest matches are 1. Dianne Veach (known to us). She has done her Ancestry DNA. Results 196 cm - 4 segments on the Campbell line. She is a 3rd cousin to my husband John Murray Campbell. She does not know John Murray Snr. 2. Maurice Campbell Results 120 cm 2% Shared DNA. He is 2nd-3rd cousin on the Campbell line. 3. Gord McMurran 98 cm in 4 segments. According to Ancestry he is 2nd cousin once removed to my husband on the Campbell line. Gord's mother was a Campbell. 4. Sandy Goodsite58 Results 47 cm 4th-6th cousin less than 1% shared DNA with my husband. Any more would be all distant cousins.
I've been able to solve a few dilemmas via shared matches, via dates, surnames, places etc.
It's not the easiest thing in research but it certainly helps to provide answers where there are questions, however, you need to do the leg-work, buy certs. etc. to confirm things & they're not free! I agree but I want to make sure that the certificate I purchase are indeed related to us.
Annie
I think this has actually conflated John Murray's (b. 1925) birth registration with Robert Murray Campbell's (b. 1921) marriage. The 'column 2' information, I think, comes from the birth, while the rest is the marriage. Murielle has a copy of Robert Murray Campbell's marriage record on her Ancestry tree, which clearly shows that the name of the father is blank (English records being not interested in who the mother was...).
Ruth
What you now need to do is, compare all your 'known' matches with both yours & their shared' matches & whittle them down.Thank you so much Annie :) I wrote down the two sites and plan to start using them very soon. Wish me Luck!!!
This can be done by using these (both are very helpful)...
https://www.danaleeds.com/the-leeds-method/
&
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4
which should help in identifying whether your F-i-L was definitely descended from the Murray line or not & as more people test, it may lead you to the 'biological' father who may/may not be a Murray.
Annie
Good luck Murielle as it seems the only way to be in any way sure or not.I actually did not think about having our children do the test. I knew that it would be important for my husband and I. This is a great suggestion from Annie and your team. Thank you for the suggestion.
It would be best you have any of your children do tests which makes it easier too.
Annie