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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: FindinFamily on Monday 09 May 22 16:45 BST (UK)
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Wondering what type of info I can get from a death certificate labeled Service Returns. The person I am researching is named John Hay, and I have a date range of death, but not a positive date. I am seeing quite a few death certificates labeled Service Returns, but I don't want to spend credits to view if I will not receive any concrete info. These don't seem to list the mother's maiden name to narrow down the search. Will there be birth date /place info listed in this document?
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It has been a while since I looked at one but if I remember rightly it is basically just a list of names with their rank and date of death. Not enough information for you to be absolutely certain that it is the person you are looking for. I may be wrong and I am certain someone will say if I am. ;D
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Slightly more information (but not much ::) )
This is what you get
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Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, not really enough to be able to narrow my search.
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Have you tried the CWGC website - they sometimes give more information regarding parents or next of kin
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Do you know where in Scotland he lived ? as you might be able to trace him on census records ..Have you also looked for a will for John
Rosie
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Here is all the info that I have:
Born: 1889 Ecclesmachan, West Lothian - Parents James & Helen (Eaton) Hay. In 1891 census - aged 2 lived at Threemiletown, West Lothian, 1901 census aged 12, lived at Shirvadyke, Kirkintilloch. I know these are correct. In 1910, parents and some younger siblings emigrated to Australia, as far as I know, John did not go with them at the time or later. Father James died in Australia in 1935 and listed on Death Cert as having 2 sons predecease him. His son James died in 1905 in Scotland, and I have confirmation that all other sons were all alive after 1935, with the exception of John. I have no further info on John Eaton Hay, but based on his age, I am wondering if he may have been in WW1 and died then, which is why I was questioning the Service Remains info. It is only a guess. If anyone can help with any additional info I would be appreciative.
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As already suggested, if he died during the first world war he should be on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission web site https://www.cwgc.org/ - it has a dozen records of John Hays, none with a middle name, but one of them could be yours.
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Have you searched for a marriage 1901 - 1910 (a good reason not to emigrate with the others) & have you checked the 1911 census for a possible match?
Deaths in the 1900s prior to 1974 seldom give mms.
Annie
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Have you considered this marriage in Kirkintilloch where John was last sighted on the 1901 census...
Marriage...
HAY JOHN & CLOGGIE MARGARET 1920 - 498/ 4 Kirkintilloch (Dunbarton)
Annie
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I was able to pinpoint a relation whose death was notified in a Service Return, by finding his dependants in the UK Army Register of Soldiers' Effects, on Ancestry.
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He is certainly not an easy person to find ???
Rosie
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Who are the parents to baby Samuel Hay who died in 1887 (born in 86), Abercorn, West Lothian?
Mothers maiden name is Eaton on death cert.
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The 1920 marriage is not him, the mother on that one is a Jane Downes.
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Who are the parents to baby Samuel Hay who died in 1887 (born in 86), Abercorn, West Lothian?
Mothers maiden name is Eaton on death cert.
Maybe another son born to James and Helen called after Helen's father Samuel Eaton..I noticed on the 1891 census there is a Grant A Hay but not there on the 1901 census ..
Rosie
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Rosie - Samuel Hay, was the son of James & Helen (Eaton) Hay, so he would have been brother of John Hay. As to the marriage records, I have not found anything there. I was fairly sure the marriage listed in Kirkintilloch was not him, as I know that the family lived there in 1901 census, however, they had relocated to Govan and were living on Drive Rd in 1905. At that point, John would have been 16 and possibly still living with his parents. As you say, he is a difficult relative to trace.
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Father James died in Australia in 1935 and listed on Death Cert as having 2 sons predecease him. His son James died in 1905 in Scotland, and I have confirmation that all other sons were all alive after 1935, with the exception of John.
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So surely, the two dead sons before 1935 were Samuel and James. ?
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Do you have the exact date of birth for John Hay ?
Birth on Scotland's People as John Aiton Hay 1889 Ecclesmachen
Rosie
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Neale - Good point as I had totally forgotten about the baby who died as he was not listed on any census.
Father James died in Australia in 1935 and listed on Death Cert as having 2 sons predecease him. His son James died in 1905 in Scotland, and I have confirmation that all other sons were all alive after 1935, with the exception of John.
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So surely, the two dead sons before 1935 were Samuel and James. ?
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Annie
I have not been able to find any possible marriage with almost nothing to go on and such a popular name. I think my next move would be to search 1911 census as I know that the family had left Scotland by then. He had 3 elder sisters who also stayed in Scotland, and were married by this time. 2 were living in Govan and 1 in Kilsyth. Agnes Russell (Hay), Helen Donaldson (Hay), and Mary Jo Anderson (Hay). If he was not living on his own, possibly he lived with one of the sisters.
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It is possible that he did the unthinkable and moved to England.
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Deaths in the 1900s prior to 1974 seldom give mms
ScotlandsPeople has been quietly infilling the earlier death records with mother's maiden name, starting from the advent of statutory registration in 1855. Most deaths between 1855 and the late 1920's can now be searched with both surname and mother's maiden name, where the mother's maiden name was known. The gap is, of course, probably the precise range the OP is looking for a death in if John Hay did indeed die in Scotland. Wait for another year or so, and it's highly likely you'll be able to resolve the issue of whether he died in Scotland and if so when.
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I know you say that you do not think he went to Australia but you should consider the possibility he did. If he followed his father before 1914 he may have come back almost straight away as part of the Australian Army possibly to Gallipoli. Their records unlike ours are intact and I believe it possible to search them online although I don't know how. It is worth a try to cover all bases.
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It is possible that he did the unthinkable and moved to England.
I have checked a few census records England and abroad seeing a few John Hay's born Scotland it would help if we had his date of birth ..Like you also thought he might have went to Australia
Rosie
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I know you say that you do not think he went to Australia but you should consider the possibility he did. If he followed his father before 1914 he may have come back almost straight away as part of the Australian Army possibly to Gallipoli. Their records unlike ours are intact and I believe it possible to search them online although I don't know how. It is worth a try to cover all bases.
There is a surviving Australian WW1 service record for a John Hay, born in Edinburgh, Scotland, aged 25 years and 10 months on attesting in September 1914, so born 1888/89. Next of kin is given as brother Alexander, and then a Miss M A Hay, who is his sister.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4769148 (https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4769148)
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It is possible that he did the unthinkable and moved to England.
I have checked a few census records England and abroad seeing a few John Hay's born Scotland it would help if we had his date of birth ..Like you also thought he might have went to Australia
Rosie
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Yes - England could be a possibility, as could Canada because there were relatives there also.
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I know you say that you do not think he went to Australia but you should consider the possibility he did. If he followed his father before 1914 he may have come back almost straight away as part of the Australian Army possibly to Gallipoli. Their records unlike ours are intact and I believe it possible to search them online although I don't know how. It is worth a try to cover all bases.
There is a surviving Australian WW1 service record for a John Hay, born in Edinburgh, Scotland, aged 25 years and 10 months on attesting in September 1914, so born 1888/89. Next of kin is given as brother Alexander, and then a Miss M A Hay, who is his sister.
I have seen this record, but it is not him. No brother Alexander.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4769148 (https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4769148)
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He had 3 elder sisters who also stayed in Scotland, and were married by this time. 2 were living in Govan and 1 in Kilsyth. Agnes Russell (Hay), Helen Donaldson (Hay), and Mary Jo Anderson (Hay).
Have you checked this death...
HAY JOHN 61 - 1951 - 644/17 910 Govan
Annie
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He had 3 elder sisters who also stayed in Scotland, and were married by this time. 2 were living in Govan and 1 in Kilsyth. Agnes Russell (Hay), Helen Donaldson (Hay), and Mary Jo Anderson (Hay).
Have you checked this death...
HAY JOHN 61 - 1951 - 644/17 910 Govan
Annie
Unfortunately, this is not him :(
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If you have not done it already I would look to see who the witnesses at the marriages of his sisters were, and a slightly longer shot see who registered the deaths of them and their spouses in case it was John.
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If you have not done it already I would look to see who the witnesses at the marriages of his sisters were, and a slightly longer shot see who registered the deaths of them and their spouses in case it was John.
I have this info for one of the sisters (Agnes Russell) who was my gr. grandmother. John was not a witness to her marriage, or an informant on either her death or her husbands. Thanks for the suggestion