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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: Penberthy on Sunday 01 May 22 02:29 BST (UK)
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Looking for Census 1871/1881 for Henry William McKenzie born 1869 in Inverness but no BC. Parents William and Ann nee Gordon of Cromdale, Intervallan and Advie. Found one in Aberdeenshire mother Mary but he definitely stated Inverness on army papers. First son was Gordon and he has reference endorsed by Gen Major Charles Gordon who knew his father probably at Crimean War as many paintings of this war in his home in Perth Western Australia. He would have been either 2 in census 1871 or 12 in 1881 census. My last chance at finding my grandfather who was a beautiful person who was the 1st pipe major in WA and played the bagpipes and piano and taught highland dancing at the Caledonian society in Fremantle port of Perth in WA. He first went to Shanghai and Hong Kong. Apparently his mother died young and he didn’t get along with his father a farmer when he left at age 18. Diane Penberthy
D
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https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk is the site for Scottish Records, it is free to search, small fee to view records. Statutory Records began in 1855, however I cannot see a birth registration for Henry William in Scotland, I cannot see a marriage for his parents or any likely census.
Can you add any information which might help?
Colin
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I note this on Ancestry, is this the person from your post?
Henry William McKenzie
Birth Date: 1869
Death Date: 8 Dec 1949
Cemetery: Karrakatta Cemetery and Crematorium
Burial or Cremation Place: Karrakatta, Nedlands City, Western Australia.
Colin
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Thank you so much for helping. What an enigma? He is the one at Karrakatta in 1949. He put mother Ann Gordon dec’d on his MC, and Inverness on his army papers in 1887 where he became a groom.
Because there is a HW born 10/2/1869 in Maryculter Aberdeenshire mother Mary Cockie it must be the one. Also Ann born 1867 and John 1870. We thought he was an only child. We should ask more questions. Obviously my mother Jessie Heather MacKenzie did not. We have been to Inverness but should have been looking at Aberdeenshire.
That is that. I am now too old to look further. He became a policeman here after the army, and a very popular figure. Thanks. Diane
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He became a policeman here after the army, and a very popular figure. Thanks. Diane
The Henry William McKENZIE who married Charlotte PAGE and died in 1949 was a brass polisher and worked for the Midland Railway. He gave his date of birth as 10 May 1869 on those records.
Was he a policeman before that?
Debra :)
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That is the one but McKenzie not Wilson. Yes he left the police force as they didn’t allow married quarters in those days 1898. Thanks anyway.
Diane
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Sorry I fixed that, I was thinking of someone else. ;D
Have you tried to get his records from his time with the police?
Debra :)
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Because there is a HW born 10/2/1869 in Maryculter Aberdeenshire mother Mary Cockie it must be the one.
It's never safe to assume that because someone is the only possible candidate, they must be the right one when other details don't match - in this case the month and county of birth and mother's names are all different, and he has no middle name.
But he can safely be dismissed in any case. According to the deaths index at Scotland's People, Henry MacKenzie, mother's maiden surname Cockie, died in Glasgow in 1928, aged 59.
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I note the birth record but he is not there 1871/1881.
HENRY MCKENZIE 1869 Born Maryculter, Kincardineshire
Colin
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I note the birth record but he is not there 1871/1881.
HENRY MCKENZIE 1869 Born Maryculter, Kincardineshire
He's in the census, spelled McKensie, in Maryculter in 1871, and as McKenzie in 1881 in Glenmuick, Tullich and Glengairn.
He's probably the unmarried stonecutter, aged 22, boarding in Aberdeen in 1891, and the unmarried sculptor at 124 Parson Street, Glasgow in 1901.
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Not the stonecutter or sculptor as he joined army aged 18 at Stirling in 1887.
Probably Maryculter McKensie. Did it give an age in 1871 should have been 2 or 12 in 1881.
Amazing and thanks. From Claremont Western Australia.
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No, the Henry Mackenzie born in Maryculter is absolutely not your Henry William McKenzie.
- he had no middle name
- he was born in February and yours is said to have been born in May
- he was born in Kincardineshire and yours said he was born in Inverness(-shire)
- his mother was Mary Cockie and yours said his mother was Ann Gordon
- his mother was born in Maryculter, not in Cromdale Inverallan and Advie
- he is in the 1891 census in Aberdeen, described as a stonecutter
- he is in the 1901 census in Glasgow, described as a sculptor
- he married Isabella Shirlaw in Glasgow in 1901, described as a bachelor, monumental sculptor, parents William Mackenzie, gardener, and Mary Mackenzie, maiden surname Cockie.
- he died in Glasgow in 1928, and his death certificate says he was a monumental sculptor, aged 59, married to Isabella Shirlaw, and son of William Mackenzie, labourer, and Mary Mackenzie, maiden surname Cockie.
- he did not join the army in 1887
- he did not emigrate to Australia
- he did not marry Charlotte Page
- he did not die in 1949
- he did not die in Australia
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You have done so much work on this and I thank you. I now believe that he did come from the William McKenzie and Ann nee Gordon who married in 1838 in Cromdale, I and Advie. Had 4 siblings much older and that he probably killed his mother in childbirth or something similar. I think his father went to Crimean war as they found a William there but all records destroyed, probably went onto India as getting a salary, came home and Henry maybe a mistake. He joined the 1st Bn Argyle and Sutherland Regiment as a groom as in MC said his father a farmer. So you have done me a favour at least as I now believe that he did come from Inverness as stated and sent to Shanghai. He left for Hong Kong and became a Policeman there. What a life but no fighting luckily for him as I think that his father was quite damaged as he used to hit Henry. Cheers.
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I am wondering if perhaps he was a grandson of William M and Ann Gordon who were married in 1838, rather than a son? It wasn't unusual for an illegitimate grandchild to be brought up by its grandparents, under the impression that they were his parents.
Ann McKenzie or Gordon, mother's maiden surname Collie, died in Cromdale Inverallan and Advie (CIA) in 1897 aged 89. If her age is accurate she was born in 1807/1808, and would have been too old to become the mother of Henry William in 1869.
She's in the census in CIA
1841: aged 33, with husband William, aged 51, and four more McKenzies, two of whom are too old to be hers - so she was probably a second wife.
1851: aged 42, born Knockando, with husband William, aged 60, born Boharm, a son too old to be hers, four children of her own and a grandson.
1861: not found.
1871: aged 62, widow, with grandson Mathew Allan, 4.
1881: aged 72, with grandsons William J, 13, and Alexander B, 11, both born in Staffordshire, England.
1891: aged 82, with daughter Annie McKenzie, aged 50, married.
Don't worry too much about CIA sometimes being listed under Morayshire rather than Inverness-shire. Until the rationalisation of boundaries in about 1890 bits of CIA were in Inverness-shire and bits of it in Morayshire. I've never managed to get my head round which bits were in which county!
John Gordon and Christian Collie had four children baptised in Knockando between 1798 and 1805, then another one in CIA in 1811. So it looks as if Ann's baptism isn't on record but she is probably another of their children.
William John Mackenzie, mother's surname Mackenzie, was born in Walsall and registered in the March quarter of 1868. The birth of Alexander Bruce Mackenzie, mother's surname Mackenzie, was registered in West Bromwich in the December quarter of 1869. In 1871 John McKensie, 30, born Scotland, is in Walsall with wife Annie, 30, born Scotland, and sons William J and Alexander Bruce. Looks as if John and Annie married in Birmingham on 5 September 1867.
In 1841 the sons too old to be Ann's are Alexander, aged 19, and William, 17. There is a baptism of Alexander to William McKinzie and Elspet Gordon on 20 September 1821 in CIA, and a baptism of a son William on 31 January 1824. William M and Elspet G were married in CIA in 1821.
None of which gets us any closer to finding the record of Henry William's birth.
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It is late and I will have to study it all. Yes, maybe a grandson as he says Ann Gordon mother dec’d in 1898 on MC. Brilliant!
I found the marriage of Wm and Ann nee Gordon in 1838 at Cromdale, Intervallan and Advie and children Helen 1839, Ann 1840, John 1842 and Elspet 1844. How I would love to talk to this family!
One other thought is that maybe daughter Ann 1840 had Henry unmarried and illegitimate, as he said that he was an only child. He was very well educated. Maybe not loved by his grandfather if the others all married and he was brought up by grandparents. He joined the army the day after he turned 18.
There is a parallel here as Henrys youngest son Ronald’s wife died very young, and he and his wife Charlotte took on two very young children so that Ron could get on with life although he never remarried. Regards Diane
Interesting re the parents of William and Ann. I will have to look into it all. It has given me a new way of looking at it.
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One other thought is that maybe daughter Ann 1840 had Henry unmarried and illegitimate
Probably not, as she had Alexander Bruce legitimately later in 1869, the same year as Henry says he was born.
Also, he may have lied about his age - claiming to be 18 in 1887 when he was actually a few years younger. It isn't uncommon for a young man to lie about his age in order to join the army.
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It would be so easy to adopt this family, but no mention of him as other grandsons are, so not convinced.
Maybe sent to an orphanage which I now suspect, or child of Helen or Elspet. Have examined many papers from army and age seems to be correct.
I still think somehow Ann Gordon was his grandmother, but I may never know. Thanks.
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More speculation.
Did he change his name when he left home to join the army? If he didn't get on with his father, or his father was difficult or abusive, perhaps he's in the records under a different name.
It would be quite unusual for a child to be sent to an orphanage if there were relatives who could take him in. And if he had been, he would surely show up there in the census?
Also, if he was brought up in an orphanage, he wouldn't have been in his father's household to begin with.
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A real mystery. Henry may have been an illegitimate son of John born 1842 and went to live with mother perhaps. Otherwise it has to be another Ann Gordon, maybe even born in England and moved back to Scotland. It is interesting that in Hong Kong in a reference from G.C. Anderson JP Member of the Committee of the Hong Kong St Andrews Society says “The Bearer Mr Henry McKenzie has been known to me for some years first as a Piper in the 91st Highlanders and a member of Hong Kong Police Force has been strongly been recommended to me by the Late Captain Superintendent Major General Gordon as a respectable man and a worthy Highlander. He has played for the St Andrews Society of Hong Kong at the last Ball and practising giving universal satisfaction. Etc etc. Dated 1893 before he left for Australia.
I have just examined his papers and have found one when he resigned from the Highlanders 9 January 1890 Place Hong Kong and very faded to read. Age 23 yrs 8 months Lt. Corp Henry (no William). 6ft blue eyes Groom. No 2557.
This means that he could have lied about age but older joining the day before his 21st birthday 6 May 1887. Maybe Born 1866.
In MC and other documents all 1869.
I am sure if this is true his family didn’t know, and I am sorry for leading you up the garden path although it probably makes no difference. He may have added the William himself for a second name.
All the best. Diane.
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I have found Henry on a Chelsea Pensioners Service Record Box No 3379 etc with 7 images that I cannot open. Yes, age 21 Birth year 1866 Invernesshire. So 21 years untraceable!!
I am very appreciative of your time and work done. I didn’t subtract and work it out earlier.
Cannot find any Henry’s in 1866 born so still an enigma. Thank you.
My Roberts family came from Cornwall in 1853, (not convicts I am afraid) as did my husbands a very Cornish name. I have gone back to 1600 and find it all fascinating. So from end of England to the other with Wales and Cumbria in between in my history. We are a big mixture down here in Australia.
Diane 😊
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Of course you are right and I wasn’t thinking. I do know the history and I do apologise. I should not have said England. I even went to Culloden once and we were explained the terrible battle there.
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Of course you are right and I wasn’t thinking. I do know the history and I do apologise. I should not have said England. I even went to Culloden once and we were explained the terrible battle there.
Yes, though Culloden wasn't Scots v English.
There were Scots on the Hanoverian side and English on the Jacobite side as well.
Still can't find your Henry William :(
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To Forfarian I am back. I have been searching all the details that you sent in May, and I have overlooked I think an important Census in 1881 that you found of Henry William at Glenmuick, Tillich and Glencairn. I didn’t realise that the McKenzies had an estate there, now long gone. Why I think it is my grandfather there is because when he joined the army in 1887 at Stirling at age 21 I have found, he was employed as a groom for horses, which now makes sense. Why 21 I have no idea unless that was the age required!
The other thing as a long shot is that the Matthew Allan aged 4 in 1871 census at CIA (Allan a family name at Glenmuick) could have been him a grandson, as I am sure he was illegitimate, very much hidden in those days. Was he a son of one of their children, but who? Could even be the son William born 1824 1st marriage, but my guess is Ann born 1840. She still lives with her mother at age 50. But where is the connection to Glenmuick I ask?
I am still searching for father of William born about 1789/90 at Boharm. I think his brother Alexander born 1794 in Boharm graveyard.
There is a William at Glenmuick born to Wm (Merchant) and Barbara 1739 brother of Kenneth 1737. No one has done his history properly except to say he married Isobel Gauldy.
It appears that the McKenzies got into financial trouble at Glenmuick but Guy mentions that the Balmoral neighbours not keen on his birthdate. Wow!
I may be disappointed now if no connection, but I think that HW could have been there for some time.
Diane.
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I have overlooked I think an important Census in 1881 that you found of Henry William at Glenmuick, Tillich and Glencairn.
That census in 1881 in Glenmuick etc is irrelevant, because that's the Henry McKenzie born in Maryculter and you already know he isn't yours.
1881 Census: Glenmuick Stable Yard, Glenmuick Tullich and Glengairn, Aberdeenshire
William MCKENZIE, Head, 48, Gardner Dom, born Dingwall, Ross and Cromarty
Mary MCKENZIE, Wife, 47, Maryculter
William MCKENZIE, Son, 21, Gardner, Maryculter
Henry MCKENZIE, Son, 12, Scholar, Maryculter
John MCKENZIE, Son, 10, Scholar, Maryculter
Alexander MCKENZIE, Son, 8, Scholar, Glenmuick
Mary MCKENZIE, Daughter, 5, Scholar, Glenmuick
George FORBES,G Son, 3, Aberdeen
His father is employed as a domestic gardener, not the owner of the estate. The 1885 valuation roll lists William Mackenzie as inhabitant occupier of a house at Glenmuick. This means that he was in a tied house that went with his job as a gardener.
The owner of the estate was James Thomson Mackenzie but this does not mean that William was necessarily related to James Thomson Mackenzie. In any case it really doesn't matter because it's not your Henry Mackenzie to start with.
I think his brother Alexander born 1794 in Boharm graveyard.
Alexander Mackenzie who is buried in Boharm kirkyard died in 1874. So he is almost certainly the Alexander McKenzie, mother's maiden surname Fowler, who died in Mortlach in 1874 aged 80.
There are two deaths of William M(a)ckenzies with mother's maiden name Fowler: one aged 60 in 1860 in Inverness, and one aged 68 in Urquhart and Logie Wester in 1878. The one in 1860 obviously isn't the father of your Henry, who was born several years later, but the one in 1878 might be. Either could have been his grandfather. You need to look at the death certificates to see if the parents' full names match.
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Is this your family?
What do you see on this marriage certificate?.
Can you please list all the information.
WA BDM marriage
PAGE Charlotte marr. MCKENZIE Henry @ Cottesloe 33/1899
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I looked at his service record. It says that he was plain Henry McKenzie, and that he joined the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders at Stirling in 1887. He said he was 21 and born in the parish of Inverness in or near the town of Inverness in the county of Inverness.
On a later page he gives his next of kin as his sister Jean Ann McKenzie, New Street, Culsalmond, by Huntly (which is in Aberdeenshire).
So unless he is lying you are looking for a birth in 1865 or 1866 in the parish of Inverness.
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She's in the census in CIA
1871: aged 62, widow, with grandson Mathew Allan, 4.
Curiouser and curiouser.
On the FreeBMD transcription (FreeBMD is normally more accurate because it's done by people who have some knowledge of the place they are reanscribing, and it is done twice and any discrepancies are double-checked) the child's name is Allan Mather, not Mathew Allan, and he is a boarder, not a grandson.
Scotland's People index says Allan Mathew.
The IGI lists a birth of Allan Mathew or Cruickshank, parents Allan Mathew and Jane Cruickshank, in CIA on 25 June 1866. SP has a listing of the birth there of Allan Mathew in 1866.
So it looks as if this child is also a red herring.
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Goodbye to Glenmuick and thank you for time spent. Ballater looks like a nice place for the Queen to visit. I was excited to have you find any direct relation to Henry in Jean Ann living in Huntly of all places - very Gordon territory. Very near the castle.
Did Jean born 1805 (Anne’s sister 1808) daughter of John Gordon marry a McKenzie. Maybe an aunt. I cannot find her BC either. William had 3 brothers George 1775, Alex 1779 and James 1784.
I have found that William 1791 had parents Wm 1751 and Marg nee Sutherland and can go back to 4th Earl of Seaforth and beyond. (Family Search). I would now like to claim them.
I have come this far so now want John Gordons parents. Married at Knockando to Christina Collie, and parents of Ann. We have a town near our Perth Western Australia named Collie after one of her relations who surveyed our coast years ago.
Henry and Charlotte had children Gordon Hector, Keith Lindsay, Stuart Henry, Jessie Heather my mother and Ronald. Says William a farmer and mother Ann nee Gordon bother dec’d in 1798 on MC.
I will now get ready to watch the golf at St Andrews. I visited there many years ago. I loved my quick trip to Scotland and thought constantly of Grandad who was so sentimental about Scotland.
I am surprised about him lying about his age, but maybe he was driven to lie, and get away to army life. His Gordon relatives were all in army apparently. I may look into that side of family now.
Thank you again.
Diane nee Roberts. My family came from Cornwall in 1853 and built up an iron works in Bendigo Victoria, Australia.
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I was excited to have you find any direct relation to Henry in Jean Ann living in Huntly of all places - very Gordon territory. Very near the castle.
Actually she was in the parish of Culsalmond, so she wasn't all that near Huntly Castle.
Did Jean born 1805 (Anne’s sister 1808) daughter of John Gordon marry a McKenzie.
There is a death of Jane Gordon or Grant, mother's surname Collie, aged 89, in 1894 in the parish of Abernethy and Kincardine, Inverness-shire. This is the next parish to CIA.
I have found that William 1791 had parents Wm 1751 and Marg nee Sutherland and can go back to 4th Earl of Seaforth and beyond. (Family Search). I would now like to claim them.
If you got that from some online tree or other, do not trust or believe it. Check every step of it for evidence and proof, and until you have such evidence don't 'claim' them.
I have come this far so now want John Gordons parents. Married at Knockando to Christina Collie, and parents of Ann.
This may not be possible. They were married in 1797 and their family were born 1798-1811, so John and Christian/Christina were probably born before 1780. Unfortunately the early records of Knockando were destroyed when the session clerk's house went on fire in 1783. The volume starting in 1767 was saved, but the minister who wrote the New Statistical Account commented that the register was very incomplete because parents were neglecting to have their children's baptisms recorded.
There is a possible candidate for Christian Collie; baptised in Knockando 15 November 1770, parents James Collie and Agnes McRobbie. However there are other candidates in other parishes, and it's always possible that she was one of those whose parents neglected to have her baptism recorded.
There are deaths of William Gordon, 88, in 1899 and Elspet Gordon, aged 85, in 1900, mother's maiden surname Collie, both in Inveravon. The 1881 census lists at Drumgrain, Inveravon William Gordon, 69 and his sister Elspet, 64, both born in Cromdale. Inveravon is on the other bank of the Spey opposite Knockando and CIA.
In 1851 William was already at Drumgrain with wife Margaret Hay and children Christina, John and William.
In 1851 Alexander Gordon, tailor, 48, born Knockando and his sister Elspet, 34, are at Kilmaichlie in Inveravon.
Drum(a)grain is a mile or so south of Balindalloch Castle https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1735 and if you follow the minor road past it for a mile or two you come to Kil(n)maichlie https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ1832
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I have been searching again for a Jean (Jane) Ann McKenzie sister to Henry with a Gordon connection, bit too many to guess. Have also looked at William McKenzie and Ann Gordons born 1830/40s to be parents.
I will always believe there was something hidden about their births. Eg Who married William born 1824 1st marriage? He would have been in 40s. Who did Ann McKenzie born 1840 marry and her other sisters?
I will keep at it as I still believe there is no other family to examine. Somewhere there is an army Gordon who influenced him, after seeing reference from Gordon of Khartoum.
I did find the christening of Christian at Nether Kirdelberg, Inveravon for James and Christina Collie in 1770.
Also a James born 1765 to Alexander in Aberlour - not sure of that one. I really want a Major General. Ha!
Thanks again. I seem to have wasted your weekend.
Diane.👏🙂
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Who did Ann McKenzie born 1840 marry
She married John Mackenzie.
From reply #13 above: William John Mackenzie, mother's surname Mackenzie, was born in Walsall and registered in the March quarter of 1868. The birth of Alexander Bruce Mackenzie, mother's surname Mackenzie, was registered in West Bromwich in the December quarter of 1869. In 1871 John McKensie, 30, born Scotland, is in Walsall with wife Annie, 30, born Scotland, and sons William J and Alexander Bruce. Looks as if John and Annie married in Birmingham on 5 September 1867.
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Alexander McKenzie, mother Gordon, died in Birnie in 1896 aged 74.
In the 1891 census Alexander Mckenzie, aged 69, born Cromdale, is a farmer in Birnie with wife Isabella and son William, 32, born Cromdale.
Probably William James McKenzie, born 27 August 1858 in Cromdale to Alexander McKenzie and Isabella McDonald.
Alexander's death certificate will tell you whether or not he was the son of William Mackenzie and Elspet Gordon, baptised in Cromdale on 20 September 1821.
Not that it will help with the search for Henry's birth.
I haven't found William b 1824 in any census after 1841 and there's no obvious death, so I don't know whom William married.
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Going right back to your very first post on this thread
Looking for Census 1871/1881 for Henry William McKenzie born 1869 in Inverness but no BC.
Remind me, please, why you originally thought Henry was born in 1869?
Parents William and Ann nee Gordon of Cromdale, Intervallan and Advie.
How did you know they were from Cromdale Inverallan and Advie? Where did that information come from?
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When I first searched for Ann Gordon I found CIA. My cousin who is much older than myself and lives far away thought she remembered the name Advie at the time. She lived with my grandparents.
My grandfather died 1949 aged 80 at graveyard and also aged 29 on MC in 1898, however Jan 1890 says he is 23 8months making it 1866.
Still searching for marriages for Helen 1839, Ann 1840 (surprised you say John McKenzie when?), John 1842 is in Birmingham, and Elspet McKenzie 1844. Who did she marry?
Thank you for sending me all the info on Alexander and brother and sister, so interesting, however confused as Elspat Gordon still alive, Anne’s sister, so another Elspat he married 1st. I have quite a few William McKenzies in CIA since looking - far too many really to ascertain anything concrete.
I did find a marriage of a William and Mary Fraser in 1869 in Inverness but wondered if it was 1824 son.
Why you wonder! I contacted my cousin hoping that she would remember more, as it is astounding how little she knows or remembers, but she said that she can remember him sometimes mentioning a Mary a sister or someone he knew. That really through me off balance. I didn’t want to hear that.
He talked a lot of the Gordons so definitely a connection of two families, but that may be it. Many thanks for everything. Diane.
Hope you are not too hot in Scotland. London is suffering. We are used to those temperatures in summer, and I am a keen swimmer and have been all my life. My mother Jessie was named after her mother who was one of the first lady lifesavers in Western Australia. Trivia. 🙋♀️
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When I first searched for Ann Gordon I found CIA. My cousin who is much older than myself and lives far away thought she remembered the name Advie at the time. She lived with my grandparents.
So it didn't come from any documentary source.
Still searching for marriages for Helen 1839, Ann 1840 (surprised you say John McKenzie when?), John 1842 is in Birmingham, and Elspet McKenzie 1844. Who did she marry?
There's no John Mackenzie in Birmingham in 1871 who could be yours. Are you thinking that the John McKensie in Walsall in 1871 is John b 1842 rather than his wife being Ann b 1840? You'd need to get their marriage certificate to see who their fathers were. She was definitely Mackenzie before her marriage because the birth listings of both boys on the GRO web site say so.
Thank you for sending me all the info on Alexander and brother and sister, so interesting, however confused as Elspat Gordon still alive, Anne’s sister, so another Elspat he married 1st.
Yes, it has to be a different Elspet Gordon. But you'd need to get her death certificate to be absolutely sure.
I did find a marriage of a William and Mary Fraser in 1869 in Inverness but wondered if it was 1824 son.
The marriage certificate would tell you. But I don't think so.William Mackenzie and Mary Fraser had two children, Mary b 1871 and Charles b 1873. They are in the 1881 census in Nairn, and William is aged 60, born Nairn. So no, he is not William b 1824 in Cromdale.
Hope you are not too hot in Scotland. London is suffering. We are used to those temperatures in summer, and I am a keen swimmer and have been all my life. My mother Jessie was named after her mother who was one of the first lady lifesavers in Western Australia. Trivia. 🙋♀️
No. It was over 30ºC in Aboyne yesterday, but it is a good excuse for sitting in the shade in the garden reading a book :)
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Ellen McKenzie married Samuel Bowman in CIA in 1870.
In the 1871 census Samuel Bowman, manager of a wholesale clothing department, and his wife Helen Bowman, 28 born Cromdale, Morayshire, are in Wigton, Cumberland, England.
In 1873 the birth of John Gordon McKenzie Bowman, mother's maiden surname McKenzie, was registered in Wigton.
In the 1881 census, at Burton on Trent, Staffordshire, are Ellen Bowman, 42, born Scotland; her son John G Bowman, 8 born Wigton; her sister Annie McKenzie, 40, born Scotland; and her niece Annie E McKenzie, 9, born Wigton.
Ellen Bowman, 47, died in Burton in 1886.
In 1891 Samuel Bowman, widower, tailor, born Scotland, is a patient in the Winson Green Workhouse hospital in Birmingham.
Samuel Bowman, aged given as 45, died in Birmingham in 1891.
If you want to be sure that 'your' Helen/Ellen Mackenzie is the one who married Samuel Bowman, their marriage certificate will tell you.
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Elsie McKenzie married William Munro in Cromdale in 1871. View the marriage certificate to make sure it's the right Elsie/Elspet.
They had two children
William Alexander John Munro, born 12 June 1873
John, born 5 November 1874
In 1881, in Tenement no 13, north side, Cromdale (that will be in Grantown - check the original to be sure) are
William Munro, head, 37, mason
Elsie Munro, wife, 36
William Alexr Munro, son, 7
John Munro, son, 6
all born in Cromdale
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When I looked up Sir John Gordon initially the manager of Geni said any John Gordon probably descended from Aboyne. Sounds like a nice place. I have learned so much of your geography on this trip and I can imagine my grandfather at the Highland Games tossing a caber as he was an imposing figure of 6ft in his kilt. His wife Charlotte from England only 5ft. My cousin now thinks Mary was a girlfriend left behind.
Scottish history is so complicated and it compels one to read more. I have traced my Harrisons from Lakes District to the Presidents of USA, and my Howell family to Kings of Wales, Cornish blacksmiths into Iron Foundries.
You are the only rootschat member who has helped me so much and you deserve a medal.
Henry didn’t get along with his father and he left never to return. He joined the Caledonian Society in Fremantle our Port, but no records kept.
I will keep searching for Jean Ann McKenzie difficult with no BC or parents, but probably still single in 1887.
Also Ann McKenzie born 1840 living with her mother aged 50, says married, but who did she marry?
I think I am now done. You will now have more time to read your book.
Diane ☕️
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Also Ann McKenzie born 1840 living with her mother aged 50, says married, but who did she marry?
I have already suggested (twice) that she married John McKenzie.
Get a copy of their marriage certificate to check. They were married in Birmingham, in 1867, the September quarter, Volume 6d, Page 200 is the reference you need.
Order it from https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp#Results
There is a listing at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2VT-W24 saying that the marriage took place on 5 September 1867 in St Stephen, Birmingham.
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I am still searching for father of William born about 1789/90 at Boharm.
William died in 1856. According to his death certificate, his parents were William Mackenzie and Helen Gordon.
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I thought Wm born 1791 parents Wm and Marg Sutherland married 1772 youngest of 8 children so I was wrong. Who were Ann’s children in Birmingham? Her brother also a John McKenzie, so I got confused living also in UK.
So many Gordons around Inverness, and they married a lot of McKenzies.
My daughter Jane is flying in from Victoria on Friday after not having been for 3 years for my son Michael’s 50th birthday, so I must get organised. All the best. Diane. 🎂
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I meant Inveron not Inverness.
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I thought Wm born 1791 parents Wm and Marg Sutherland married 1772 youngest of 8 children so I was wrong.
Not unless the death certificate is wrong.
Who were Ann’s children in Birmingham? Her brother also a John McKenzie, so I got confused living also in UK.
William John b 1868 and Alexander Bruce b 1869. See Reply #13 above.
They are in the 1871 census in Walsall (not Birmingham, though it's nearby) with their parents, both of whom are aged 30 (Ann's brother John would have been 28) and in the 1881 census with their grandmother in CIA.
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Just supporting docs for Forfarian's details re the marriage of John and Ann McKenzie in Birminham.
There is a parish marriage entry for St Stephen's Church on 5 Sep 1867 for them I think.
John McKenzie, age 25, a draper. Son of John McKenzie, farmer
Ann McKenzie, age 25, daughter of William John McKenzie, farmer
Address for both is given as Wheeler Street. Witnesses to marriage a David Tennant and a Mary Ann David.
Monica
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Thank you Monica for info. Did John McKenzie born 1842 marry? I thought he had moved to England. It is so far fetched, but whilst looking for Henry’s sister Jean (Jane) of near Huntly I found a Wm 1837 of Boharm married in 1870 another Marg Hay born 1848 and they had Jane in Huntly in 1871, Mary 1874 and Elizabeth 1881 - no Henry, and I can find no marriages for Jane and Mary, but Elizabeth m Wm McIntosh. Jane lived at New Road Culsalmond near Huntly in 1887. The coincidence of Boharm and also Ann’s brother Wm Gordon born 1811 Married a Margaret Hay. Probably means nothing!!
Is it possible to open Chelsea Pensioners Record Box 3379 Ref 973379136 or have you already done that to find Jean Ann McKenzie. Cheers. Di
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I found a Wm 1837 of Boharm married in 1870 another Marg Hay born 1848 and they had Jane in Huntly in 1871, Mary 1874 and Elizabeth 1881
Could you possibly be confusing William Mackenzie, who married Margaret Hay in Boharm in 1870, with William Gordon, probable brother of Ann Gordon, who married a different Margaret Hay and lived at Drumgrain in Inveravon?
In any case, according to the 1871 census, William Mackenzie, husband of Margaret Hay, was born in Cairney, not Boharm, and he was 30, so (assuming that his age is correct) he was born in 1840/1841, not 1837.
As the only thing about him that matches is his name, I think you can safely dismiss him.
Your William Mackenzie was baptised in January 1824, so he would have been 47 on the date of the 1871 census. There are 1,309 William M(a)ckenzies in the 1871 census in Scotland. Of these, 44 were born in 1824 plus or minus two years. I have looked at every single one of these 44 William M(a)ckenzies and none of them was born in CIA or anywhere close to it. Therefore (barring deficiencies in the census and in the transcription I am using), your William M(a)ckenzie was not in Scotland on the day of the 1871 census.
There are also 10 in England, of whom there are 3 aged 47 and born in Scotland: one each in Liverpool, Shrewsbury and Croydon.
In 1851 there were 89 William M(a)ckenzies born 1824 plus of minus two years. I baulked at 89, but I looked at all of the 49 born 1824 plus or minus one year. Of these, none was born in CIA. The only one who could possibly be yours is the one in Shrewsbury, who was a draper and tea dealer's assistant.
So I took a look at the 1861 census for Shrewsbury, and the household consisted of
William McKenzie, 37, draper and tea dealer
Ann McKenzie, sister, 20, house keeper
John McKenzie, brother, 18, draper's assisant
all born Scotland.
So I am pretty sure that these are the family of your William Mackenzie.
In 1871 William is listed with his wife Charlotte but no children. William Mackenzie married Charlotte Sears in King's Norton in 1870. Therefore I think you can almost certainly eliminate William as a potential father of your Henry. Certainly not a legitimate father.
I can't (so far) find John in 1871 or later.
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This is my epilogue for Henry who has told a few porkies and may not want to be found. Maybe he wants to be a Gordon, naming his son Gordon Hector, and mother Ann Gordon. I have searched many Ann Gordons - found 2 marriages to McKenzie, but no success, then I decided to search Jean Ann McKenzie who he said was his sister at New Street Culsalmond by Huntly. No New Street but a New Road in Huntly so a wild goose chase.
I then looked for a William McKenzie near Huntly and found Wm McKenzie of Cairnie by Huntly born 1837 on 10 May (Henry’s birth date by coincidence) who married Margaret Hay in 1870. They had a Jane (Jean) 1871, Mary 1874, Elizabeth 1881 and no Henry, but suspicious because looking into it I found that his wife is a cousin to Margaret Hay who married William Gordon born 1811 who is brother to Ann Gordon of CIA. The Hay girls fathers James and John going to John Gordon and Jean Bain.
I have been looking for the birth dates of children of Wm Gordon of Drumgrain, Inveravon but cannot find the three Christina m Robertson, John and William in 1851 Census.
What I did find was an Alexander born 1851, but then a strange one Wm Ann McKenzie Gordon born 1853 a daughter. As a long shot maybe she had Henry in 1869. It seemed to be their practice not to register names. Wm lived with his sister Elspet until 1899.
I may get into the army papers one day, but doubt if they will tell me more. I think he lied re birthdate but came back to his real one.
I believe that someone in this family had Henry, but I will never know. Family like to keep in touch, especially the Hay cousins, and I am sure Henry rode his horse visiting these families. It is what I want to believe anyway. He left on his own to start a new life, so many worries and untruths which is sad.
I really appreciate the patience and help along the way, but if no definite certificates it is impossible. Diane