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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: Mr.Brown. on Friday 29 April 22 17:42 BST (UK)
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Hi - this is the second time this has happened to me
I searched the GRO for a John Storey of 1841 who I knew to be illegitimate and there was only one record with no mother shown in the correct area so ordered it.
What arrived was a record for 'a' John Storey of the correct area but with a mother and father shown so obviously the wrong person.
I have queried it and they reply saying the record they sent is the one I ordered.
So the way I see it is they have the wrong info on their database for record that I ordered and so it is their fault...but no... they repeat that the record they sent is the one I ordered - SO THEY HAVE THE INFO ON THE RECORD WRONG but are just fobbing me off saying they sent what I ordered - this happened once before and I let it pass but am now I am chasing it up as it is wrong and needs sorting out.
They could have Fred Bloggs on the record and send Mary Jones if they had the info wrong but would be adamant that what they sent was what I ordered !
Can anyone tell me what I can do to get my money back or the correct record if there actually is one...Thanks, Gordon.
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It may be that the illegitimate one wasn't registered.
MMN sometimes do not appear in the index, an unknown/not shown MMN GENERALLY shows an illegitimate birth, but not always
Pauline
is this the one that was ordered?
STOREY, JOHN -
GRO Reference: 1841 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE UNION Volume 25 Page 303
Where is your john and with whom in 1841?
That child should probably be appearing in the census of that yaer
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Personally, I'd buy the other record. Assuming the record is you ordered was the one referenced by Pauline, by the "other" record, I mean the one on page 325.
If the GRO then send you the same record again then at least you have some data that you can question them about. They couldn't really deny sending you the same record for different record references, and they would have to explain themselves. And if they are at fault, hopefully they'd sort out the correct record and, with a bit luck, reimburse you for one of the orders.
And if the GRO send you a different record, then it may suggest that it's simple an error in their index. You'd be £7 out of pocket but at least you'd have some answers, even if they aren't the ones you want or expect.
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is this the one that was ordered?
STOREY, JOHN -
GRO Reference: 1841 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE UNION Volume 25 Page 303
Where is your john and with whom in 1841?
That child should probably be appearing in the census of that yaer
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Yes that is the one I ordered and the one that came is attached with mother and father so they are obviously displaying the wrong information.
My point is that the GRO are taking money and not accepting responsibility of having got it by advertising wrong information.
This is the second illegitimate John Storey I have tried and the other was an illegitimate child but not the one I searching for...
But like you say he may not have been registered but that is not the point - I have lost money and GRO are not accepting responsibility.
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An observation would be that you must have some information as to WHY the other baseborn John Storey wasn't yours, and you COULD have specified that the one just ordered should only be sent if it was also baseborn.
I think you are blaming the GRO for your erroneous assumptions.
Pauline
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No that's not right at all.
The other I ordered was the one that they advertised on their database with no father and that is what I got.
This one is shown with NO father but as you can see on the attachment he has a mother and father shown.
I am most certainly not blaming the GRO for my erroneous assumptions and if that is what you are reading into this you are not getting the point that what I ordered a child with no father shown and what i received is a child with both parents shown!
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It is shown with no MMN, not "no father".
There have been previous examples of where the MMN is not indexed,even when the father is named
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Looking at the 1841 birth cert the OP attached above, I can see why the GRO has correctly indexed it as MMN (-). The mother and informant is Margaret Crudace (unmarried) but she names the father: Oswald Storey. This is an illegitimate birth. So what is the issue?
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It is shown with no MMN, not "no father".
There have been previous examples of where the MMN is not indexed,even when the father is named
We seem to be going around is circles here - does the record attached have a mother's maiden name of Crudance or not? Is there a maiden name on the record that the GRO are advertising...NO
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If a birth is illegitimate the GRO index the birth as MMN (-). That is your clue the birth is illegitimate.
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Looking at the 1841 birth cert the OP attached above, I can see why the GRO has correctly indexed it as MMN (-). The mother and informant is Margaret Crudace (unmarried) but she names the father: Oswald Storey. This is an illegitimate birth. So what is the issue?
Ahh yes I can see what you mean - Thank you.
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In this instance, the GRO must've gleaned from the record itself the birth was illegitimate, even though the child is registered as STOREY. Hence the MMN (-) index. The devil is in the details. ;D
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The indexes show the MMN only when the mother is wed.
Unmarried mothers birth surnames are not indexed.
Pauline
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It's worth knowing, if an illegitimate child is registered without the father being present then the child would be registered with the mother's surname.
Your illegitimate child was registered with the father's surname i.e. he must have been present, however, the column you have a query with is MMN (which is blank) because she wasn't married i.e. didn't have a Maiden Surname.
That column only relates to married women.
Annie
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It's worth knowing, if an illegitimate child is registered without the father being present then the child would be registered with the mother's surname.
Your illegitimate child was registered with the father's surname i.e. he must have been present, however, the column you have a query with is MMN (which is blank) because she wasn't married i.e. didn't have a Maiden Surname.
That column only relates to married women.
Annie
Sorry but the above is not correct there are a number of circumstances where a child's birth can be registered without the unmarried father being present. Up until 1875 the father did not have to be present for the mother to give the fathers name when registering the birth. The laws regarding this have been changed a number of times including one, using form GRO185 where the mother does not agree to the father's name being added.
The subject is too complex to deal with here.
Cheers
Guy
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Oswald, Margaret, and John are together in Newcastle in the 1841 census.
Oswald may have been married to Dorothy Gibbon in 1838.
You certainly have the wrong birth certificate.
Death
CRUDICE, JOHN STOREY
Age at Death (in years): 0
GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE UNION Volume 25 Page 201
Incidentally, Margaret's death in desperate circumstances in 1850 is in the newspapers, with inquest reports, and at first Oswald was under suspicion!
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Marriage, 13 Jan 1847, Newcastle, All Saints
Oswald Storey + Margaret Crudace
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLWP-8FJ5
I searched the GRO for a John Storey of 1841 who I knew to be illegitimate
Can anyone tell me what I can do to get my money back or the correct record if there actually is one
You could post more details about the John you are actually looking for?
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Hi - this is the second time this has happened to me
I searched the GRO for a John Storey of 1841 who I knew to be illegitimate and there was only one record with no mother shown in the correct area so ordered it.
What arrived was a record for 'a' John Storey of the correct area but with a mother and father shown so obviously the wrong person.
I have queried it and they reply saying the record they sent is the one I ordered.
Can anyone tell me what I can do to get my money back or the correct record if there actually is one...Thanks, Gordon.
I've had a good handful of Births purchased via GRO gov.uk Online, relating to a surname study where the Mother's Maiden Surname was blank on the GRO Online Births Index when ordering, but a Mother's Maiden Surname was originally recorded on those corresponding Certificates when they arrived.
The GRO used another already digitised Index to go online.
Check if Baptised Before Ordering from GRO
Although not every child was baptised or birth recorded by a Chapel or Meeting, especially after Civil Registration began in 1837, I try to see if their bapt and a Mother is recorded on my subs site images, etc., but a baptism date is not usually a birth date.
Newspapers and London Gazette
I search Newspapers from circa 1800 (fewer Births early on), especially Marriages, Deaths, etc., as I want to see if they contain the slightest extra snippet. Not everyone inserted a notice, but if in business or owned property, one family surname line was mentioned over 25 times 1815 to about 1890 (not including same notices which occurred in up to 5 newspapers).
Correcting an Entry
If signed in to GRO gov.uk on the GRO Menu, there was a button to report an error or update (one Certificate at a time), they check it and respond with either updated, or no further action (NFA) against my report.
I've asked for some checks after getting the Certificate, but you will need to note all the Index details down, year, qtr, vol, page, Reg District, name, to enter it with your correction update.
Having helped GRO add/correct quite a few I'd reported, I did give Birth Index details on one I was unsure of purchasing (because the baptised child had a mother recorded - bapt Register) and ask GRO where the mother's surname was and it came back NFA, so I knew there was likely no mother recorded in their GRO Volume either and unlikely to be the Birth Certificate I was seeking.
Mark
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Having helped GRO add/correct quite a few I'd reported, I did give Birth Index details on one I was unsure of purchasing (because the baptised child had a mother recorded - bapt Register) and ask GRO where the mother's surname was and it came back NFA, so I knew there was likely no mother recorded in their GRO Volume either and unlikely to be the Birth Certificate I was seeking.
Mark
Hi Mark,
Excuse my ignorance but...
Can you tell me what the acronym 'NFA' stands for?...
Annie
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NFA or No Further Action
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Correcting an Entry
If signed in to GRO gov.uk on the GRO Menu, there was a button to report an error or update (one Certificate at a time), they check it and respond with either updated, or no further action (NFA) against my report.
I've asked for some checks after getting the Certificate, but you will need to note all the Index details down, year, qtr, vol, page, Reg District, name, to enter it with your correction update.
Having ...
Mark
See attached pdf 1.2, it looks like the GRO were anticipating some errors in their digitised records.
"1.2 Searching the indexes
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Q9. Why is GRO publishing an online index when other organisations have already done this?
The new index will contain additional data fields to those which are already available and this will assist family historians to identify the correct record. In addition, the index is created from the digitised records and is not a copy of the existing index which is already made available by third party organisations. We will also be able to update our online index if errors or omissions have been identified."
Mark