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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: AusFamily on Friday 22 April 22 08:46 BST (UK)
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Looking for birth details for a Mary Ford (née Hill)
place of birth on the 1851 census: "Penzance", she gives her age as 38, birth year 1813.
https://www.ancestry.com.au/sharing/28205571?h=535f9d
1841 census: Born outside of Devon, age 25, birth year 1816.
https://www.ancestry.com.au/sharing/28205556?h=408e05
Her marriage: 29 Nov 1840, St Andrew, Plymouth to Robert Ford, gives her age as "of full age"; her father is given as Nicholas Hill, occupation: farmer.
this image is on FindMyPast and not on ancestry, therefore not sure how to share a link
Robert Ford was baptised 26 Sep 1819, residence: Hooe, Plymstock, Devon (Plymouth, St Andrew)
I also found this birth entry from 1804 on familysearch, with father Nicholas, but seems a bit early
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGLK-T2KC
FindMyPast also has an entry for a Mary Hill, b 1820, Marazion, Cornwall, but with no father's name. In fact there are only five **added women in Cornwall named Mary Hill born 1815 +/- 10 years on FindMyPast, four out of five of them well outside the Penzance area
She passed away in 1859, Stoke Damerel, Devon. Robert Ford remarried in 1865.
The following info is from an ancestry tree: Burial date 27 Nov 1859 Plymouth, Ford Park Cemetery Grave type Common Memorial reference Section B, No.025, Row 028 Document reference 1015/1 Plymouth & West Devon Record Office
Have searched ancestry & findmypast with no definite answers. How well were records kept back around that period in Penzance district?
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Hi You do realize that in 1841 all adult ages should have been rounded down to the next 5 years, so showing her as 25 years old means she could have been any age between 25 and 29.
OK her husband's age is shown as 21 but if you look at the majority of adults on those pages their ages end in 0 or 5.
Also if her husband's age is correct at 21 she would have been older than him and there was nothing to stop her massaging her age to appear closer to his age.
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Hi You do realize that in 1841 all adult ages should have been rounded down to the next 5 years, so showing her as 25 years old means she could have been any age between 25 and 29.
OK her husband's age is shown as 21 but if you look at the majority of adults on those pages their ages end in 0 or 5.
Also if her husband's age is correct at 21 she would have been older than him and there was nothing to stop her massaging her age to appear closer to his age.
Thankyou
Yes, she was definitely older than him according to the census data in both 1841 and 1851. That would appear to give one only 2 choices then, the Mary Hill bap in 1804, St. Just in Penwith, Cornwall (with father Nicholas) or in bap 1820, Marazion, Cornwall (with no father's name). Unless there is another source of data that I am unaware of.
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Anything from the witnesses
(Richard Donovan & Jane Bartelet?)
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FPLY%2F004634333%2F00118&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F35111068%2F1
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The Nicholas married to Alice died in 1810 and left a will
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-65MS-S4F?i=2898&cat=329778
He mentions wife Alice, 7 children including sons Nicholas, Thomas and Ralph, brother Ralph, brother in law Thomas Brombley and Thomas Nekervis. He appears to have been a farmer as crops & livestock are mentioned.
I've been checking the Mary Hills who married in St Just in Penwith to see if one could be the daughter of Nicholas.
1. marriage 21 Dec 1828 to Christopher Roberts witnessed by William Hill - census shows this Mary to have been c. 1798
2. marriage 13 Nov 1836 to James Thomas, one witness being Thomas Hill. 1841 census has James & Mary Thomas in same house as Thomas & Jane Hill so baptism to Thomas & Jane Hill 28 June 1816.
3. marriage 11 June 1840, this Mary aged 20 and daughter of Ralph.
No likely parish burial for Mary baptised 1804 either.
The opc database has many transcribed records
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/person-search/
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So Nicholas had 4 daughters probably still children when he died.
Can we find their baptisms
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From FreeReg.
Alice 5/1/1800
Elizabeth 1/11/1802
Mary 1311/1804
Lucy 24/8/1806
All St Just
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Anything from the witnesses
(Richard Donovan & Jane Bartelet?)
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBPRS%2FPLY%2F004634333%2F00118&parentid=GBPRS%2FM%2F35111068%2F1
Not sure who they are Pauline. Plymouth was a long way from Penzance back in 1850
FindMyPast has: 2 Richard Donovans b 100 miles radius from Cornwall +/-40 yrs of 1820 - b Exeter 1845 & b Ermington (Devon) 1846. None born in Cornwall. Lots born in Gloucestershire
There is a 1871 census entry for a Jane Bartellett b 1831 Cornwall (place name too difficult to read on original), living in St Martin, Liskeard, Cornwall
1841 census entry for Jane Bartlett b 1837 Devon, living in St Sidwell, Exeter, Devon
1861 census entry for Jane Barttelet b 1824 Bridport Dorset, living in Tiverton, Devon
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The opc database has many transcribed records
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/person-search/
Thanks for your searches and the above link. I checked the link and could not find any Mary Hill in the whole of Cornwall between 1800-1820 with father Nicholas apart from the 1804 birth mentioned.
1) Is it likely that in 1840 a 21 year old man would marry a 36 year old woman?
2) Are records from Cornwall missing and incomplete for the period 1813-1816, in which Mary is supposed to have been born (from census data)? I have found this to be the case for this period for the Isle of Skye in Scotland, where I was doing other family research.
3) Her age at death is given as 46: GRO Reference: 1859 D Quarter in STOKE DAMEREL Volume 05B Page 239 - which would place her birth as 1813, if correct
4) the only other candidates are two 1816 births with no father's name given: b Advent & b Falmouth and a 1808 birth Mary Ann Rogers Hill in Illogan - but I see these are a long way from Penzance. There is a 1820 birth no father's name given in Marazion, which is near Penzance.
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The opc database has many transcribed records
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/person-search/
2) Are records from Cornwall missing and incomplete for the period 1813-1816, in which Mary is supposed to have been born (from census data)?
The opc database (above link) gives you complete information about record coverage in all parishes.
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Right this may be pure fantasy but who knows.
We can only find one Nicholas Hill who was a farmer in St Just.
Mary named him as her father. True or massive coincidence?
He died in 1810. What would the chance be of the Mary Hill born 1820 knowing about him?
I think one of the marriages could be Mary, but that marriage failed and Mary wanted out.
At that time Cornwall was still in the grip of Smuggling and to a certain extent it was regarded as the Wild West.
Mary could have very easily got a boat from Penzance to Plymouth, I guess there were hundreds of small boats sailing along the Southern Cornish coast from Penzance, the most westerly port on the south coast to Plymouth the first city they would reach and it was in Devon.
Once across the Tamar and in Devon she could easily find work legal or illegal and she felt safe enough to revert to her maiden name.
Age, well at that time, no birth certificates and age wasn't as important as it is today.
She may not have known her exact age but she obviously realized she was older than her husband so she could have removed a few years to appear closer to his age.
I think DNA would be a way forward on this. If a match could be found with descendants of any of the St Just Hills then that may be a good as it gets.
I think as much work as possible should be done on all of Nicholas' children and also try and follow up the Mary Hill marriages. This might just eliminate some people but to find some concrete evidence I think will be extremely difficult.
As I said could be pure fantasy but try I won't do any harm.
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I found the baptisms of the girls easy but the boys not so.
At the moment I can find Nicholas 9/11/1794 BUT he is buried 4/11/1795
so when I have more time I'll have another look.
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We can only find one Nicholas Hill who was a farmer in St Just.
Mary named him as her father. True or massive coincidence?
He died in 1810. What would the chance be of the Mary Hill born 1820 knowing about him?
Thanks for your interesting comments, which could well have been the case. Still puzzles me that a 21 year old man would want to marry a 36 year old woman - but maybe there were reasons we don't understand.
The Mary born in Marazion in 1920 has no father's name listed in the old parish register, only a mother, Mary. Does this imply she was born out of wedlock?
Otherwise, as you say the ONLY Mary with father Nicholas recorded in the entire county of Cornwall between 1800-1820 listed, is the 1804 birth in St Just in Penwith entry.
She had three children after marrying a 21 yr old Robert Edwin Ford in 1840 in Devon:
William Henry 1842 - migrated to NZ in 1863, and later to Australia, date of death unknown.
Mary Jane 1844 - 1912
and Henrietta 1846 - who died as a child in 1852.
A stupid question perhaps, but given that nutrition was perhaps not as good in those days, were women still of child bearing age in their late 30s/early 40s at the time?
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Women did give birth until well into their forties, they tended to have longer intervals between children than they did when they were in their twenties but still fertile.
As I have said earlier way back then people were not as hung up on their ages as we are now.
I am still trying to trace Mary's siblings.
Nicholas and Alice married at Madron, normally that would be the wife's parish, I suspect Alice could have moved back there after Nicholas's death but I can't find any trace of her remarrying or dying.
What I can find is Lucy and Elizabeth both marrying at Madron within 2 weeks of each other.
Alice married Edward Harry 17/9/1826 and Elizabeth married William Glasson 26/9/1826.
Lucy didn't marry until she was in her Thirties, she married William Rule at Marazion 16/41836 and she went on to have children up to 1851.
None of the girls married young.
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Not a problem with women having children in their 30s & early 40s. An ancestor born 1808 had her last child in 1852.
Mary born Marazion with no father on baptism would have been born out of wedlock.
I agree that travel from Penzance to Plymouth would have been easy by sea.
Smuggling however was past its peak
https://www.cornwall-calling.co.uk/smugglers.htm
The Mary Hills who married in St Just were still in Cornwall on the 1841 census so no sign of a marriage breakdown in time for a remarriage in Plymouth.
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marriage for Nicholas & Alice shows her residence as Penzance
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=1219125
so probable baptism 30 April 1773 in Madron
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=3416464
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Penzance is mentioned here with regard to smuggling in the 19th century.
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornwalls-towns-were-smuggling-havens-6459428
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Thank you everyone
So as we don't have any other evidence for a Mary Hill with father's name Nicholas apart from the 1804 St Just in Penwith baptism, will have to assume that this is the correct one, even though it places her about ten years older than her census and death entries. The only other possibility is that the records have been lost or destroyed, if she was from a rural area near Penzance.
The 1840 Plymouth marriage entry does not say her father was deceased. Was that a requirement at the time?
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Father deceased. Well it all depends what the vicar asked her and what she replied.
Remember that form of marriage certificate had only been in existence from July 1837 so not something the vicar had been filling in for many years.
You can imagine him asking the groom first 'What's your father's name and occupation' him answering and then saying to Mary 'and yours' She did answer him truly but if he didn't ask her 'is he still alive' and she didn't volunteer the information then there are many cases where this happened.
I think at the moment you will have to accept she was the 1804 Mary but like I said earlier DNA may be the way forward.
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Image of the marriage is on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-QW98-NH
You can whizz through and see if any fathers are given as deceased (a good few must have been). I didn't see any.
Better by far though than just seeing the word "Deceased" in the father's occupation column!
Residence for Mary, 2 Catherine Street
In 1841, Catherine Street, St Andrew, begins with John Hoar, 30, Publican, piece 270 book 5 folio 24 page 43
On page 45, Susanna Bartlett, a nurse at some kind of alms house? With a 10 year old of the same name, and a Mary Bartlett, 74, on the next page, one of the residents?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQTL-Z3X
Possibly of of no relevance. There was another Catherine Street in Stoke Damerel, but presumably it's this one Mary meant?
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She had three children after marrying a 21 yr old Robert Edwin Ford in 1840 in Devon:
William Henry 1842 - migrated to NZ in 1863, and later to Australia, date of death unknown.
Mary Jane 1844 - 1912
and Henrietta 1846 - who died as a child in 1852.
Is Edwin eliminated as a possible last one?
FORD, EDWIN
Mother's Maiden Surname: HILL
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in PLYMOUTH Volume 09 Page 370
Burial of Edwin Ford, Infant, 21 Aug 1848, St Andrew
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-QW9L-NS
Age 0 in death index.
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She had three children after marrying a 21 yr old Robert Edwin Ford in 1840 in Devon:
William Henry 1842 - migrated to NZ in 1863, and later to Australia, date of death unknown.
Mary Jane 1844 - 1912
and Henrietta 1846 - who died as a child in 1852.
Is Edwin eliminated as a possible last one?
FORD, EDWIN
Mother's Maiden Surname: HILL
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in PLYMOUTH Volume 09 Page 370
Burial of Edwin Ford, Infant, 21 Aug 1848, St Andrew
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-QW9L-NS
Age 0 in death index.
Thankyou for finding that one. I was unaware of it. I would say a very high chance of being the correct family - thanks again
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FORD, EDWIN
Mother's Maiden Surname: HILL
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in PLYMOUTH Volume 09 Page 370
May I ask pls where you found this with mother surname HILL, please?
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Hi
On the GRO website. You just need to register, and then you can search their new birth and death indexes for free. You don't need to order anything.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Maiden surnames of mothers are given back to 1837.
There was another Ford-Hill couple in Plymouth, Thomas and Mary. There last certain child seems to be Nathaniel in 1843. Mary was 52 in 1851, so would have been about 48 when Edwin was born, so possibly they are less likely to be his parents.
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Hi
On the GRO website. You just need to register, and then you can search their new birth and death indexes for free. You don't need to order anything.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Maiden surnames of mothers are given back to 1837.
There was another Ford-Hill couple in Plymouth, Thomas and Mary. There last certain child seems to be Nathaniel in 1843. Mary was 52 in 1851, so would have been about 48 when Edwin was born, so possibly they are less likely to be his parents.
Thanks for that JonW
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I found the baptisms of the girls easy but the boys not so.
At the moment I can find Nicholas 9/11/1794 BUT he is buried 4/11/1795
so when I have more time I'll have another look.
How can we be certain that this Nicholas' death was an infant death (see below)? It may have been Nicholas Hill's father or another relative? Only the FindMyPast transcripts are available and they didn't indicate an infant death, and ancestry.com didn't seem to have anything of interest either. Originals are locked away with Cornwall family history society I imagine. familysearch.org doesn't seem to have anything either.
I have found the following HILL births using FindMyPast with father Nicholas & mother Alice (all bap. St Just in Penwith except Thomas):
Nicholas Hill
1794–
Thomas Hill (bap. Sancreed)
1798–
Alice Hill
1800–
John Hill
1801–
Elizabeth Hill
1802–
Mary Hill (mother's named spelt "Allis" on transcript)
1804–
Lucy Hill
1806–
Ralph Hill
1810–
Just to reiterate, father Nicholas' will mentions seven living children in his will in 1810.
His burial record for 1810 is here: https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=902149
Son Nicholas is mentioned in the will towards the end of the page, so he must have survived past 1795. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-65MS-S4F?i=2898&cat=329778
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I found the baptisms of the girls easy but the boys not so.
At the moment I can find Nicholas 9/11/1794 BUT he is buried 4/11/1795
so when I have more time I'll have another look.
How can we be certain that this death was an infant death? It may have been Nicholas Hill's father?
Burial records says he is the “son of Nicholas”.
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I found the baptisms of the girls easy but the boys not so.
At the moment I can find Nicholas 9/11/1794 BUT he is buried 4/11/1795
so when I have more time I'll have another look.
How can we be certain that this death was an infant death? It may have been Nicholas Hill's father?
Burial records says he is the “son of Nicholas”.
thanks Neale
where did you find the original burial records?
Also note that a Nicholas Hill son of Nicholas Hill was still alive in 1810 as he is mentioned in the father's will (see previous post)
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Could simply be an error by the cleric in the parish record. I note that Ralph and Ann Hill had a son named Nicholas born 1790 in the same parish - might be this child.
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some registers are on FamilySearch
1795 burial
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rm4/
transcribed on the opc database
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=924673
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some registers are on FamilySearch
1795 burial
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rm4/
transcribed on the opc database
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=924673
thanks for the tip on familysearch.org, I always find the site a bit tricky to navigate
much appreciated
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you can search names from here
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1769414
and if there's a camera symbol, an image is attached.
;)
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you can search names from here
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1769414
and if there's a camera symbol, an image is attached.
;)
Thank you!
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The Nicholas married to Alice died in 1810 and left a will
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-65MS-S4F?i=2898&cat=329778
He mentions wife Alice, 7 children including sons Nicholas, Thomas and Ralph, brother Ralph, brother in law Thomas Brombley and Thomas Nekervis. He appears to have been a farmer as crops & livestock are mentioned.
I've been checking the Mary Hills who married in St Just in Penwith to see if one could be the daughter of Nicholas.
1. marriage 21 Dec 1828 to Christopher Roberts witnessed by William Hill - census shows this Mary to have been c. 1798
2. marriage 13 Nov 1836 to James Thomas, one witness being Thomas Hill. 1841 census has James & Mary Thomas in same house as Thomas & Jane Hill so baptism to Thomas & Jane Hill 28 June 1816.
3. marriage 11 June 1840, this Mary aged 20 and daughter of Ralph.
No likely parish burial for Mary baptised 1804 either.
The opc database has many transcribed records
https://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/person-search/
Thanks for this osprey. I've now gone through each of these marriages and have accounted for them all in subsequent censuses. I also looked through all the marriages in the Penzance / St Just area 1825 up until 1840 and accounted for them. It would seem my relative Mary Hill never married before she arrived in Devon, which could have been connected somehow to the smuggling trade.