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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: haney on Wednesday 20 April 22 23:56 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone
I am doing research on the above who was married to my MICHAEL BYRNE of Sydney in 1822. I had been trying to find information on her for a long time as I could not find her under BYRNE or variants on the 1822 Muster.
WELL this morning I found her listed under DUNN even though she was married to Michael ON THE 1822 Muster. She came free (date??) on the BRITOMART (age??)
1822??? BRITOMART ARRIVES ??? (WITH IMMIGRANTS??)
1822 Michael BYRNE and Miss Catherine DUNN married 20 June 1822 St. Mary’s. Mary DUNN and James DEMPSEY witness's
1822 Muster 22 September Michael BURNE FBS Minerva 7 years Maltster Sydney
1822 Land and Stock Muster Michael Byrne of Sydney, 700 bushels wheat, 300 bushels maize held, 46 horned cattle, 23 hogs
1823 5 June Michael and Catherine (Dunn) BYRNE witness/sponsors at the baptism of twins William and Thomas CHALLENOR, Pitt St Sydney.
1823 November 5 Memorial states he had a family to provide for!!!{ ie one son William! born 1806 and wife Catherine}
Now I'm hoping to find some information on her arrival/place of origin anything in general really.
She seems to have married him either soon after her arrival (OR perhaps it was arranged!!) OR she could have stayed at his accommodation in Pitts Street Sydney. Any information on Catherin DUNN would be appreciated to add to Michaels timeline. Kindest regards Dianna
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Mary Dunn may well be Catherine’s mother …… she is a "land holder" in the 1822 muster
Colonial Secretary's Papers, 1788-1825
Mary Dunn (free per Britomart 1822) of Cockle Bay is on a persons receiving an assigned convict; 30/09/1823
In 1824 she is Mary Dunn of Kent Street (persons receiving an assigned convict)
In 1822 she is Mary Dunn of Cobarty. (persons receiving an assigned convict)
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This lists Mrs Dunn and Miss Dunn on Brigomart
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2180875?searchTerm=Dunn%20AND%20britomart
Britomart a 242 ton brig/sloop when commissioned into the Royal Navy when launched at Deptford, Kent in 1808, and as a barque when it was privately owned from 1819. It was a two deck ship, copper sheathed, and was able to carry armaments to defend itself in time of war, or from piracy at any time
Britomart’s first voyage to Australia was in 1822 – it arrived Hobart February 4th, Captain Daniel Peach, having departed Deal, England September 9th 1821, via Cape of Good Hope. It carried passengers and general merchandise. It departed Hobart for Port Jackson, Feb.26, later sailing for Valparaiso, Chile, returning later to Port Jackson.
ADDED:
Tasmanian records have a Mrs Dunn & Miss Dunn departing from Hobart to Port Jackson on Britomart 26 Feb 1822.
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Hi there,
Back in 1810, the incoming governor (Lachlan Macquarie) overhauled the penal colony's admin system and basically - perhaps following his own Scottish tradition - the recording of the names of females from at least 1810 until perhaps the end of the penal period (around 1840), meant that on official records whatever the SURNAME the female arrived with, STUCK with them, regardless of how many times they married/co-habited/had children by various domestic partners. The women tended to use their husband's surnames for everyday matters, but the Admin bods tended to keep the surname the womenfolk were recorded on arrival. Consequentally for example, at least three of my (g x ?) grandmothers/great-aunts are on the 1828 census under their childhood surnames (one under their unmarried mum's birth surname), despite growing up in Sydney Town, marrying in Sydney Town, and having babies - in Sydney Town ! and ... wait for it .... still living with their 'lawful' husbands in Sydney Town - all before the 1828 census was announced.
The Britomart is listed at the Colonial Secretary Index at the following link : https://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/ and
Daniel PEACHE was the Master of the vessel at that time, and he is also listed there.
A lass named Catherine DUNN is also listed there, she is seeking permission to marry at Liverpool, May 3, 6 of 1822. Reel 6009 etc....
My offline resources give me further information about the marriage you mention. She was NOT married at St Mary's. The clergy who conducted the ceremony at Liverpool has obeyed the church requirements and the civil requirements and the information has been received by the Roman Catholic authorities and is recorded in the Diocese records held at St Marys Cathedral. Roman Catholic ceremonies were not formally recognised by the civil admin system until around 1825, so it is fortunate that the details of the 1822 ceremony were transmitted through and that there is an extant record.
Here is some information from my notes re the likely marriage you are writing about. (I have a research interest in NSW marriages in those early years).
NOTICE there's a lack of a clergy name, and that there's NO signatures (not even X mark), no occupations, no abodes, no ship of arrival, no ages, no parents names ...etc.
20 June 1822
Michael BYRNE and Catherine DUNN
Witnesses (THREE) : Farell CUFF, James DEMPSEY, Mary DUNN.
Likely you will also find the marriage listed at the on-going project, Biographical Database of Australia. There is a nominal annual subscription fee for that website : https://www.bda-online.org.au/
who was Mary DUNN?
JM
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The 1828 census has a Mary Dunn age 60, Catholic, came free in 1822, living in Sussex Street.
Only issue is her ship is recorded as "Britannia" – an error? I can't find "Britannia" arriving 1822.
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The 1828 census has a Mary Dunn age 60, Catholic, came free in 1822, living in Sussex Street.
Only issue is her ship is recorded as Brittania – an error?
Yes, could well be a typo, or a mis-heard response recorded by an admin bod born in a different part of the UK so not familiar with that Mary DUNN's accent.
Have you checked the 1828 set of records that are the focus of the following thread? https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810812.0
JM
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Mary DUNN has quite a number of entries INDEXED at the BDA, so too Farrell CUFF (various spellings) and James DEMPSEY.
JM
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Farrell Cuff – an unusual name. He was an Irish political prisoner who came on Minerva 1800. He was a school master, born in County Offaly.
He was sent to Norfolk Island after the 1800 conspiracies, back in Sydney by 1806 and worked as a clerk. He had returned to teaching by 1814.
1809 Dec 23: Farrell Cuffe - on list of all grants and leases of town allotments registered in the Colonial Secretary’s Office
1822 Nov 14: Of Pitt Street. On list of persons receiving an assigned convict
1825 May 6: On list of persons who have received orders for grants of land
1845 Died aged 73.
James Dempsey – another Irish convict
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dempsey_(builder)
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Hi to you all!
This is fantastic really. I am reading through everything now. Woo hoo! Re their marriage it say's abode Sydney BUT for the place of marriage nothing!! I realise that St. Mary's wasn't really functioning as a church until the early 1830's from memory.
I just imagined that they were possibly married in Sydney BUT at one of the two?? houses that were used for worship then. One was James Dempsey's home and other was William Davis. Williams house became St. Patricks Church in Sydney. Well his land did anyway. I will post if I can the bits I found from SAG re the marriage register.
Will double check BDA I could not see any Catherine DUNN arriving on the BRITOMART, will check on MARY DUNN now
Catherine married him very smartly. Wonder how that happened. Thanks so much looking forward to finding more. Regards Dianna
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Catherine DUNN marriage
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Catherine and Michael
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Catherine DUNN (Byrne)
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Thomas Challenor, son of William Challenor of Pitt Street, and Barbara Thompson; [NSW AUS]; Baptised: 5 Jun 1823, Baptised at Sydney [NSW AUS]; Registered at St Mary's Roman Catholic, Sydney, [NSW AUS]; Sponsor Michael Byrne, Original Remarks: Sponsor: Catherine Byrne: Sponsor: William Rowen: Sponsor: Catherine Evans [Biog Item No. 320210395]
Hi Everyone
I am doing research on the above who was married to my MICHAEL BYRNE of Sydney in 1822. I had been trying to find information on her for a long time as I could not find her under BYRNE or variants on the 1822 Muster.
......
1823 5 June Michael and Catherine (Dunn) BYRNE witness/sponsors at the baptism of twins William and Thomas CHALLENOR, Pitt St Sydney.
.....
The BDA database has some info which I can confirm is similar to the info I gathered while researching back in the late 1970s.
My trusty notebook for that era is on loan, but my cousin has phoned me just now to confirm it has (I have read it back with careful regard to spelling etc) :
a baptism (not two babies, just one)
Thomas, a son for William CHALLENOR of Pitt Street and Barbara THOMPSON, baptised Sydney Town, and recorded in St Marys RC registers, with FOUR sponsors : Michael BYRNE, Catherine BYRNE, William ROWEN, Catherine EVANS. Date of baptism 5 June 1823.
Note, this baptism ceremony seems to have occurred in Sydney Town. There was a small chapel constructed for R.C. ceremonies from private funding, including from the rank and file of the 48th Regiment of Foot whose tour of duty as garrison forces in NSW and VDL concluded 1824, but some were being sent to India in 1821... Some of the 48th took their discharge in NSW, and MANY in the 48th were Roman Catholic. - See the late Clem Sargent's definitive book - The Colonial Garrison, 1817-1824: The 48th Foot, the Northamptonshire Regiment in the Colony of New South Wales
Re the small chapel - see the NSW State Library and NSW State Parliament archives. Also a short paragraph here: https://www2.sl.nsw.gov.au/archive/discover_collections/history_nation/religion/catholics/cathedral/index.html
JM
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why did they marry so quickly? - Well, umm .... there was a lack of eligible females and a huge over supply of eligible males. Perhaps the ratio was 6 eligible males for 1 eligible female.
So basically, a female of marriageable age, who CAME FREE could line them up and make her selection. If the male was under any form of bond (i.e. a convict or otherwise assigned to a Master), HE could not marry WITHOUT permission of the NSW Governor. So, it seems to me that applying in early May and marrying in mid June would be pointing to the couple, Michael BYRNE and Catherine DUNN.
JM
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Mary Dunn, age 60 in 1828 census, does not appear in the 1841 census, so she probably died in the 1830s.
A couple of possible burials recorded on NSW BMD.
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Yes, but the 1841 NSW census is NOT ALL THERE. Particularly a great deal of what is the current Sydney CBD is lost for ever (a fire, Botanic Gardens, which took out much of the vast admin records from the penal era, I have written about that at RChat too). It is better to look for a burial at Devonshire Street, and for a transfer circa 1901. BDA can assist there too.
JM
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Hi JM
You maybe the correct person to ask this question to. What are the possible reason's that there is NO burial record for EITHER Michael BYRNE (c August 1827) AND Catherine DUNN/BYRNE! Having said that I will delve more into MARY Dunn, possibly buried together!
I have just received Michaels probate record and it states:- ' sum of 100 pounds excepting only a portion to be set aside for the purpose already specified and it is my intention and request that the remains of my late wife be removed from its present place to the Catholic burial ground and entombed with my own in a vault which is to be constructed of 12 feet long and 6 feet in breadth as a family repository hereafter."
So looking at this it seems that Michaels wife (CATHERINE???) was buried ?? Where then moved to can I assume Devonshire St! No re internment
Moving forward now thanks to your information I will look for CATHERINE DUNN in the other couple of musters she may appear on. Regards Dianna
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Permission to marry at Liverpool?? Incorrect!! Catherine Dunn
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Hi Dianna,
Until 1 March 1856, there was NO requirement by the civil authorities for baptism, burial or marriage records to actual record the NAMES of the people involved. Also the civil authorities did NOT impose any compulsory requirements as to the church authorities KEEPING their own records. So any denomination and any other faith (Sydney Town was not just for Church folk, there were Muslims, Pagans, Jews, and other faiths, and even those 'without'... :D
The NSW BDM Early Church Records (those with "V" as part of their reference number) have NEVER EVER promoted themselves as being the complete set of bdms for that pre civil registration era.
We also need to accept that there are flaws in the NSW BDM online index and that it has been mis-understood by some of the commercial websites who have attempted to merge various versions of puterised datasets across the different NSW sets of records and added the datasets from each of the other British Colonies that became one colony - Australia - in 1901.
The person responsible for seeing that the £100 set aside from Michael's probate for his own entombment - ummm - Catholic burial ground - well it may have been Devonshire Street, but you could double check by approaching St Marys Cathedral ARCHIVIST who may need some time to check if there could be a vault in or about St Marys itself. Likely you may need to help fund that depth of research. I am sure that the archivist would need copy of the probate record and the likely date -month and year or at least year- for Michael's death.
JM
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Permission to marry at Liverpool?? Incorrect!! Catherine Dunn
Many thanks, so there's likely at least TWO lasses named Catherine DUNN in that same year, marrying in NSW. Well sorted.
ADD, that actually helps your quest for Michael BYRNE ... so their marriage was NOT involving either party under any kind of bond. :)
JM
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I just noticed the connection. Michael Byrne convict on the Minerva 1800 - same ship as his best man at the wedding, Farrell Cuff.
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HI Neale Thanks yes I follow Farrell Cuffe as well as my Michael as they seem to have been at least associates (perhaps friends). They were on the Minerva together and the ship "Lively" (Captain Dobson) as well. Horrible experience there apparently.
Farrel was a teacher. I suspect he may have even taught Michaels son William (perhaps)
Also they were involved (suspected??) of the attempted uprising in 1800 Toongabbie, both sent to Norfolk Island. Hope to compile all of this one day. Just keep collecting documents so far LOL.
That is why I'm always so happy to receive a snippet of information on him.
It does make me sad though when I cannot find him buried anywhere?? (not so far anyway) would love to visit him. Many thanks for your input as usual. Dianna
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Currently my husband and I are driving various several very ancient (all born NSW more than 100 years ago) but living family members back to their own homes after a huge family gathering at our own home over the Easter break.
We are having a 'pit stop'... on the New England Highway, heading to Tamworth for sleep over this evening then pushing on further !
So, while the others are all queueing up, I have opened my laptop, and I share: (regarding where to find graves etc in Sydney Town ... when it was a penal colony. )
https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/history/old-sydney-burial-ground
There's excel spreadsheet :D and a word document citing sources.
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW112563753
Michael Byrne Date of death [not known], Granted on 7 August 1827 - so Michael died earlier than August 1827, and from Dianna's post re that grant, he was a widower ... so Catherine DUNN died before him.
JM
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Hi JM Thanks for that. Now looking a bit more into MARY DUNN funny, it seems the convict that was assigned to her in 1823 is a JOHN DUNN!!! coincidence??
Yes it seems that Catherine died c 1826 (ish) have not located her on the 1825?? muster.
Fun! Hope you and the elderly rellies get there safely. We can speak more when you have time much appreciated. I will check the data base for Mary DUNN on the Devonshire St. Cemetery data base.
Wonder if this JOHN DUNN per Shipley (2) is her son! There is a JOHN SMITH per Shipley but his assignments etc don't match up! Will press on. LOL Thanks for taking the time. Dianna
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https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/ADLIB_RNSW112563753
Michael Byrne Date of death [not known], Granted on 7 August 1827 - so Michael died earlier than August 1827, and from Dianna's post re that grant, he was a widower ... so Catherine DUNN died before him.
I just received this probate package two day's ago. Still have to do a bit of enhancing on it and print it all out. D
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Is this the right man ?
His son William asks for claims on his estate.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2189092
Sue
Sounds like a fantastic weekend JM. You are very lucky to be able to draw on their firsthand experiences.
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Hi Sue Yes that is the son William in the newspaper. Ended up there were 7 properties in Sydney around King and Pitt streets. Every time I go into the city I look at that corner and think of what it would be worth now and how incredibly it has changed.
Some more properties in Bargo too. Still chasing up on those. Fun!! Dianna
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hi
just found roots chat . wondering what you have found . My ancestor Richard Byrne was imprisoned with Farrel Cuffe , Brady and others at Newgate Prison , then on the Lively and then transported on the Minerva and involved in Castle Hill rebellion and ended up on Norfolk Island . General Holt came on Minerva and also sent to Norfolk . What do you know about this Michael Byrne , maybe he is a relative . I have copy of sURGEONS DIARY ON Minerva . Prisoners were in a bad way , refused to sail until they were fit