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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Joby86 on Tuesday 19 April 22 20:30 BST (UK)
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Hi folks,
I am trying to find out who my grandmother's biological parents were. My grandmother was born in Birmingham, UK 1934 with the surname, SMITH and was as far as I know, illegitimate and was adopted by a family by the name of PALMER in 1936 in Staffordshire, UK and grew up in Staffordshire. I have got a copy of her adoption certificate, my wife is on ancestry site and I search many forums etc in the hope of getting somewhere but struggling..... can anyone please help me??!! Lol
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Had you considered taking a DNA test?
Fay
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Have you been able to obtain the original birth certificate.?
https://www.gov.uk/adoption-records
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DNA is the only possible next step I think and no, I am not exactly sure what cert to get due to the surname SMITH from Birmingham and maybe a pointless exercise but again, my knowledge is very poor on theses things and have only began researching recently. I looked on an ancestry site but it made my head a little sore! lol
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You say “was illegitimate as far as I know”
Is your grandmother deceased? If so - what was her exact birth date? If she died after 1969 it will be on her death cert.
What was her christian name?
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Her birth date is 14/02/1934 in Birmingham as far as I know and she died 08/02/2004. She was adopted in 1936 and had the surname, PALMER following that but I believe she was born FREDA SMITH but how true I do not know. There is a listing on GRO for a Freda Smith born Birmingham M quarter 1934, volume 06D, page 240 but that is where I'm currently at
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The birth registration you refer to for Freda Smith gives mothers maiden name of Smith, so possibly mother unmarried.
It might be worthwhile sending for a copy of that certificate which you can order from the GRO site and request a PDF copy for £7 which they will send you a link to your e mail address in order to view it.
What information do you have on adoption certificate.
Fay
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Not a lot really, just the date of the adoption, the name and address of the adoptive parents and the court that dealt with it but the place is no longer there
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She is with her adoptive parents on the 1939 register & somebody has notified corrections to the entry who may have an interest in the family. Have you seen the 1939 entry?
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The 1939 register suggests her original surname might have been Lander.
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In 1939 she was 5 years old, living in a place called Wednesbury and named Palmer. She became Lander years later when she married my grandfather Albert Robert Lander. I know she was in All Saint's Hospital in Birmingham at some point after having my mother in 1967 but cannot find anything about that.
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I have this
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Lander was her married name
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Lander was her married name yes, before that/from 1936 she was Palmer but prior to that is the question. She always had the name LOUISA BRASSINGTON SMITH as who she suspected her birth mother was but where she got that from I sadly do not know. My wife seems to think that she was in fact a blood relative to her adoptive mother but again I have no idea how factual that is.
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Unsure how much use this is lol
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I think you are referring to her adoption certificate - not her adoption file. The file should have more details of her origins
If you only have the certificate - how have you arrived at her birth name being Smith & her birthplace Birmingham
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I am referring to the adoption certificate yes, I haven't the first clue how to obtain the adoption file. This is what I mean, I really am clueless as to what steps I should take for the best as I am so confused. The court that dealt with the adoption is no longer existant, I know pretty much everything about her post 1936 but I need someone to literally tell me what to do step by step because my head is getting a little worn out thinking of the who/the what/the where and the how of the possibilities lol
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@CaroleW merely by other members of other sites assisting
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She may not even be named SMITH which is yet another thing that confuses me lol
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Lander was her married name yes, before that/from 1936 she was Palmer but prior to that is the question. She always had the name LOUISA BRASSINGTON SMITH as who she suspected her birth mother was but where she got that from I sadly do not know. My wife seems to think that she was in fact a blood relative to her adoptive mother but again I have no idea how factual that is.
Don’t know if this person is of interest
Polling district or place Washwood Heath
Record set England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1910-1932
Constituency P B of Birmingham, Erdington Division
Louisa Brassington Smith
Year 1931
address 22 Stanley Road, also at same address James Vincent Hardy Andrew
There this birth entry
SMITH, LOUISA BRASSINGTON mmn SHEMILT
GRO Reference: 1908 S Quarter in STOKE UPON TRENT Volume 06B Page 248
Edit to add
possible marriage & death
Louisa Brassington Smith
Marriage Date: 1936
Marriage Church: All Saints
Marriage Place: Milwich, Staffordshire, England
Registration District: Stafford
Spouse: Harry James Gilbert
Louisa Brassington Gilbert
Death Age: 88
Birth Date: 14 Aug 1908
Registration Date: Mar 1997
Registration District: Stoke On Trent
Inferred County: Staffordshire
Register Number: D56F
District and Subdistrict: 7371D
Entry Number: 26
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How do I find out if she had a daughter in 1934?
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There are only 2 ways - DNA or apply for her full adoption records. See link posted by Pauline in reply 2
If your mother or one of her siblings is still alive - it's probably best one if them apply as a direct first line descendant
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My mother is alive yes and DNA is a plan yes. Thank you all SO much for your responses and advice x
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Louisa is on the 1939 register and there is one redacted entry indicating there was a child who may still be alive
However - it's uncertain if Louisa is the right person so it's best to go down the DNA or adoption records route & establish the facts first
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There is a Louisa Brassington Smith tree on Ancestry but it shows no known children in relation to her marriage
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There is a woman by the name of, Annie Palmer Collett (known as Nellie) who was the sister of my grandmother's adoptive mother, Dora Mercy Collet and there is some possibility that she was the mother and Dora and Thomas Wilson Palmer (who she married) adopted my grandmother
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There is a Collett/Collett birth on freebmd in the March qtr 1934 you may want to bear in mind. There doesn't appear to be any trace of her after that entry. No marriage & no death.
However - her mother may have married & she took her stepfathers surname or - she also may have been adopted
Too much speculation can lead you down completely the wrong path so you need to start with the basics - DNA or applying for her full adoption file
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In 1939 she was 5 years old, living in a place called Wednesbury and named Palmer.
I know she was in All Saint's Hospital in Birmingham at some point after having my mother in 1967 but cannot find anything about that.
You won't find anything for 1967 unless Electoral Rolls.
Apart from that, there will be no record of her birth name on any hospital records as she was adopted & brought up by her adoptive name & surname.
Equally, Adoption birth records are not on the usual GRO index, they're a separate index.
Annie
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@Rosinish/Annie,
Separate index? Could you please expand on that?
She wasn't adopted until she was 2 years old
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@Rosinish/Annie,
Separate index? Could you please expand on that?
She wasn't adopted until she was 2 years old
You know what her adoptive name is, have you found an entry on the GRO for her with that name 2 yrs after she was born i.e. when she was 're-registered' in her adoptive/new name & surname?
The Adoption Registers & Still Birth Registers aren't available to the public like the GRO Birth Index is, all are separate.
Annie
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She was Palmer from 1936 up until she married my grandfather and became Lander, its the period between her birth in 1934 and her adoption in 1936 that is the question.
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its the period between her birth in 1934 and her adoption in 1936 that is the question.
I'm unsure of the 'question' between 1934 & 1936 i.e. what you mean? sorry.
Annie
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"'occasional copy' in the search results...
These are going to be instances where the original registration has been amended in some way, requiring an “occasional copy” to be sent to the Registrar General (ie to supersede the original Quarterly Certified Copy).
They won’t be late registrations, which would be sent in with the Quarterly Certified returns for the relevant quarter."
If this was my dilemma, with the time it would take to order a DNA Kit, receive it, return it then await the results, for the price of the original BC, I'd order it!
Annie
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There is a woman by the name of, Annie Palmer Collett (known as Nellie) who was the sister of my grandmother's adoptive mother, Dora Mercy Collet and there is some possibility that she was the mother and Dora and Thomas Wilson Palmer (who she married) adopted my grandmother
For info.
She’s Nancy Palmer Collett b 1905 on 1921 census living in Parish of Wednesbury with her sister Dora Mercy b1900 and their parents Richard Henry Collett & Eliza Annie ( nee PALMER)
1939 Register Annie Palmer WOOD living with her parents and husband and
one other person whose record is closed
Annie P Collett
Sep 1938 Wednesbury Staffordshire
Spouse: Walter T Wood
Volume Number: 6b Page Number: 2245
West Midlands BMD
COLLETT Annie P
WOOD Walter T
1938 Wednesbury, St Bartholomew
COLLETT Dora M
PALMER Thomas W
1930 Wednesbury, St Bartholomew
Annie Palmer Wood Death Age: 85 Birth 4 Mar 1905
Mar 1990 Sandwell West Midlands
Volume: 33 Page: 1317
Died 27 Feb 1990 of 16 Pritchard St Wednesbury
Administration with Will Birmingham 26 March
Parents married 25 Dec 1899 Wednesbury, St Paul
Eliza Ann Palmer Age: 23
Residence Place: 8 Vicarage Road
Father: Josiah Palmer
Spouse: Richard Henry Collett
Residence Place: Hobbis Hole
Religion: Anglican
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Thank you folks, I still could do with someone suggesting what my best next steps are based on recent information kindly provided
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DNA or apply for her full adoption file Everything else is speculation until you do one or the othe. You need to start with what you know - her birthdate & her adoption details.
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Which local authority should I contact or would it be GRO? Do I apply for FREDA SMITH born Birmingham 1934andhope that's the one or do I need to do something totally different? Forgive my constant asking but the more info I get, the more my head turns into what is best described as a dog chasing its own tail lol
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IF at any point you wish to order a birth or deaths certificate go straight to the GRO
www.GRO.gov.uk
However, you have been advised to apply for the adoption file, which is the way to go.
Pauline
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Ive just checked the GRO website and unfortunately there is not the option to order the birth certificate as a PDF which is cheaper.
However I would still order from the GRO which will cost you £11, rather than ordering directly from Birmingham as there is a 12 week waiting time if ordered from Birmingham.
Fay
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Thank you PaulineJ, where do I apply for the adoption file? I know she was adopted in 1936 at a court in the county of Staffordshire as I have a copy of the adoption certificate but the court is no longer there plus I am under the impression that the adoption files are not accessible until 100 years after the adoption but I may be wrong lol
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Thank you PaulineJ, where do I apply for the adoption file? I know she was adopted in 1936 at a court in the county of Staffordshire as I have a copy of the adoption certificate but the court is no longer there plus I am under the impression that the adoption files are not accessible until 100 years after the adoption but I may be wrong lol
Please see Reply #2, link to all you need for the process for your mother to apply for her birth cert. then from there you can contact your local council (Adoption Services) where you can ask for advice on obtaining the Adoption Files as all Councils are linked up nowadays, providing you live in England/Wales.
Annie
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Thank you Annie
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This should be useful, may get the ball rolling while you're waiting on your mother's birth cert...
http://www.adoptionsearchreunion.org.uk/search/adoptionrecords/dbsearchnew.htm
Annie
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I've looked at that site and everytime I try and search using the categories offered, I have responses saying there is nothing coming up
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I've looked at that site and everytime I try and search using the categories offered, I have responses saying there is nothing coming up
If you type in Staffordshire or the name you already have from the adoption cert. as your 'Keyword' this will bring up a list of the places where the court records may be accessed.
An email with all the info. you have to date should get a response of some sort.
You can tell them you're in the process of applying for your mother's original birth cert. (prior to adoption).
Annie
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Thank you again for your response and guidance
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What was the name of the court on the adoption cert?
Annie
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Darlaston Juvenile Court, Petty sessions division of Wednesbury in the county of Stafford in 1936 by a CHAS M WATTS (registrar)
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I think the place to begin would be...
archives_service@sandwell.gov.uk
Post all details known / in process to enquire what the procedure would be.
Good luck & let us know what transpires.
Annie
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Thank you Annie and I sure will! :)