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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Rossdal3 on Friday 15 April 22 00:58 BST (UK)
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Hi all new and older members,
I posted in 2011 about trying to find my Holdsworth family. I can only trace them back to Charles Holdsworth born circa 1801 in Idle, according to the 1841 census. I descended through his son William, b. 1819 according to the paper trail. Charles appears in that census and doesn’t show again. No BDM paper trail, for Charles. We bought all death certificates for a Charles up to the 1851 census (he doesn’t appear on it). No marriage listing for William’s mother. No birth listing for William. I have William’s marriage certificate to Mary Gill.
Four years ago my sisters and I took DNA test of several different sites. At this point we have become quite familiar with genetic genealogy, even helping adoptees to identify birth families, but we cannot solve the puzzle of our complete lack of DNA matches on our Holdsworth line.
We have found multiple DNA matches to each of Mother’s family surnames back to Charles Henry Holdsworth, but we have nothing that proves genetically that William Holdsworth 1819 or Charles Holdsworth 1801 are linked.
I have one small DNA match with the surname Holdsworth, my middle sister has none at all and my youngest sister has two. I am fresh out of ideas to continue my searching. We don’t even have mystery groups of any significance, with DNA matches. Any advice about how to proceed from here will be gratefully accepted.
Kind regards,
Jill Ross
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Where did you get the middle name Henry from?
All records found so far just list him as Charles Holdsworth
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Using the GRO index there are 2 Susannah Holdsworth registered Bradford
Susannah 1837 with mother's maiden name Hornby.
Susanah 1838 registered Bradford mother's maiden name Wilkinson
There is a death for a Susan Holdsworth age 1 1/2 buried 11 January 1840 abode Idle. Based on age I would say it's the 1838 child.
All other children are prior to civil registration.
The children could have 2 different mothers. There is a gap of 4 years between Maria and Charles.
You know Charles and Harriet are the children of Charles and Mary from the baptisms.
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Was Charles a tenant farmer, are there records of his lease.
Was the farm put up for lease after his death. Check newspapers
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At Otley on 24 July 1833 Charles Holdsworth - Farmer married Mary Hornby spinster
He could not write she signed her name, witness Thomas Cawood and Thomas Longfield.
Thomas Longfield signs many on the page so not a relative or close friend.
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Using the GRO index there are 2 Susannah Holdsworth registered Bradford
Susannah 1837 with mother's maiden name Hornby.
Susanah 1838 registered Bradford mother's maiden name Wilkinson
There is a death for a Susan Holdsworth age 1 1/2 buried 11 January 1840 abode Idle. Based on age I would say it's the 1838 child.
Thanks so much for your response!
Yes I have paper trail docs to Susannah, she was the daughter of Charles 1801 and Mary Hornby, who was Charles second wife. William was born in 1819 and Charles and Mary Hornby were not married until 1833.
That is the main issue I face, the others are born before registrations.
All other children are prior to civil registration.
The children could have 2 different mothers. There is a gap of 4 years between Maria and Charles.
You know Charles and Harriet are the children of Charles and Mary from the baptisms.
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Was Charles a tenant farmer, are there records of his lease.
Was the farm put up for lease after his death. Check newspapers
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Hi there,
I have Susannah’s death certificate. She died in 1858 age 20 years. Her Mother died 1-2 months after she was born in 1838.
Thanks
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Where did you get the middle name Henry from?
All records found so far just list him as Charles Holdsworth
The Charles Henry Holdsworth I refer to was my Gt Gt Grandfather, the son of William Holdsworth. he was born in 1849 in Bradford, the eldest of 5 children. He married Mary Gill, who we have multiple DNA matches through, but nothing through Charles Henry.
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Morning Jill!
Still chasing the Holdsworths then.
So for the benefit of new readers here is what we are looking at.
Piece HO 107/1298/7 ED11 Folios 32 - 36 Enumerator William Johnson
Simpson Green Idle
HOLDSWORTH Charles 40 Farmer
HOLDSWORTH William 20 Wool Comber
HOLDSWORTH Thomas 20 Wool Comber
HOLDSWORTH Mary 18 Wool Comber
HOLDSWORTH Ann 15
HOLDSWORTH Maria 10
HOLDSWORTH Charles 6
HOLDSWORTH Harriet 5
HOLDSWORTH Susannah 3
HOLDSWORTH Jonas 45 Cart Driver
Brian
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So your William had a different mother than Charles, Harriet and Susannah.
Is Maria perhaps the daughter of Jonas
bap 27 July 1831 of Jonas and Hannah at Bradford
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Morning Jill!
Still chasing the Holdsworths then.
So for the benefit of new readers here is what we are looking at.
Piece HO 107/1298/7 ED11 Folios 32 - 36 Enumerator William Johnson
Simpson Green Idle
HOLDSWORTH Charles 40 Farmer
HOLDSWORTH William 20 Wool Comber
HOLDSWORTH Thomas 20 Wool Comber
HOLDSWORTH Mary 18 Wool Comber
HOLDSWORTH Ann 15
HOLDSWORTH Maria 10
HOLDSWORTH Charles 6
HOLDSWORTH Harriet 5
HOLDSWORTH Susannah 3
HOLDSWORTH Jonas 45 Cart Driver
Brian
Thanks for the recap Brian! Yes still trying to work out who we are. We still have nothing on our Holdsworth side and since it’s my maiden name, I find it frustrating. I’ve given up on Charles a few times, but he keeps drawing me back in 🤣.
He’s in the Poll books for 1835, in Simpson Green
He appears in Idle in 1841 census
There’s a newspaper clip about a stolen horse in the newspaper in 1841
He gets married the second time in Otley in 1833
That’s it! I’m beginning to think that he may have changed his name at some stage.
Myself and my 2 sisters have loaded our DNA into every site and we have found nothing proving a genetic link to either Charles 1801 or William 1819.
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So your William had a different mother than Charles, Harriet and Susannah.
Is Maria perhaps the daughter of Jonas
bap 27 July 1831 of Jonas and Hannah at Bradford
Hi again,
We are pretty sure that William 1801 had a different Mother. The youngest sibling Maria was born in 1831 and many years ago my cousin found a death listing in the Calverley.info website for a Mary Holdsworth who died in 1832. I haven’t been able to find that listing again since the website was updated quite a few years ago now. The fact that Charles remarried in 1833 possible supports that being his first wife.
Eldest sister Mary 1822 married John Ibbotson and Jonas Holdsworth age 66 is living with them on the
1861 census and is listed as ‘Uncle”.
On the 1851 census Mary and John Ibbotson are listed with Harriet and Susannah, they have the surname Ibbotson, but I think they are probably the Harriet and Susannah listed in the 1841 census with the Holdsworth surname. Interestingly Harriet is listed as a 16 year old son whose occupation is a Delver 🤷♀️. Charles their brother born 1835 is visiting a friend in Scarborough on the 1851 census. So I think that it’s fair to say that Charles 1801 had died before then, but my cousin bought every death certificate over the year between 1841-1851 and we got nothing close at all. It makes me wonder whether he had changed his name at some point.
To answer your question I have wondered if Jonas may have been a father to one or more of the children, but he consistently lists himself as unmarried on the census records and when we try to build a tree for him we don’t get any traction.
Another odd thing is that Charles 1801 married Mary Hornby in Otley and William 1819 married Mary Gill in Otley. Given they consistently say they are from Idle (including Mary Gill) I’m not sure why. Unless they were a nonconformist religion. I have noticed that many of our mystery DNA matches are connected to the Latter Day Saints. I have nothing tangible as evidence though.
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Hi,
You've obviously done a huge amount of research and may well have seen this but a Joseph Ingram was apprehended for a 'swindle' during which he used the named Charles Henry Holdsworth. The report is from 1849 so I'm not sure how it fits with your family timeline but the mis-use of the name is interesting. The report starts at the top of column 3.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000193/18490929/032/0007
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Hi,
You've obviously done a huge amount of research and may well have seen this but a Joseph Ingram was apprehended for a 'swindle' during which he used the named Charles Henry Holdsworth. The report is from 1849 so I'm not sure how it fits with your family timeline but the mis-use of the name is interesting. The report starts at the top of column 3.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000193/18490929/032/0007
Thanks for this link I will check it out. That is the one area of research I’m pretty weak in. I’m hopeless as finding newspaper information.
Kind regards,
Jill
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You state that Jonas Holdsworth shown is on the 1841 census with Charles Holdsworth is listed as uncle on the 1861 census with a John and Mary Ibbotson in Idle.
John Ibbotson married Mary Holdsworth in 1843.
Jonas’ birth place is stated as Heaton. I think Jonas and Charles are brothers so perhaps worth looking for Holdsworth baptisms in Heaton.
Charles may have moved to Idle when he got his farm there. The 1841 census only gives the county of birth.
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Also a John H'worth living in Idle, b Heaton abt 1810, might be related. He's married to Alice (Murgatroyd I think)
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Hi,
You've obviously done a huge amount of research and may well have seen this but a Joseph Ingram was apprehended for a 'swindle' during which he used the named Charles Henry Holdsworth. The report is from 1849 so I'm not sure how it fits with your family timeline but the mis-use of the name is interesting. The report starts at the top of column 3.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000193/18490929/032/0007
Thanks for this article. I’m not sure if or how it could fit into my family, but it and in fact that whole page of news, certainly shows how common swindling was. It’s becoming the only thing that makes sense.
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Also a John H'worth living in Idle, b Heaton abt 1810, might be related. He's married to Alice (Murgatroyd I think)
The Holdsworth name was prolific in the 19th and 20th centuries in Yorkshire. Heaton was the area many of my relatives lived, but only my line appear to use the name Charles and I’ve never found a parish register birth for a Charles that fit. William 1819 said on his marriage certificate that his Father was Charles a Farmer, but there are no records that actually support this, not that I can find anyway.
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I do find looking at old newspapers fascinating. Some things are so similar and some so different.
I've had another quick search just on Charles rather than Charles Henry and it turned up this from 1841 - bottom of column 2 https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000336/18411023/026/0008
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Thanks for that newspaper clip. I have his imprisonment court documentation and the fact that he was in partnership with Jonas substantiates this is the correct William. This has forced me back to William 1819’s timeline, which is interesting. The imprisonment accounts for why he married Mary Gill in September 1842, as he would only just be out of prison by then. It may have been the family shame that meant they married in Otley and then went to live in Bradford (1851 census).
The timeline then gets interesting again, because although William and Mary go on to have 5 children that I have records for, the first child Charles Henry was not born until 1849, a good 6.5 years after they got married. It could be that he got himself into more trouble with the law perhaps. I’m thinking they were a very dodgy family 🤣
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Who is the William Gill Holdsworth buried in Otley 30 December 1844 age 25?
DOB circa 1819
GRO has age 24
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The marriages of the children, all say father Charles Holdsworth - Farmer
Ann to Robinson Halliday 1845
Mary to John Ibbotson 1843
Harriet to James Smith 1856
Charles to Martha Elizabeth Garth 1853
William to Mary Gill 1842
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Who is the William Gill Holdsworth buried in Otley 30 December 1844 age 25?
DOB circa 1819
GRO has age 24
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The marriages of the children, all say father Charles Holdsworth - Farmer
Ann to Robinson Halliday 1845
Mary to John Ibbotson 1843
Harriet to James Smith 1856
Charles to Martha Elizabeth Garth 1853
William to Mary Gill 1842
My sister and I built out a tree for William Gill Holdsworth from Otley, as he made far more sense. We think there must be some connection, but haven’t been able to prove it.
This William b.1820 d.1844, is the son of William Holdsworth b. 1785, who also married a Mary Gill b. 1787. Our William Holdsworth b. 1819 still appears on the census documents with his family through to 1871, the year he died.
I accept that William 1819 and his siblings all name Charles as their Father on their marriage certs. I also have a half great uncle who named his Grandfather as his Father on his marriage certificate. Both he and my Gt Grandmother were illegitimate, born 10 years apart and he was raised by his Grandfather. Either he named him to spare the stigma, or he legitimately thought his Grandfather was his Father. Even in this day and age this stuff happens. I have a friend who grew up thinking that her biological Mum was her older sister. She was an adult when she found out the truth.
I guess we’ll be speculating on this for a long time. One thing we do have certainty of, is that we all 3 sisters have multiple DNA matches on Ancestry, to the sisters of Mary Gill (Hannah and Martha), who married William Holdsworth 1819. We can follow the paper trail all the way through. We have absolutely no matches to the Holdsworth side at all. If Charles was our Biological 4th Grandfather then I’m guessing that he had changed his name at some point.
Yesterday I found a criminal record for Charles 1835, son of Charles 1801. He was charged for physically assaulting his wife and it looked like he had knocked out a front tooth and bloodied her face. The more I find out the more I think that these were not good people 🤷♀️