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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: CLP04893824 on Saturday 09 April 22 13:09 BST (UK)
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Here's a tough one: I'm helping members of the extended GASSIOT family make sense of research done in 1980s and before. What can this mean -
John Peter Gassiot and "his much younger" brother Francis Joseph Gassiot first appear in Church of England records in 1816. At this time they were assigned as scribes in the Carshalton Barony, Borough of Surrey, City of London. Both men were unmarried at the time.
That is taken from notes left by a family member based in America, who served with the navy and did research while on postings. He has now died and the family only have access to a summary note from 1984. The geography has clearly got jumbled, but it must be based on something seen, perhaps secondary. But what?? Much of his other research stacks up, even if he made mistakes (don't we all!) or misunderstood some things.
Incidentally I've dated John Peter as aged 18 in 1816 and he dated Francis as aged 7 - rather young to be a "scribe". (I'm still looking for a birth record for him - to complicate things, the family is French / Spanish origin and John Peter was baptised as a catholic)
Any and all insights much appreciated....
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Ancestry has a Spanish baptism index for
Francisco Joseph Geroni Gassiot Vial
Birth & baptism same day 12 Nov 1795
Parents Ramon Gassiot & Francisca Vial.
Image is on FS film 1171838
Is that the same family?
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Interesting! Could very well be part of the extended family, given timing and names, perhaps a cousin. The previous research locates the family origins to Spain and France, with the father of the two boys coming to London around 1790. I'm trying to bottom out the family here before trying to go back another generation. And that 1816 reference is the only concrete mention of Francis - who later emigrated to America, hence the interest in him.
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What are the names of John Peter’s parents?
Added. Got them
John Peter & Henrietta/Harriet Dixon
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There is this Church of Scotland baptism
GASSIOT
SAMUEL
JOHN PETER/GASSIOT HARRIET DIXON FR2786 (FR2786)
M
30/05/1813
685/1
550 74
Edinburgh
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Thank you - always good to get a second pair of eyes. Samuel is a strange one, the original research didn't pick him up, perhaps because he was looking in London not Scotland, but I can't find a later mention. I presumed an infant death, but then saw the register I was looking at was compiled in 1820. All very odd. Actually, if Francis was born in 1809, I reckon the family would have been in Edinburgh by then (from other records), which makes the alleged 1816 appearance of the brothers in London so odd. So it all comes back to that.
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There is this Church of Scotland baptism
GASSIOT
SAMUEL
JOHN PETER/GASSIOT HARRIET DIXON FR2786 (FR2786)
M
30/05/1813
685/1
550 74
Edinburgh
The Caledonian Mercury (1808, 1812. 1813, 1815) contains advertisements for French and Spanish language classes run by Mr Gassiot/Messrs Gassiot and Son. The Edinburgh Post Office Directory calls him J Gassiot teacher of European languages. There does not seem to be an entry in the directory after 1816-17.
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I realise this is not the question you are asking. But how have you “undone”. Samuel born 1813 and Peter born 1799 and the Peter Gassiot/Samuel Dixon who married Sarah Ware
It seems odd for Peter Gassiot to be alias Samuel Dixon if he had a brother named Samuel.
Back to your actual question
Nothing in the Lambeth Palace library catalogue but it does say that is being added to all the time.
What is the original source information that Francis was born 1809? And that his parents are John Peter & Henrietta?
Passport application 1828 USA. Age 26. So born 1802
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rg3/
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England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Joannes Petrus Gassiot
Birth date 02 Apr 1797
Southwark, St George's Cathedral, Surrey
Father's name John Peter Gassiot
Mother's first name(s) Henriettae
Parents married in Leeds in March 1795. Bride's name: Harriet Dixon. Residence: London.
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Here's a 1799 baptism:
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
Petrus Gassiot
Birth date 06 May 1799
Southwark, St George's Cathedral, Surrey
Father's name John Peter Gassiot
Mother's first name(s) Henriettae
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I’ve been wondering (since there is no actual death for Francis), if Peter and Francis were the same person. Since Francis had ship/s.
But I don’t think they can be. Too many children both sides of the Atlantic.
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It seems odd for Peter Gassiot to be alias Samuel Dixon if he had a brother named Samuel.
Still confusing, but here's a possibly relevant TNA record:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10048017
Samuel Dixon alias Peter Gassiot, born: Bishopsgate, Middlesex; Age at attestation: 21.
Attested: Woolwich; Joined in 1820; Discharge reason: Served 22 years; Discharge year: 1842.
So would this be the chap born in 1799? Born in Bishopsgate, and baptised in Southwark?
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In which case, is this also him? There's also an 1862 Probate Index record for him.
Deaths Mar 1862
Gassiot Peter Greenwich 1d 488
GASSIOT Peter Samuel Dixon Greenwich 1d 47[41]
Gassiot Peter Samuel Dixon Greenwich 1d 476
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Yes, that’s who I was looking at,
There is no will. It’s just an administration.
He is a royal marine at his marriage to Sarah WARE, and a Greenwich pensioner. (FindMyPast and census)
Trees have this text re Francis
“
FRANCIS GASSIOT lived in the home of his brother JOHN PETER for 10 years. In 1828, at the age of 19, he discovered that a future marriage between himself and a cousin of his brother's wife, a member of the WARE family of Suffolk had been arranged. Upon this discover, with which he found distate, he left for America. He landed in Philidelphia in November 1828, where his arrival was documented in offical records as: "FRANCIS GASSIOT, of France, arrived from Carshalton in London." He is the only emigrant to ever arrive anywhere in the United States (as far as can be determined by offical recores) with the GASSIOT surname.“
The Ware connection is why I was wondering if Peter and Francis could be the same man
I cannot see that Nov 1828 immigration record.
Edited to make a bit more sense (I hope!)
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This is great, thank you both.
Conscious you're travelling some of the ground I've covered - but finding some new things! (especially that 1828 passport for Francis) - let me give the background which I should have done first, apologies.
Taking a couple of steps back, my own focus is John Peter Gassiot, eldest surviving son, 1797-1877, a notable figure in Clapham, where I'm based. Am pretty confident about him / well researched.
I've also researched his mother, Harriet Dixon (B, M and D, probate etc) and his father John Peter Gassiot (only M, not birth in ?Fr/Sp, nor death ?here). I've found lots on his various failed wine import businesses, his move to Edinburgh perhaps to avoid creditors, and am guessing he died around mid 1820s (nothing found on that).
Their children were:
Peter b1796, presumed death before 1799
John Peter as above
Peter 1799-1862, life fully researched (Royal Marines, marriage, children, etc including his adoption of a family name on his mother's side)
Then there is Samuel, b1813 Edinburgh - ?died, a real mystery
and also two children cited in the original American research -
Marie, claimed birth 1801, no source cited, no records found
and Francis who went to America where there's an extended family.
Those catholic baptisms feel highly significant and explain the absence of the usual parish records except marriage (Samuel in Edinburgh is the outlier.) A baptism for Francis c1802 onwards would be a major breakthrough. I've trawled every single entry in the RC St George's register (hence found the earlier Peter one, mistranscribed).
There is an entry record for Francis in November 1828 into Philadelphia (no age) and lots in American sources thereafter, including this passport application from 1836 (no age): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1174/images/USM1371_1-0081?pId=1117654
There's also a New York entry record in 1833 where the cited age implies birth of 1804.
The 1828 passport application feels very significant and is not mentioned elsewhere as far as I know.
Hope that puts things into context and explains my focus on Francis and that strange reference to 1816 (and the claimed birth date as 1809).
At risk of overwhelming you, here's a write up which the family in America have of their origins. It's a mixture of facts and if not fiction, then misunderstanding and surmise. http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gassiot/genealogy/history/roger.htm
You can see the problem. So I'm trying to bottom out the English (and now Scottish) components. Tricky enough, before embarking on France and Spain. The American end looks well worked over, albeit differing names and dates.
Anyway, thanks again, keep the ideas coming - it's a tough one!
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Random thoughts.
It seems odd that Harriet Gassiot nee Dixon, does not mention any other children in her will.
So, one would assume Samuel in Scotland died. Before 1848.
It’s a very detailed Will. Surely, if Francis Joseph was her son, she would at least mention him, even if to say he wasn’t getting anything, or to give him a notional shilling.
Since you are in Clapham, would it be worth your while to go to Lambeth Palace Library and ask for their thoughts on that 1816 reference.
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Random thoughts are good (!)
#1 Yes, that sounds right and I'd discounted the Marie story on those grounds (if she was unmarried and in Leeds with mother she'd surely have had a mention). Samuel must have died young, otherwise there'd be some trace elsewhere. Francis is more tricky - alive but out of touch or estranged? Even if not estranged, in those days did you/could you leave money to overseas beneficiaries? Maybe just not practical.
# 2 Great idea, I shall do that, and there's the additional mention in that longer family history of the 1816 institution being a school, presumably church run.
Correction to my late night post - the baptism of the first son Peter (1796) was in Stepney, not Southwark. I've tried to track where the family were living, to link to a parish whether CofE or RC, but father was in and out of debtors prisons in London. From 1807 I've tracked them to Edinburgh.
The other correction is that the 1836 passport application does give an age. So now we have 1802, 1804 and 1805 for Francis birth (respectively from first passport 1828, New York arrival 1833, second passport 1836).
If only the original American researcher had named all his sources. The bottom line is as yet there's nothing concrete to tie Francis to the family here. I'm even wondering if it's significant brothers John Peter and Peter didn't include Francis in the naming of their own children (nor Samuel or Marie for that matter).
Just got to keep looking.
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It was only 1848. People could leave money to people in other countries no trouble. I have a 1795 American one leaving money and land to a son in England.
The son died in 1823, and there were at least two trips back to America between 1795 and 1823
It is, go course easier if the testator knows where they are. But I've seen another will, where they said something to the effect of " My son James beyond the seas, if he be still alive".
That longer history says Harriet died 1813 in a fire! When she plainly did not. I cannot even find the death that that could be.
The researcher must have seen something about the orphanage you wouldn't make a story like that up, But what it might be goodness knows. The other thing about that is, that if Harriet had died in 1813, John Peter would have been 16 which I think in those days would have meant he, at least, was considered well able to support himself.
Do the wills of any others of Harriet's family mention the Gassiots?
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That's interesting to learn about the wills - in which case, absence of Francis from Harriet's in 1848 is indeed significant.
On rest of family, I did look into her father - looks like a well established and moderately prosperous trading family in Yorkshire. His will simply left £200 to his unmarried daughters Mary and Martha. (As an aside, there's a question how Harriet from solid Yorkshire background ended up in London marrying an exotic wine trader from France / Spain, enemy nations at the time.)
I also looked at her brother Samuel Dixon, suspecting Peter changed his name as a result of a bequest. But he just left £200 to what looks like his own son, so no Gassiot cross over there as far as I can tell.
However there are lots of siblings and uncles/other branches, so worth me taking a good look. I was pleased to find an account of Harriet being buried in the family graveyard plot in Beeston - but no sign of John Peter the husband with her, so he's long gone and elsewhere.
And my sense on that whole fire and orphanage thing is similar to yours - doesn't fit known facts but not made up, so where's that coming from? I've done extensive newspaper key word searches for Gassiot, picked up lots about the business and Edinburgh (thanks to GR2 for checking on that), but nothing on a dramatic fire. Can't think where else to look.